Ignorance, Stupidity & Sheer Incompetence: The Continual Failure of "Modern" MMOs

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I'm not quite sure I understand your thought process here, it seems grossly misleading.

Simply transitioning to F2P doesn't reduce operating budgets or guarantee higher revenue (though it often does yield higher revenue). They would need to reduce operating costs first and foremost to the point where they could reduce no further without significantly harming the game. Then comes the business model transition and the hope that it will bring in higher revenue.

There's no guarantee that it will, though. Look at Champions Online. The game transitioned some years back, and has seen little to no support until the recently released patch. The game was barely breaking even (from what everyone could tell) both as P2P and F2P, F2P didn't do anything to significantly improve the quality of the game. Sure, it got some content patches for a while, but in recent years it's largely been left to stagnate simply because being F2P didn't really change their revenue stream very much.

You're right though, every company wants their MMO to blow up and be a big success as P2P. And most are too arrogant to investigate the possibilities of business model transitions before they launch, as they're so taken with their game and how everyone will love it. When you're working from the inside, you have an very different view of the rest of the world, and it unfortunately isn't a view grounded in the same reality that exists outside of your bubble.

To expand upon this: Cryptic probably though "If we go F2P, we will get more players coming in who will get hooked and either 1. sub or 2. buy cash shop classes." When their hypothesis turned out to be incorrect; they thought supporting CO was a lost cause (as they can't increase the profitability of it) and decided to pull their expert devs to work on STO. When STO's sub apparently wasn't working; they made the exact same hypothesis in that if they went F2P, they could recover/get more money.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

And ofcourse; they didn't remember CO. And so when STO failed, they pulled their development to work on Neverwinter, leaving behind a skeleton crew to put out a couple updates a year. They finally got the message, and simply kicked off the game with a F2P model from the get-go. Doesn't look like they are endeavoring on anymore projects, though.

I also have to concur with Edge; it's arrogance that blinds these companies. They think that their big name title is so big that everyone will play (SWTOR, ESO) and survive; or that their "revolutionary/old school game designs" will attract tons of players too (WS, Tera). It's utterly infuriating that no one inside the industry can stop and think.

[Bullettime]

One of the things with it is the time it takes to develop these games and the lead of the projects often being ex developers from other games, WoW especially.

Rift and Wildstar for example were formed by ex WoW developers who left or were cut for different reasons and had a goal of "making WoW but better." The problem is that they began their projects with 2004-2006 era designs. While they were spending years trying to recreate the magic of classic WoW, Blizzard was refining the mechanics and evolving with the gaming market.

Now both are fun games. But they're also chock full of massive design flaws that Blizzard and the community identified and were changed years ago. The game studios simply refuse and turn a blindeye to history, adamant that they're the ones who can finally do it "right."

edit: We won't see any sort of realistic competitor until a game tries to get ahead of the market. WoW was so successful because it didn't try to be an Everquest clone. It got ahead of the market and designed a game that would suit the players in the year it launched, not the year it started development, and could be tweaked and tuned to keep it up with the market. Many MMO launches in recent years were outdated and behind the times at their launch.

[Edge-]

And ofcourse; they didn't remember CO. And so when STO failed, they pulled their development to work on Neverwinter, leaving behind a skeleton crew to put out a couple updates a year. They finally got the message, and simply kicked off the game with a F2P model from the get-go. Doesn't look like they are endeavoring on anymore projects, though.

Oddly enough, STO is the most profitable game Cryptic/PWE (their owners) have right now, and they've put in an insane amount of time/work to make STO quite a good game given its 14 month development cycle (no, seriously, the game was made in 14 months).

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Oddly enough, STO is the most profitable game Cryptic/PWE (their owners) have right now, and they've put in an insane amount of time/work to make STO quite a good game given its 14 month development cycle (no, seriously, the game was made in 14 months).

As someone who actually subbed to the game; yes, that's a ton of work they've invested. But I also know that we stopped getting a ton of content after they went F2P. (obviously shifting around devs. Again)

[Lyese]

FF14 is probably one of the most profitable MMOs still on a sub, but that required an almost complete overhaul of the game. The game so far has been able to keep content coming, and singlehandedly pulled SE from losses to profits. That being said, it's still a mostly clunky game with byzantine mechanics, but the game is specifically designed to be casual friendly and appeal to the FF audience.

A lot of lessons can really be learned from Wildstar, but as long as the hardcore can treat it as a home and sub enough to keep it profitable, then it'll mostly be like a modern EQ/DAoC/FF11, MMOs of yore that still exist to this day.

[Edge-]

As someone who actually subbed to the game; yes, that's a ton of work they've invested. But I also know that we stopped getting a ton of content after they went F2P. (obviously shifting around devs. Again)

Really? I play casually and I feel as if between the content patches adding some cool things and now the upcoming Delta Rising expansion roughly a year or so after the Legacy of Romulus (both of which are free) that they give some pretty solid support to the game. And as a F2P player I've never really felt shit on or limited in any significant way.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Really? I play casually and I feel as if between the content patches adding some cool things and now the upcoming Delta Rising expansion roughly a year or so after the Legacy of Romulus (both of which are free) that they give some pretty solid support to the game. And as a F2P player I've never really felt shit on or limited in any significant way.

Way back during the subbed time; we got an update every month; two at the latest. And they were big: new boss battles (Classic Crystalline Entity, anyone?), new missions (Back then, we got the season arcs coming out at crazy speeds) and tons of new stuff all round. GM hosted events... it was really exciting. Then F2P came and everything grinded to a slow, and content seems to be under-developed. Back then; the new ships that came out could only be earned ingame, and you actually had to earn them. Now; all new ships are just instantly slapped onto the store and to get them ingame you don't earn them; you grind for them. I still love STO; but it certainly isn't the unusually high-quality MMO that I subbed to way back in 2010.

I suppose it's all just perspective, but it seems like when Cryptic is disappointed with one of their games and converts it; they just rip their experts away to work on the next project.

[prwraith]

I'd legit throw double / triple a monthly subscription price to play everquest 1 with updated graphics. Imo that game still hasn't been beat for sheer quality and quantity. There's more to do and collect in EQ1 then there is in any modern MMO.

[LazarusLong]

I wonder why almost no one mentions World of Tanks on this forums as an example.

[Venant]

Plottwist: It's investors/publishers not realizing that creative markets don't work the same as cleaning product/chips/soda/etc. markets and sadly COD is showing them that yes they can re-sell the same product in a new package (Ofcourse forgetting that COD doesn't compete with itself and lives on "Well my friend bought the new one and the servers of the old one will probably run empty so I better buy the new one") so they're telling Developers: "ZOMG WoW is printing money, make me something EXACTLY like that"

We need CoD and Madden based MMORPGs

[Gorsameth]

I wonder why almost no one mentions World of Tanks on this forums as an example.

Because World of Tanks is the same type of game as WoW and its ilk.

[cityguy193]

Wow isnt surviving.... The only reason it still exists, even after 12 straight quarters of straight decline and 50% of its "loyal" playerbase leaving is that it was so big to begin with. It was the right game at the right time. If WoW released even 1-2 years later than it did, you would call it a clone of "other mmo".

All mmos are clones of each other, wow is included. The entire genre is dying, and thinking wow is not part of the failures too is pure ignorance.

[Deleted]

It seems people have this wierd idea of revenue = quality of the game.

McDonalds/KFC/Burger Kings are probably the most profitable restaurants in the world. Does it mean their food is top-notch stellar quality? I dont think so.
Coca Cola is so universally acclaimed that the only competition it has left is H2O. Does it mean this drink is pinnacle of liquid pleasure? I dont think so.

Yeah sure... some MMOs do not appeal to mass market.
BUT THAT IS NOT THE FUCKING POINT.

The point is to provide nuiance experience to those who are tired of same ol'WoW.
Maybe there are people out there who like plot hunting and they dont need to be a dominant demographic to provide them with that service?
Maybe there are people out there who like attunements and they dont need to be a dominant demographic to provide them with that service?
Maybe there are people out there who like brutal game mechanics and they dont need to be a dominant demographic to provide them with that service?

Now then... have any of you considered that this JUST MIGHT BE the case with Wildstar and other MMOs mentioned here?
Or hell! Did any of you actually thought of those MMO existance as anything else but money making venture?

God! People these days!

[Deleted]

Wow isnt surviving.... The only reason it still exists, even after 12 straight quarters of straight decline and 50% of its "loyal" playerbase leaving is that it was so big to begin with. It was the right game at the right time. If WoW released even 1-2 years later than it did, you would call it a clone of "other mmo".

All mmos are clones of each other, wow is included. The entire genre is dying, and thinking wow is not part of the failures too is pure ignorance.

Not sure dying is the right word....we just have so many to pick from these days, players just float from one to another

[Hyve]

Games try to be the next World of Warcraft, and that's why they fail.

World of Warcraft blew up and changed the MMO(RPG) Genre forever. No game has come along and done it to that scale since, hence why World of Warcraft is still the dominant game.

If a game came along that made the same technological, graphical and game play changes (Relative to today) that WoW did back then, it'd be the best thing since sliced bread.

[Deleted]

; is not a comma. It doesn't have the same application as a comma. It is not a fancier version of a comma.

[Hyve]

; is not a comma. It doesn't have the same application as a comma. It is not a fancier version of a comma.

Great addition to the thread buddy ...

Shoo. Scram!

[Nirawen]

Great addition to the thread buddy ...

Shoo. Scram!

He's not wrong though .

[Deleted]

What really bothers me about all these kind of threads is the feeling I get of being utterly to focused on a very limited, player-side perspective. Now, I do get that this is a reasonable viewpoint in a forum for gamers. But I would argue that it just doesn't work very well for evaluating businesses and their financial decissions. I don't mean to dismiss what was said here out of hand, but really, what the OP and others is doing is taking their player-perception of games, how they see them and judge them, and apply that to economic analysis. Thats simply not very sound.

Here is why: Even if a game transitions to F2P and players are leaving it, this does not mean: a) that it's a bad game or b) that it was a financial disaster for the publishers. Neither of these things are necessarily connected in the way you might think they are. Yet, players oftentimes only see a very narrow slice of what is going on - they get bored with a game and leave, believing it to be bad. Then they hear its going F2P, and feel this confirms their position. They also assume that this means that the game is now dead and programmer children are going hungry because of it.

Now, all of this MIGHT be true. But it might also be very different in reality. You would need vastly better market-ressearch to pinpoint why specifically people are leaving any given game (including, for that matter, WoW). You would then need to find out why publishers are switching to F2P, and how much money they are still making from that game. Ultimately, you would need to bring some hard numbers on whether any given game, over its full lifespan, was a financial success or not. These are complicated questions, and I'm sure a lot of very smart teams in companies all around the world are trying to answer them every single day. Going from what we perceive of the MMO-market as players only might be a very skewed picture. I, for example, have almost no idea whats going on in gaming-markets in Asia, South America or Africa; I also have limited knowledge of the real cost of maintaining servers etc. - overall, I can only very narrowly speculate about what is happening in the MMO-market today.

Now, if I were to speculate - as this thread is already doing- I would very certainly stay away from blaming (perceived) failure of a lot of games simply on ignorance and incompetence. It helps to remember that dozens or hundreds of people working on any given game are most likely not all just simply stupid. Even if corporate management is pushing them on some creative decissions or deadlines, it would be naive to believe that this isn't also the case with Blizzard or other games, and it would be even more naive to believe that this means they are suddenly incapable of creating good games. Even more so since I have been hearing LOTS of good things about most of the big new MMOs to come out over the past few years (the Star Wars one, Wildstar etc.). They have very good features, and are often considered to be good games by a lot of people. So no - it's probably not incompetence that is causing them to fail.

I would rather assume that others factors are causing their decline. One is the increased competition within the MMO-market - if you do not deliver high-quality content and stable servers instantly, you are more likely to lose players accustomed to such services from other games (e.g. WoW). WoW had the benefit of having much smaller competition back in the day. But it took them a lot of time and ressources to bring the game up to the standard we are now expecting off everyone - not in terms of game-design, but in terms of infrastructure. It is almost impossible for any new game today to invest the same ressources from the get-go. This is why they might not be able to maintain the initial hype often surrounding their release. If they transition to a F2P-model and can keep that up sustainably though, I don't really see any issue with that.

But apart from this, the real problem for MMOs is, in my opinion, the gaming market in general. We might see gaming become more and more mainstream every day, but that is skewing our perception. MMO-gaming is a niche market. The reality is that console-gaming is now the de-facto standard, and casual gaming is pretty much all the dollars ever these days. Hardcore PC-gaming is just a part of a bigger industry. And yet, with rising costs to produce high-end games, it's just becoming harder and harder to create a game that can compete in this part of the market. I would attribute the "failure" (and no, they can't all be failures, otherwise they wouldn't be pumping out new MMOs every year) of these games not to incompetence, but to market trends.

[Super Kami Dende]

As someone that actively plays SWTOR I can very much say it has come nowhere close to the "failure" you talk about.

At peak times there are usually 3-4 full instances of Fleet on just one Faction which is 160 people per instance, with each Planet having around 100-150+ people at any one time.

My Guild which is one of the higher Populated ones on my server/faction also has a very large amount of players that are all Subbed (around 90% with a 120ish level 55 Roster).

The game also made $160mil on their in-game store alone last year, before Subs were counted.

People that talk about games as being failures without actually looking into the games and how profitable they are with a F2P AND Sub option are generally people that just create pointless threads that really bring out their ignorance, stupidity and incompetence.