Am I getting this right?

[Pool of the Dead]

As someone who has played since Vanilla, and raided pretty hardcore from Vanilla through to Cata. I killed I think 3? at most Normal mode Raid bosses in MoP.
Considering these stats are also only on accounts active in the past 30 days, where a lot of people are still away from MoP waiting for WoD to drop, 1M/7M is actually quite a large number.

It surprises me people are so surprised by this.

[Wildtree]

So I've looked at this a few times:

http://www.wowprogress.com/stats

and every time I just feel like it can't possibly be correct.

The thing is basically saying that only around 1 million unique players killed ANY boss T15 and T16 on normal or above.

Am I reading this wrong and missing something? Is the data wrong? It would be one thing if this said cleared the entire tier or something to that effect, but this is saying that only 1 million people even killed so much as 1 boss on normal which I can't possibly imagine to be true vs the 7-10 million subscribtions MoP has had.

Anyone have any idea?

You are reading this correct. That's the reality.
It's 1 mio for normal/heroic... The numbers will climb a lot higher if you'd include Flex and even higher when you include LFR.

Now, if you'd look back at the history of raid participation as a whole throughout the games' lifespan, you would see that LFR/Flex greatly improved the numbers for Normal/Heroic.
1. It works as intended... The lower difficulties feeding the higher ones..
2. It works as intended... The total amount of players participating in either of the difficulties justifies the investment costs for raid content. Something that has to be the case, else the shareholders would be very displeased.

[Deleted]

A new thing that blows my mind is people blurting out this sentence and variations of it in this thread like it makes any sense.

Because during vanilla-through-wotlk and even most of cata(?) these lower difficulty levels weren't a thing.

Dat dere LFR and flex sure did pay for my raids back in BC.

I don´t get it, what do you want to hear? They did a variety of things that are pretty obvious, leveling alts, doing quests, doing pvp, exploring the world, chatting with friends, running 5man dungeons, raising reputations, getting titles, farming mounts etc. How is it surprising that so many people did not raid? Hell i remember we used to have guild meetings in Ironforge back in BC when i still played alliance just to goof off and do some guild events like raiding Tarrens Mill or whatever.
1million is a huuuuge number considering there´s only a handfull of hundred/thousand people posting on here/the official forums. The majority of people ust aren´t as "hardcore" as those who visit the forums or raid

[Karon]

You are reading this correct. That's the reality.
It's 1 mio for normal/heroic... The numbers will climb a lot higher if you'd include Flex and even higher when you include LFR.

Now, if you'd look back at the history of raid participation as a whole throughout the games' lifespan, you would see that LFR/Flex greatly improved the numbers for Normal/Heroic.
1. It works as intended... The lower difficulties feeding the higher ones..
2. It works as intended... The total amount of players participating in either of the difficulties justifies the investment costs for raid content. Something that has to be the case, else the shareholders would be very displeased.

Could you please provide a link to an official source that confirms those numbers? because all I can find is an official statement that wow-p statistics are anything but correct.

[Deleted]

I haven't done a "normal" raid (neverthless an heroic) since Blackwing's Descent. I simply can't be arsed when all I want to see is lore. I completed all quests in the game instead on more than one character.

You must realize most players do not give a damn about BiS equipment and raiding in general, or have better things to do anyway.

[Deleted]

Would be interesting to see just how many people were active and cleared wings/raids on LFR throughout MoP as well as flex numbers for siege.

Obviously i know the number will be a lot higher but would be interesting to know.

[Deleted]

Most players just don't raid. They never have. Hardly something new. Also the exact reason I think Blizzard should stop putting their entire end-game focus on raids.

Garrisons should fill the role of non raiding endgame for WoD.

[Maudib]

LFR accomplished three things:

1) It provided the raid-like experience for everyone and made it easy to access

2) Reduced the desire to clear the content on a higher difficulty

3) Reduced the number of potential raiders in game for raiding guilds to remain healthy

The problem was that you could completely gear in LFR with exact models with maybe slight color changes. You rarely saw something someone else had and said "Ohhhh I want that. Hey you! Where did that come from?" Back at the beginning of BC, when I first started playing, I would see raiders in the main cities and I would oooh and aweeee about the gear... it was SOOOO much better than mine and LOOKED epic.

That part of the game is gone. However, with WoD there is 20 man Mythic... with UNIQUE models and stats you cannot achieve other than being in a raiding guild. I am hoping this change will build the desire to once again raid. To see other people again with loot I cannot easily mimic in LFR... to look at the server #1 progressed guild and think.. man I'd like to earn a place there.

On the other hand there are so many negative things that are happening with the expansion that it's likely to drop even more subscribers... and in turn more potential raiders. This game hasn't resembled the game I love since Wrath... I sure do miss it.

[Varabently]

I raided in Vanilla and BC, but quit during Wrath. I played during Cata, but didn't bother raiding up until MoP's release (I stopped again before the content patch that including Deathwing and LFR in Cata).

I did 5mans, soloed old raids, pursued achievements, played the Auction House, ground rep, collected pets and recipes I didn't have, and mostly just leveled alts.

Considering it took 2~3 weeks of /played time in Vanilla to get to level 60 (which is 336~504 hours) I can easily see the vast majority of the player base never setting foot into a raid back in Wrath (which is when subs peaked). I can't remember what the average leveling time was in Wrath, but using Vanilla's conservative 14 days it'd take someone well over a year to get to 60 on one character if they 'only' played 5 days a week.

Raiders were, still are, and always will be the minority.

I'd like to point out that yes you could spend 2-3 weeks levelling; in fact my first 60 took 18 days
but my second took 6 days. You could level up pretty quick if you just quested and powered through it. But you're right, I knew a few people irl who played but never hit 60 and they could have taken several months to do so. Leveling is so fast now that its seen as an obstacle to get to end game, not content itself.

that's a shame because blizz can never go back and slow down leveling and its expected that it gets faster so new players can get to max faster and old players can do alts faster. Some of the QoL improvements like this end up hurting the game later.

[Deleted]

You weren't around for vanilla - bc huh? There wasn't a whole hell of a lot to do besides raiding. It was the entire endgame, and all they had for the first 3 expansions which was also constant growth for the game.

They started losing subs in the same xpac as they started catering heavily to the non-raiders, which is very odd all things considered. But that's a super different conversation.

That's a false memory. In vanilla (and BC) just levelling up to 60 was a big fucking deal. It took months of full time play. People used to speak in awestruck tones about players who had dinged max. I doubt 10% of the population ever reached max level during vanilla. For most of vanilla, *azeroth* was the raid. Which is how it should always have been.

[wariofan1]

The general public will just do the LFR version of a raid and call it that. Otherwise there are of course PvPers and super altoholics. Doesn't surprise me one bit personally.

[Deleted]

Most players just don't raid. They never have. Hardly something new. Also the exact reason I think Blizzard should stop putting their entire end-game focus on raids.

Someone gets it.

[Adamas102]

@denkou: See, that whole typical "lfr" thing doesn't work for me... LFR has existed for a very small portion of the games life span.

The game has had upwards of 12 million players subscribed at a single time with LFR not existing. What are these players doing? I can fathom a significant portion of that being pvpers... but beyond that?

Flex / LFR just don't make sense when you think about it.

The hell do you mean "that whole lfr thing doesn't work for me"? If you're trying to make sense of current normal raiding numbers, then LFR is one of several reasons why only 1/7 (which I think is actually kinda high) do normals and above. Achievement and transmog farming (which you dismiss in later posts) are also reasons.

If you want to know what people USED to do instead of raiding, then it's everything from PVP, leveling, farming, rep grinding, dungeon runs, and simply using the game as a chat program. Perhaps to you these don't seem like legitimate reasons to pay a monthly fee, but so other people they were/are.

[Maudib]

Serious raiders don't usually just raid for gear so that people like you can look on in awe. They raid for the challenge and overcoming it with friends, to do their very best.

Raiding has always been a bit of a niche activity in the game. LFR has nothing to do with the apparently low number of participants.

This has always been the "hidden excuse" of raiding guilds. We do raid for loot... every time a new raid is announced every raider starts linking atlas loot.. and slavering over the gear, stats and set bonuses. They talk about how cool this weapon looks and haw awesome that set piece is.... They RARELY talk about the mechanics of the fight to come... like "OMG did you see the new X mechanic! That is gong to be SUCH a challenge! I can't WAIT!"

If it weren't about the loot, there would not be EPGP, SK, DKP, Loot Council, etc.

Perhaps it is the mentality that it's NOT about loot... that has permeated guilds and why there are so few raiding guilds left.

Yes it's rewarding and fun to kill these bosses with friends... laughing and joking... but if you remove the loot... raiding would stop. Remove the laughing and joking but keep the loot? We just described LFR... the most popular form of "raiding".

[Deleted]

This is what really blows my mind about this.

People will say its all subjective etc etc... but there are other games that are just plain better for everything wow does besides raiding.

and on top of that... why was the game so successful from vanilla - wotlk with so little to do besides raiding at endgame.

I don't think MMOs was a very known format of playing when WoW was released. It started to get more recognition with TBC and with WoTLK A LOT of people knew about it and wanted to try out fighting the Undead Lich King. When they noticed it wasnt much to do beside raiding and PvP, the numbers started dropping.

Maybe?

Can you see the amount of players seeing the PvE content during WoWs peak?

[Maudib]

I don't think MMOs was a very known format of playing when WoW was released. It started to get more recognition with TBC and with WoTLK A LOT of people knew about it and wanted to try out fighting the Undead Lich King. When they noticed it wasnt much to do beside raiding and PvP, the numbers started dropping.

Maybe?

Can you see the amount of players seeing the PvE content during WoWs peak?

I don't understand this way of thinking... and I hear it a lot... "Not much to do beside raiding and PvP"

This game had done nothing if not add MORE and MORE things to do outside of raiding and PvP... Beginning with WotLK.. .there have always been more dailies than your 25 limit could handle. There have been pets and mounts added to be farmed, pet battling, transmogging, archeology, new starting zones, new classes, new races, achievements.... the list goes on and on.....

The PROBLEM is.... this game IS a game about progression... you are a lowly "hero" that makes his way to the top to take on the largest threat ever known to Azeroth. Leveling, normal dungeons, heroic dungeons, raids.. this IS the game... always was anyway.. now it's got soo much to do that the people who play it forget what it was supposed to be in the first place.

[Deleted]

1/7th isnt that bad imo. It is a lot more than vanilla ofc but I think it might also be more than in BC(I dunno if this is right, just a guess) and in that optic the raiding scene is only on a 3rd place out of 5 expansions. Think about it. Approximately 1% of the vanilla player base even set foot into Naxx let alone kill a boss. And with T16 out it is not like many people go around making Normal ToT raids(if people do it it is mostly for achivment runs) and taking new players with LFR only experience.

[DeadmanWalking]

LFR accomplished three things:

1) It provided the raid-like experience for everyone and made it easy to access

2) Reduced the desire to clear the content on a higher difficulty

3) Reduced the number of potential raiders in game for raiding guilds to remain healthy

The problem was that you could completely gear in LFR with exact models with maybe slight color changes. You rarely saw something someone else had and said "Ohhhh I want that. Hey you! Where did that come from?" Back at the beginning of BC, when I first started playing, I would see raiders in the main cities and I would oooh and aweeee about the gear... it was SOOOO much better than mine and LOOKED epic.

That part of the game is gone. However, with WoD there is 20 man Mythic... with UNIQUE models and stats you cannot achieve other than being in a raiding guild. I am hoping this change will build the desire to once again raid. To see other people again with loot I cannot easily mimic in LFR... to look at the server #1 progressed guild and think.. man I'd like to earn a place there.

On the other hand there are so many negative things that are happening with the expansion that it's likely to drop even more subscribers... and in turn more potential raiders. This game hasn't resembled the game I love since Wrath... I sure do miss it.

LFR accomplished one thing, it allowed Blizzard to throw a carbon copy to the casuals to keep them consuming content while expending 100% of the resources on end game raiding. To say anything less is willful blindness. Before LFR you had firelands and Dragon soul with 8 bosses, all of Mop with LFR you have had 16+ bosses in every tier.
They don’t make 5 mans anymore as catchup to raiding, because now there is LFR and Flex to do that. Had they turned the 3 5 man dungeons into raids and carbon copied them into an LFR for casuals dragon soul would of had 17+ raid bosses and the raiding scene would of been far more healthier.


There is also a heavy tone of ‘everyman’ to this thread, being that raiders are surprised that they are not the average player even though day in and day out people say the average player doesn’t raid. Just because everyone in your guild raids does not mean they represent the playerbase. Of course they all raid, they joined that guild specifically to raid. RPers dont join raid guilds, people who just play to fish don’t join PVP guilds.

And yeah, you are going to have some people who choose not to raid because they can experience the content in LFR, but to those people I say good riddance because I want people who are going to stick around and help the guild farm for the next tier not people who show up long enough to see the end boss die and then disapear until the next expansion. The ‘shortest easiest route’ guys are a waste of a raid spot, they are always undergeared and you have to carry them across the finish line. I have no problem with them having an easier to reach finish line somewhere else away from my finish line.

I don’t care how anyone else experiences the game, I am here for an experience with my guild. I don’t care what gear people have, I dont care if everyone can get a legendary because I feel zero need to peacock on a mailbox. I don’t need to pretend people pay attention to me in a video game. I dont need to draw attention to myself, I just need to raid with my friends and no amount of other people having or experiencing the same stuff can change the fun I have with my friends in my raiding guild.

[Maudib]

I don’t care how anyone else experiences the game, I am here for an experience with my guild. I don’t care what gear people have, I don't care if everyone can get a legendary because I feel zero need to peacock on a mailbox. I don’t need to pretend people pay attention to me in a video game. I don't need to draw attention to myself, I just need to raid with my friends and no amount of other people having or experiencing the same stuff can change the fun I have with my friends in my raiding guild.

Then you have no issue whatsoever. Nothing Blizzard has done or could do affects your gaming goals... to raid with your guild. Well.. except that LFR takes away from potential guildmates to fill the spots of people who left your guild.. and game. Yeah.. that's right.. compare your roster from the last expansion... if even HALF of your roster is the same you are WAYYYY above average.

I know you think you have taken the moral high ground.. but if you take away gear.. LOL. Lets say you reach max level and are given a default raid set... EVERYONE gets the same set. It's the very best gear the game offers. And the way the difficulty would work is you have to clear normal, then you automatically are able to run it heroic... heroic is same mobs/bosses just more damage and more health... then when you clear heroic you can run it again in Mythic... same thing... just more health and damage.

The challenge increases, there is no gear drops... from what you describe your guild would be tickled pink with that system.

I have to disagree... the core of this game has always been about gearing to become more powerful. Gear is king.

[Xe4ro]

Then you have no issue whatsoever. Nothing Blizzard has done or could do affects your gaming goals... to raid with your guild. Well.. except that LFR takes away from potential guildmates to fill the spots of people who left your guild.. and game. Yeah.. that's right.. compare your roster from the last expansion... if even HALF of your roster is the same you are WAYYYY above average.

Almost 3/4 of the people i raided/played with in classic to tbc are gone. They were gone way before the implementation of LFR though.