[6.2.3] Discipline Priest Discussion

[Dracodraco]

I noticed that when my Solace crits, the heal is equal to a non-crit? Is this a bug or intended? It has been bothering for a week now, but I always forgot to ask about it. Specifically, a normal hit is ~7.5k and the heal is around there, the crit does ~15k, but the heal is shown to crit, but does ~7.5k again.

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Oh, also, about Halo. Is there a weak aura or something to track your range from someone? Your target for example.

Your heals crit will always be absorbs. A 7.5k normal hit = 7.5k heal on random target. A 15k crit = 7.5K crit + 7.5K absorb on a random target (modified by mastery, so usually a +10K absorb).

[Jimjam38]

It does. Our main AOE ability is Prayer of Healing. Holy nova is the cheap "can be spammed while actually regenerating mana"-AOE heal that we have, that is as you say, equal to effloresence (and healing rain, come to think of it). All three have in common that they are relatively small AOE-radius heals, all three cost a very neglible amount of mana, and all three doesn't heal for a lot - Effloresence heals less targets but lasts longer and is stationary, healing rain heals for about 75% of nova but is stationary and needs upkeep every 10 seconds, nova is mobile and heals for the most but requires a global each time you use it. I think the issue here is that you seem to think that Holy nova build be a "viable AOE" spell, when Holy nova is really only there to provide disc with a mana-positive button to click if nothing is going on. It isn't there to be a competitive AOE heal (or even do more throughput) than a spell like PW:S which costs mana, and has a 10 second debuff limiter (meaning you can't spam a target).

As for PW:S giving the target a debuff, you're never getting rid of that. Being able to stack multiple PW:S on top of each other is simply too powerfull. It already shields for 25% baseline (50% crit) of a persons healthpool - you'd stack as many discs as possible to deal with "target takes X damage" abilities, or just spikes in general, if they could stack (3x discs, 150% shield HP in one global. Yea, no). Being able to deliver an instant high powered, mobile snap heal is strong enough as-is; being able to deliver multiple on the same target is just insane. And remember, we're supposed to be seeing 4-5 healers this tier; 2x discs as the balance is atm probably won't be worth it for most encounters. Stackable PW:S would make them a borderline requirement (spirit shell v2).

What you say makes sense, but I'm curious as to how well they compare. The last holy nova nerf hasn't been updated on the databases - they still read 112.5% spell power per target up to 5 targets. In game, my tooltip reads 3288 per target, which is roughly what it is healing for on average; i have 4001 spell power, 17.18% mastery, and 3.52 % versatility. Factor in grace at 30% and you get:

3288 = (4001x)*1.0859*1.0352*1.3
3288 = (4001x)*1.46136
4001x = 3288 / 1.46136
4001x = 2249.96
x = 2249.96 / 4001
x = 0.5623

So lets just call that 56% spell power coefficient on 5 targets, but include grace since it's always active and doesn't vary, so 72.8%.

Healing rain, on the databases, reads 81.9% spell power over 10 sec to 6 targets as baseline. This isn't accounting for the restorative waves passive for resto, increasing all healing by 25%, totems by 50% and healing rain by 100%. Since I don't know a lot about shaman, i'm going to give it the benefit of the doubt here and assume it doesnt dip, and healing rain only benefits from the 100%. Even then, that's making it 163.8% spell power over 10 seconds.

So, HN, 5 targets, 72.8% spell power, and assume zero haste for both for simplicity, so a 1.5 second duration.
72.8*5 / 1.5 = 242.66 % spell power per second

Healing Rain: 6 targets, 163.8% spell pwer, 10 seconds duration
163.8*6 / 10 = 98.28 % spell power per second
(if it does double dip, and also recieves an extra 25% then its 122.85% sp per second)

However, the difference is that Resto sham can continue doing other things while healing rain is active, where as disc can only spam Holy Nova. Same goes for Efflorescence. So, is the difference enough to make up for the fact that disc can't do anything else while it's spaming Holy nova? idk, and I'm too hungry to work it out now

[Well]

Your heals crit will always be absorbs. A 7.5k normal hit = 7.5k heal on random target. A 15k crit = 7.5K crit + 7.5K absorb on a random target (modified by mastery, so usually a +10K absorb).

OMG.

I don't know why it didn't occur to me. DA... Hi. Oh My God.

/runs into the hole of shame

And I did UBRS CM yesterday too. My God. /shame.

[Floopa]

And I did UBRS CM yesterday too. My God. /shame.

the place is overexaggerated in terms of difficulty.

the only difficult thing was the 3rd boss which got nerfed hard

[Deleted]

the place is overexaggerated in terms of difficulty.

the only difficult thing was the 3rd boss which got nerfed hard

cm is thought very hard because most people pug. I found the main problem is most people not having the patience of an adult to stay for more than 2 wipes (they also blame the healer before stepping out of fire or using personal cds or doing it properly or giving the healer a chance).

it got nerfed? darn, I did it right before the nerf.

oh well, bragging rights.

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It does. Our main AOE ability is Prayer of Healing. Holy nova is the cheap "can be spammed while actually regenerating mana"-AOE heal that we have, that is as you say, equal to effloresence (and healing rain, come to think of it). All three have in common that they are relatively small AOE-radius heals, all three cost a very neglible amount of mana, and all three doesn't heal for a lot - Effloresence heals less targets but lasts longer and is stationary, healing rain heals for about 75% of nova but is stationary and needs upkeep every 10 seconds, nova is mobile and heals for the most but requires a global each time you use it. I think the issue here is that you seem to think that Holy nova build be a "viable AOE" spell, when Holy nova is really only there to provide disc with a mana-positive button to click if nothing is going on. It isn't there to be a competitive AOE heal (or even do more throughput) than a spell like PW:S which costs mana, and has a 10 second debuff limiter (meaning you can't spam a target).

As for PW:S giving the target a debuff, you're never getting rid of that. Being able to stack multiple PW:S on top of each other is simply too powerfull. It already shields for 25% baseline (50% crit) of a persons healthpool - you'd stack as many discs as possible to deal with "target takes X damage" abilities, or just spikes in general, if they could stack (3x discs, 150% shield HP in one global. Yea, no). Being able to deliver an instant high powered, mobile snap heal is strong enough as-is; being able to deliver multiple on the same target is just insane. And remember, we're supposed to be seeing 4-5 healers this tier; 2x discs as the balance is atm probably won't be worth it for most encounters. Stackable PW:S would make them a borderline requirement (spirit shell v2).

I don't know why Atonement wants to create a Movement here to revive holy nova into a powerful spell. There are other solutions. e.g. Giving us a more interesting spell, like a chain heal or reviving prayer of mending into something more interesting or raid-wide.

[Deleted]

the place is overexaggerated in terms of difficulty.

the only difficult thing was the 3rd boss which got nerfed hard

The third boss would be fine if CMs had remained purely about the cosmetic rewards for completion and competition for the fastest times. Teams would prepare and organize kite, stun and snare rotations for the adds. Since adding the chance of gear upgrades and encouraging pugs for such group, I think Blizzard felt as though they had to make changes to make this boss less of a wall.

Agreed that the 3rd boss is the most difficult, with Zaela close behind. Much of the difficulty with her comes from resisting the temptation to rage quit over her stupid annoying voice.

I don't know why Atonement wants to create a Movement here to revive holy nova into a powerful spell. There are other solutions. e.g. Giving us a more interesting spell, like a chain heal or reviving prayer of mending into something more interesting or raid-wide.

It doesn't need to be super powerful. It just needs to be worth casting at a time which isn't movement with Penance, Solace and PW:S exhausted. The only time I use Holy Nova is when I want to add damage! e.g. UBRS third boss trash.

[Noradin]

I really wish atonement dumbheals were at least confined to group members, soloing and healing random targets all around the world while oneself is dropping lower and lower really is stupid.

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I don't know why Atonement wants to create a Movement here to revive holy nova into a powerful spell. There are other solutions. e.g. Giving us a more interesting spell, like a chain heal or reviving prayer of mending into something more interesting or raid-wide.

Why is it peoply always need to twist what others said? Where did the "powerful" come from?

[Myuer]

the place is overexaggerated in terms of difficulty.

the only difficult thing was the 3rd boss which got nerfed hard

The third boss would be fine if CMs had remained purely about the cosmetic rewards for completion and competition for the fastest times. Teams would prepare and organize kite, stun and snare rotations for the adds. Since adding the chance of gear upgrades and encouraging pugs for such group, I think Blizzard felt as though they had to make changes to make this boss less of a wall.

Agreed that the 3rd boss is the most difficult, with Zaela close behind. Much of the difficulty with her comes from resisting the temptation to rage quit over her stupid annoying voice.

Why the third is hard? It's very easy, you can even CC the waves of the adds.

Tonight I've done another bronze on Shadowmoon Burial Grounds almost got Silver. The only thing hard was the trash.

And I still think that we need a lower CD on Penance or lower cast time on Prayer of Healing, because when the shit hits fan we have hard time on refulling people.

[Symmone]

I need to do some CMs. I havent been brave enough yet

[Floopa]

I need to do some CMs. I havent been brave enough yet

tell people to interrupt / cc and they're really easy.

[Deleted]

tell people to interrupt / cc and they're really easy.

That's what every dps or tank that first steps into cm says:P Then they fail. But it's true, it helps in trash, and in some bosses.

Most of the other stuff though is stepping out of fire, having good output AND interrupts etc.

[Spotnick]

I prefer disc for everything other than cms atm. Holy is just so easy in daily cms that I don;t want to put the extra effort in to them as disc.

What extra effort? You spam Clarity of Will/Penance on tank and PW:S everybody else.. not like it needs effort.

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I've done UBRS bronze today with my discipline priest. Very cool to heal, but I still think that discipline has problems on refull people when there is a lot of damage.

Not as much as you think, Prayer of Healing does a wonderful job for that with Power Infusion. But it's always been the problem with disc, throughput.

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the place is overexaggerated in terms of difficulty.

the only difficult thing was the 3rd boss which got nerfed hard

I didn't do it before they removed the adds at 10%, but the fact you can drink mana between adds of wave makes me thing it can't be that complicated. Annoying, yes, but hard? Must say, this is one of those fights where I hate Blizzard for removing Binding Heal from the disc toolkit though.

Now, if only people all noticed the new health pots are like 120k healing and on same cooldown as healthstones (who does 70k healing)... those are SO useful, and everybody can make them since it's First Aid.

[Dracodraco]

It doesn't need to be super powerful. It just needs to be worth casting at a time which isn't movement with Penance, Solace and PW:S exhausted. The only time I use Holy Nova is when I want to add damage! e.g. UBRS third boss trash.

Why does it need to be worth casting over other stuff during movement? It fills that niche - a very, very cheap AOE heal that adds minor absorb shields to the raid in aniticipation of damage. There's no other niches it possibly *CAN* fill. The alternative is to remove it, because having a spam-able AOE heal that actually packs a punch in the current healer game would be fucking retarded. AOE heals can either be cheap, very weak, and generally not used unless nothing is happening, or strong, effective, and costly. There's no middle ground, because that opens up to nothing BUT that spell, because it's something no other healer has. You can't make it stronger than a singletarget spell that creates a heavy absorb shield and actually costs mana, or a direct heal that's supposed to be our iconic, strongest heal possible. Then you'd just use holy nova in all scenarios, even if not moving, like we did in SoO. And Hnova does win over Solace in terms of healing throughput; You just want to hit solace for the mana regen.

Put it this way, you guys are asking for something that no other healer has gotten (a cheap and effective AOE heal). It's silly.



As for the healing rain vs nova comparison up there, 632 resto sham has 7x ticks of healing rain, for 1.7K per (3.4k) crits. No interactions with anything (unleash life doesn't work anymore etc). That's 12K per person, or 71K healing per healing rain if all 6 people stand in it (which they can't in 5 mans atm, so 60K).


Holy nova has some spread, 3.6k-4k. So let's say 3.8k average, on my 637 disc. And my absorb shields from crits are at about 5K. Add the 25% extra healing during archangel aswell, and you have it hitting for 4750 per person, or 20[no AA]-24K[AA] healing per nova.

Now, holy nova is a global used and mobile, healing rain is a cast which is... Sort of fast, so you can get 1.5x holy novas per HR. That's about 30K healing from nova, vs 60K from rain for the same effort spent.

Of course, there's crit interaction with aegis that buffs holy nova, and shamans have mastery interactions that gradually increases the power of healing rain as people are lower. Point is, Holy nova is about a third of a healing rain, is mobile, and is not wasted if people move out of it as you are the center.

[Evry]

That doesn't make Holy Nova worth casting, though.
It's the inherent problem of a spec with few mechanics where the cooldown abilities are weak. You rely on whatever is the best filler for the situation, and for nearly every situation it's going to be PW:S.

There is no in combat healing situation where you should use Holy Nova over Power Word: Shield. Blizzard decided that hey, this spell actually is dumb and removed it. That's all there is to it.

[Well]

To be honest, HN is a terrible design-wise spell, and needs to be taken out and completely removed. It will either be extremely strong or borderline useless. When there are no interactions between spells, you will simply use what is best and if HN is better than PW:S, we will spam that. If PW:S is better than HN, then we spam this. Devs need to rethink the spec a bit. This is silly.

[Dracodraco]

That doesn't make Holy Nova worth casting, though.
It's the inherent problem of a spec with few mechanics where the cooldown abilities are weak. You rely on whatever is the best filler for the situation, and for nearly every situation it's going to be PW:S.

There is no in combat healing situation where you should use Holy Nova over Power Word: Shield. Blizzard decided that hey, this spell actually is dumb and removed it. That's all there is to it.

Except that's not true. It's just very low on the priority list. You guys keep speaking as if we have enough mana to always cast PW:S - that's just not the case. We have two "filler" heals - smite and Holy nova. You cast smite to build your AA stacks. You cast holy nova if you dont want to build AA stacks, because it's three or four times as strong as a smite, and they both cost the same mana.


Let's assume we have no spirit, and thus get the base 4.8K mana /5 regen, along with Solace on CD for .5% mana /5 (or 800 mp5), giving us 5.6K mp5. We start with a pool of 160K mana, and PW:S costs 3.8k per cast. That's 42 shields to go OOM from the base pool. Now, assuming zero haste for simplicity, that's 63 seconds for all the globals, add another 6 for solace and that's 72 seconds. In 72 seconds we regen 80K mana, and this goes on till we're dry (basicly, half our current mana pool regenerates in the time it takes us to deplete it) - so next time it's 40K mana, then 20K, then 10K. That's 81 shields, 12 solaces, and 140 seconds spent spamming solace+PW:S to go OOM.

So when we add in excess haste that lowers the global cooldown (such as the raid buff), we're looking at about 2 minutes of PW:S spamming before running OOM.

In a 5 man dungeon, this will last long enough for any boss, but in a 5 man dungeon, you're capped at one shield per target every 10 seconds - meaning half your spells has to be non-shields anyway.

In a raid setting, you should never run out of targets, but then you'll go OOM before the encounter is halfway done. You'll have to resort to triage in encounter that'll last over five minutes.

This means that you *have* to resort to your low-cost heals - you have three to juggle:
Smite to build AA stacks and nothing else.
Heal to singletarget a tank if no one else is taking damage / one person is injured.
Nova when moving or the entire party has taken damage (two novas can be cast in the time it takes for one heal, and heal is about 10% stronger than a full-hit nova).


But i digress: You're playing with infinite mana pools right now, spamming PW:S is entirely viable. When you actually start to heal raids with zero mana income sources apart from passive regen and solace, you won't be able to use it in the same way. Making holy nova stronger would just tip the balance so hard that disc would go back to "Mandatory", because no other healers has a spam-able AOE spell, and "smart" healing is very valueable in the current healing game. You'd become a novabot. Right now it fills a perfectly fine niche, and you will get to use it in raids untill you overgear them if you want to play properly.

To be honest, HN is a terrible design-wise spell, and needs to be taken out and completely removed. It will either be extremely strong or borderline useless. When there are no interactions between spells, you will simply use what is best and if HN is better than PW:S, we will spam that. If PW:S is better than HN, then we spam this. Devs need to rethink the spec a bit. This is silly.

You posted while I was typing, but really. Mana. Hello. It's a thing now. Your spells don't have to interact with anything, when HN is far cheaper and thus becomes the "filler" spell to PW:S' throughput.

[Evry]

Except that's not true. It's just very low on the priority list. You guys keep speaking as if we have enough mana to always cast PW:S - that's just not the case.

You're right, we can't spam PW:S on gcd. That doesn't change the fact that it's more than double the HPS and still 70% more mana efficient than Holy Nova is. In a mana limited scenario it's still far better to cast a PW:S and sit on the next global than it is to cast 2 Holy Novas.

There's more factors to consider than just mana efficiency when dealing with mana as your main limiter, but Power Word: Shield is better than Holy Nova at all of those as well, being an instant absorb.

[Dracodraco]

You're right, we can't spam PW:S on gcd. That doesn't change the fact that it's more than double the HPS and still 70% more mana efficient than Holy Nova is. In a mana limited scenario it's still far better to cast a PW:S and sit on the next global than it is to cast 2 Holy Novas.

There's more factors to consider than just mana efficiency when dealing with mana as your main limiter, but Power Word: Shield is better than Holy Nova at all of those as well, being an instant absorb.

Except unless the target you shield actually takes damage, PW:S doesn't do anything - thus holy nova is great for topping people up efficiently if the entire raid is sitting at, say, 80% hp, and you can't deduct where damage will hit next. It's a *filler*.

But if you insist on not using it, be my guest - it's just silly to complain about it when no other healer has as many different choises for different scenarios as disc does. Really gives the whole "entitlement" thing a new meaning when you complain that one of three choises is "bad", when all other healers only get one choise in that specific situation (their basic heal-spell).

[Well]

I don't see any comment for the 1st part of my post though. Do you agree with that? How much?

[Dracodraco]

I don't see any comment for the 1st part of my post though. Do you agree with that? How much?

I did respond to that. The interaction is mana and useability of the spells. PW:S is more costly, and more clunky as you only heal one target at a time for a huge amount. Nova is very flexible, mobile and cheap, and thus it gives far less output. The interaction is mana - you don't need any other interaction.