Some clarification about how to really play fire mage

[Deleted]

right, first of me posting here, but here goes...

I've been seeing a lot of stuff about "fire is low", "use this talent coz the other is crap" etc, and if i am honest, i tend to disagree with most people. I've been playing fire since Mop pre patch hit, and i've consistently been in the top area of dps whilst doing bosses (mop HC and WoD mythic bosses).

Now, lets clear some things up about some talents, in which people seem to think "SIMS" are the answer on what to use and how to use them.

Lets look at the tier 5 talents;

Living bomb - unstable magic - blast wave.

Living bomb, to me, is the best choice here compared to the other 2, for both single target, and especially cleave fights. Why? Lets do some thinking...

People are crying saying blast wave is better, but hear me out. Blast wave is a 1 hit at a push of a button, it can crit, and it can multistrike. Neat right? Yet it cannot benefit from any haste gains. Now think about your chances at it doing either of those. Now lets compare this to living bomb. Each dot tick can crit AND multistrike, so can the explosion at the end. But what is also always forgotten about, is the fact that haste will also give you a dps increase on this ability, adding more ticks with higher haste. With this in mind, i see that BW drops off fast with more gear, and LB easily takes over, and should have as much uptime as you can muster, without interrupting your pyro proc catching with inferno blast. Not to mention, if you become a pro at clipping it, it is even more of a dps gain.

And last here, lets look at unstable magic. Seems like a nice passive for less buttons right? WRONG. this is easily the WORST passive you could ever pick. the point in a fire mage is to cast LESS fireballs, yet this ONLY procs off of fireball casts. this makes it utterly useless for the spec, and please, never pick it.

Now let's look at the tier 6 talents;

Mirror image - rune of power - Incanters Flow

For this, knowing how this spec works, i choose incanters flow, 100% of the time, no matter if i am standing still, or moving constantly. Why? Let me explain.

The way fire mage works, is you want to hit as many pyro's in a row as you can in a short time frame window. this, in turn, hits for a lot of damage itself, leaves a ticking dot based on the damage it did, and also increases our ignite value, which in turn affects our combustion value. that's a lot of things dependent on 1 spell. Because of all this, mirror image can never be a pick for fire, as it does not affect that ability. But... why IF over RoP?

Due to all this damage affected by 1 spell, you want it to his as hard as you can. IF allows you to do this extra damage over rune of power, in a 6 second window. (2 seconds at 4 stacks - 2 seconds at 5 stacks - then 2 seconds at 4 stacks again). now, with fire having this little neat thing called "Heating up" which you can also have with a pyro proc active, you can "BANK" procs as your stacks of IF are low or dropping down.

For example - I get a pyro proc at 3 stacks, going down towards 1, i "BANK" that proc and cast another fireball. fireball crits and gives me heating up proc, im at 1 stack, just starting to climb again. i cast fireball as it is climbing, with the cast going off at about 3 stacks, and i let loose all my pyro's as well, finishing at about 5 stacks even if i get 3 pyro' crits (sweet baby jesus). with this, my pyro dot is nice and big, and my ignite is nice and big, which means i can do a nice and decent combustion. It's not about the damage your filler spell does in the end, that is extra damage. It's all about getting them pyro's to hit harder and harder to make you competitive on the meters.

And finally, the last thing that has annoyed me that i have seen about fire mages, is the 4 set bonus. People are crying out saying "The sims say that mastery is better than crit!" "Mastery OP!". But i'm here to burst your bubble. Sure, with the 4 set proccing, crit means nothing at that moment and time TO YOUR PYRO BLAST CASTS ONLY IN A 4 SECOND WINDOW. This 4 set proc does no affect dots critting, it does not affect you at all in any other part of the fight when it is down. If people want to stack mastery and drop crit enchants and gems etc, they will be nothing but a nice opening burst, and bottom dps rest of the fight. You will have so little sustain that you will be crying for buffs, which imo, is not really needed. Also, looking at the 4 set myself, yes, mastery will be nicer, but never over crit. And what about multistrike? I would MUCH rather them pyro's having a good chance to MS, as that will also add to your pyro dot, and your ignite value. Not to mention affecting every other spell you cast in the duration of the fight. I'm not saying don't go for some mastery gear, all i'm saying is, don't drop your crit.

If you were to ask me what stat prio's on gear i will be going for with 4 set active? I will say crit > multi = mastery.

Well, that's my ranting over, and i hope i can shed some light on a spec that a lot of people are struggling to play with all these so called "guides" and "sims"

Ube out.

[Rickdiculous]

Thank god Ube is here to teach us how to play mage with backed up and proven evidence. Screw all the work that other people have put in with simulations and math, Ube's gut feeling is what really matters.

Thank you Ube. You are the mage I want to be.

[Tyze]

"Living bomb, to me, is the best choice here compared to the other 2, for both single target, and especially cleave fights. Why? Lets do some thinking..."

stopped reading there

[Slykz]

The difference between your statements and many others, is that people had sims to back it up.

You're simply using your own logic trying to explain why YOU think something is better, you have nothing to back this up with.

[Deleted]

The difference between your statements and many others, is that people had sims to back it up.

See, this is the issue i have always seen. I have seen people following guides, and following sims. In single target, i am keeping up everyone in my guild. That is demo locks, arcane mage, boomy etc which are sitting top on a lot of fights. I can provide logs no problem for warcraft logs, and world of logs.

[Deleted]

See, this is the issue i have always seen. I have seen people following guides, and following sims. In single target, i am keeping up everyone in my guild. That is demo locks, arcane mage, boomy etc which are sitting top on a lot of fights. I can provide logs no problem for warcraft logs, and world of logs.

Please provide logs then. If you're right, then everyone will happily adjust their playstyle. The reason simulations are used and everyone utilizes the knowledge from them is that they tend to have the best results in raid environments. Everyone wants to get the highest DPS possible, after all. It's not just blind faith.

[Deleted]

Here's last night's log for grull normal (doing normal with guild for tier and shizz and is probably the only real single target fight)

worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iq5ca39yf9r54t2s/sum/damageDone/?s=1576&e=1848

and butcher heroic as well - worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s1omm0uofblwdvpy/analyze/dd/source/?s=1273&e=1516

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

There is a difference between potential dps increase and actual dps increase.

All the talents are good, but have disadvantages depending on playstyle and the type of encounter. For example rune of power is great for fights were you stand still, unstable magic for fights with multiple bosses etc. This is smart design in so far as your choice and knowledge of the encounter determines how viable the talent is. Brilliant.

That being said, talents like Blast Wave are much better because they are instant, doing all it's damage up front. Think about it for a second. Right before a boss transitions to an Invulnerable stage you can squeeze in one last attack, or When you are moving and don't want to lose your stack of heating up with a lousy scorch Blast Wave gives you a CD of guilt free movement. This is what makes it reliable and you should use it until the encounter becomes second nature and you know how your teammates fight.

Personally I hold onto both uses of blast wave until I get a trinket proc or until I know I need to run. But most importantly if you have heating up and Inferno blast has <2 seconds left on recharge you can use blast wave to save the buff and not waste the future CD of your next inferno blast and it keeps you from casting yet another fireball. Part of a good rotation is not wasting Recharge time and Using GCDs when running.

LB is fantastic and one of the most Iconic fire spells, but it sucks when the last tick ends right as you started to cast a fireball or have !Pyroblast with <1 second left and have to choose between keeping LB up losing a free tick or losing out on a free Pyro, Blast Wave makes that an easy choice.

[Rickdiculous]

Here's last night's log for grull normal (doing normal with guild for tier and shizz and is probably the only real single target fight)

worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iq5ca39yf9r54t2s/sum/damageDone/?s=1576&e=1848

and butcher heroic as well - worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s1omm0uofblwdvpy/analyze/dd/source/?s=1273&e=1516

Here are the top fire mage parses on heroic Butcher: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...Mage&spec=Fire as you can see, your claims make no sense. You cannot compare yourself to other people in your raid, you need to compare yourself to other mages.

[Soulja35]

I'll have to look through these logs when I get home. Pretty interested in what I'll find.

[Deleted]

.wow-heroes.com/character/eu/Tarren%20Mill/ubegoonzoo/

If you look on this, you will see my previous logs and my rankings in each fight.

[Frost1129]

I'm supposed to be convinced by you ranking on the easy fights, one of which favors fire, on a logging platform most top guilds have migrated from? Or is it the normal mode parses that I'm supposed to be convinced by?

[Deleted]

warcraftlogs.com/guilds/usercalendar/86951 That better then? Please remember that i am competing against a few 100 other fire mages, no matter what the difficulty, or if the fight favors fire.

[Deleted]

Here's last night's log for grull normal (doing normal with guild for tier and shizz and is probably the only real single target fight)

worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iq5ca39yf9r54t2s/sum/damageDone/?s=1576&e=1848

and butcher heroic as well - worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s1omm0uofblwdvpy/analyze/dd/source/?s=1273&e=1516

I'm honestly rather surprised you think those numbers are an argument for your case. You do know those are pretty damn low numbers all around, right?

[kaelleria]

A few things -

• Even if your data was correct, your post is formatted like crap so it's very difficult to read.
• Linking normal mode fights where you can ignore things and have mechanics that completely favor fire and the LB talent set up doesn't really help your assertions or credibility.
• Frost and Arcane mages at your same ilvl are beating you easily on Gruul and Oregorger (single target fights)
• No one is debating that fire is good on cleave fights.
• I don't really know what your post offers that hasn't already been posted or isn't wrong.

Robomage is going to play better than you in all situations. Sims are to be taken with a grain of salt due to fight mechanics, but they definitely play a large role in determining the viability of certain set ups.

[JimmyMcNulty]

Regardless of the logs he's posting or sims for that matter, there is some truth behind what he's saying.
Keep in mind that you are not machines and you never execute a fight like its scripted in Simcraft, and for most of the unpredictable stuff that can happen during mythic encounters i also agree that LB and IF are the best overall talents to pick.
As for the stats, the farthest i'd go is Crit=Mastery>Multistrike

[kaelleria]

The only reason to play fire is on cleave fights... which naturally favor LB and mastery over crit, especially with the 4pc.

We have data via sims and real world statistics via WCL that fire doesn't perform as well as Arcane or Frost on ST fights to where the other setups for fire would even come into play.

[LocNess]

right, first of me posting here, but here goes...

I've been seeing a lot of stuff about "fire is low", "use this talent coz the other is crap" etc, and if i am honest, i tend to disagree with most people. I've been playing fire since Mop pre patch hit, and i've consistently been in the top area of dps whilst doing bosses (mop HC and WoD mythic bosses).

MoP doesn't matter at all. Fire was the top spec when 6.0 dropped. Some WoD bosses have Fire top if it is cleave.

Now, lets clear some things up about some talents, in which people seem to think "SIMS" are the answer on what to use and how to use them.

Lets look at the tier 5 talents;

Living bomb - unstable magic - blast wave.

Living bomb, to me, is the best choice here compared to the other 2, for both single target, and especially cleave fights. Why? Lets do some thinking...

People are crying saying blast wave is better, but hear me out. Blast wave is a 1 hit at a push of a button, it can crit, and it can multistrike. Neat right? Yet it cannot benefit from any haste gains. Now think about your chances at it doing either of those. Now lets compare this to living bomb. Each dot tick can crit AND multistrike, so can the explosion at the end. But what is also always forgotten about, is the fact that haste will also give you a dps increase on this ability, adding more ticks with higher haste. With this in mind, i see that BW drops off fast with more gear, and LB easily takes over, and should have as much uptime as you can muster, without interrupting your pyro proc catching with inferno blast. Not to mention, if you become a pro at clipping it, it is even more of a dps gain.

And last here, lets look at unstable magic. Seems like a nice passive for less buttons right? WRONG. this is easily the WORST passive you could ever pick. the point in a fire mage is to cast LESS fireballs, yet this ONLY procs off of fireball casts. this makes it utterly useless for the spec, and please, never pick it.

The DPET of Blastwave in Mythic BRF Gear on a Patchwerk fight is 42k. The DPET of Living Bomb for a Patchwerk fight is 14.5k. You can fit 2 LB's per one cast of Blastwave, so double 14.5k is 29k. That is still SIGNIFICANTLY lower than Blastwave, a spell that is not hard to maximize at all.

Now let's look at the tier 6 talents;

Mirror image - rune of power - Incanters Flow

For this, knowing how this spec works, i choose incanters flow, 100% of the time, no matter if i am standing still, or moving constantly. Why? Let me explain.

The way fire mage works, is you want to hit as many pyro's in a row as you can in a short time frame window. this, in turn, hits for a lot of damage itself, leaves a ticking dot based on the damage it did, and also increases our ignite value, which in turn affects our combustion value. that's a lot of things dependent on 1 spell. Because of all this, mirror image can never be a pick for fire, as it does not affect that ability. But... why IF over RoP?

Due to all this damage affected by 1 spell, you want it to his as hard as you can. IF allows you to do this extra damage over rune of power, in a 6 second window. (2 seconds at 4 stacks - 2 seconds at 5 stacks - then 2 seconds at 4 stacks again). now, with fire having this little neat thing called "Heating up" which you can also have with a pyro proc active, you can "BANK" procs as your stacks of IF are low or dropping down.

For example - I get a pyro proc at 3 stacks, going down towards 1, i "BANK" that proc and cast another fireball. fireball crits and gives me heating up proc, im at 1 stack, just starting to climb again. i cast fireball as it is climbing, with the cast going off at about 3 stacks, and i let loose all my pyro's as well, finishing at about 5 stacks even if i get 3 pyro' crits (sweet baby jesus). with this, my pyro dot is nice and big, and my ignite is nice and big, which means i can do a nice and decent combustion. It's not about the damage your filler spell does in the end, that is extra damage. It's all about getting them pyro's to hit harder and harder to make you competitive on the meters.

Your damage isn't entirely Pyroblast, and trying to "bank" a Pyroblast for 5 stacks every single time is flat out impossible. RoP is better standing because it gives a higher average % increase. If you are attempting to maximize IF stacks, then you are either having to stop casting (a HUGE nono for DPS), or have no Crit at all to worry about overwriting Pyroblasts (which you shouldn't be playing Fire at that point).

And finally, the last thing that has annoyed me that i have seen about fire mages, is the 4 set bonus. People are crying out saying "The sims say that mastery is better than crit!" "Mastery OP!". But i'm here to burst your bubble. Sure, with the 4 set proccing, crit means nothing at that moment and time TO YOUR PYRO BLAST CASTS ONLY IN A 4 SECOND WINDOW. This 4 set proc does no affect dots critting, it does not affect you at all in any other part of the fight when it is down. If people want to stack mastery and drop crit enchants and gems etc, they will be nothing but a nice opening burst, and bottom dps rest of the fight. You will have so little sustain that you will be crying for buffs, which imo, is not really needed. Also, looking at the 4 set myself, yes, mastery will be nicer, but never over crit. And what about multistrike? I would MUCH rather them pyro's having a good chance to MS, as that will also add to your pyro dot, and your ignite value. Not to mention affecting every other spell you cast in the duration of the fight. I'm not saying don't go for some mastery gear, all i'm saying is, don't drop your crit.

If you were to ask me what stat prio's on gear i will be going for with 4 set active? I will say crit > multi = mastery.

And this is where Komma gets mad at seeing "feelycraft". I just simmed a 15 minute fight (WAY overboard on the amount of sustain required with initial burst). And guess what? With 4P T17, they are equivalent. And that is going to the extremes. Every minute you drop to that huge total (how many fights are actually 15min long?), Mastery gets more and more important. At 10min, Mastery is already 4% ahead, and that is still a very long fight. So yeah, if your guilds damage is absolutely awful and you manage to live past every berserk, Crit and Mastery can be equal. In real life, Mastery is better than Crit once you get your set bonuses.

Well, that's my ranting over, and i hope i can shed some light on a spec that a lot of people are struggling to play with all these so called "guides" and "sims"

Ube out.

Your entire post is false, and your logs back up nothing to your data. Please don't mislead players.

[fearist]

you honestly suck and you dont know how to play fire. There are places where sim can't be taken 100% as fact, but Blast wave > Living bomb on single target, isn't debatable.

[deadman1]

Regardless of the logs he's posting or sims for that matter, there is some truth behind what he's saying.
Keep in mind that you are not machines and you never execute a fight like its scripted in Simcraft, and for most of the unpredictable stuff that can happen during mythic encounters i also agree that LB and IF are the best overall talents to pick.
As for the stats, the farthest i'd go is Crit=Mastery>Multistrike

What do you think is easier to execute in a fight while doing mechanics and others things, keeping a high LB uptime or pressing BW when its off CD.
BW is easier to upkeep anyways so even if they were identical in damage BW would still probably be better for most players.


I'm talking about single target.