You don't get it blizzard do you?

[VladimirM]

people whine.

people


Don't have anything else to say.

[Deleted]

People complained that in WoD there was nothing to do outside of 2 or 3 hours a week of raiding. AP is a system designed specifically to address that, now, in the absolutely classic mould of Wo w players they are whining and bitching about getting exactly the thing they were asking for.

I think that WQs and mythic+ and weekly quests should address the problem of "nothing to do". AP grind is a totally different thing. It's max level progress so people don't ever feel that they are "done" with their characters and keep playing. Just like the FUCKING random titanforge upgrades. It's nothing more than operant conditioning of people to play longer.

I know that I will put AP into my offspec weapons at the point when I reach the 1st level of concordance on my mainspec weapon. And I don't grind AP at all but just take the tokens which come naturally by doing things in the game that I find enjoyable. I am so DONE with their "incentives" to play. If I would ever get one of the people responsible for these decisions before me, I will hurt them badly. They have stopped to create a game for people to enjoy and instead force mechanisms onto us, which only promote addictive behaviour and burnout.

- - - Updated - - -

True, but the initial implementation with 54 traits used a linear scale for the last 20 traits, which offered decent rewards for time invested to these hardcore players.

Now they have moved to a completely exponential scale and NOW they agree that grinding concordance is pointless.

Then why did they put it into the game in the first place? Let us cap the weapon at concordance level 1 and update it if any higher raid tier content launches. This is not needed at all and only shows that they don't really think about players but only about shady retention tactics.

[kamuimac]

My only goal is to have 52 traits in Fury/Arms before ToS and I'm already at 52/48. Overall I think it's stupid that there's 50 points if it's basically unattainable unless you no life it for like the next year. I preferred what we had, 20 points with somewhat of a grind. IMO they are too worried about keeping players strengths closer together.

now tell us your /played time to reach this point and numer of mythic + you did to farm it up

we get it - yes there are some people who have time to put 200 hours and 300 dungeons into farming this trait but you shoudl relaise how tiny fraction of playerbase you lot are :/

- - - Updated - - -

Then why did they put it into the game in the first place? Let us cap the weapon at concordance level 1 and update it if any higher raid tier content launches. This is not needed at all and only shows that they don't really think about players but only about shady retention tactics.

this is very very true - also kinda premonition that 7.2.5 and 7.3 will be very lackluster content wise if only thing they have to offer is more AP grind.

enough grinding is enough.

[Cassidin]

In case you still don't realize what they have taken away:

AK40: 4000100% This is where we will farm for ages. Insufficient.
AK50: 55200100% This is where we COULD have farmed instead. But you are happy getting LESS for the same effort - right?

The difference is not trivial, is in fact huge.

Technically speaking you may well be correct (I can't be bothered to do the maths). However in reality it's still meaningless. Even with that massive increase to AK50 it would still take to beyond the end of the expansion to add another maybe 1k dps to you 1+m dps. I don't know many people that are going to want to farm for months for what equates to a 1% dps increase. Its about as meaningful as putting a 920ilvl item on nethershards vendor for 1m shards. Its there..... you.. must... grind... to... get... it....... Well, cost/benefit says its not worth it.

Having AK at 40 just makes the truth about the bottomless pit of maxing out your artifact more obvious thats all.

[Raelbo]

True, but the initial implementation with 54 traits used a linear scale for the last 20 traits

It wasn't actually linear, it was still exponential, just with a smaller exponent (5%) which made it look more linear.

which offered decent rewards for time invested to these hardcore players.

I would agree that the reward was tangible, but I would still argue that there were likely better ways for those players to invest their time than farming AP. I think a big part of the problem was people reacting according to how everyone else was doing it. If 1 person was a trait ahead of everyone else, everyone else felt like they needed to keep up, which created this massive arms race. It was more about making sure you kept ahead of your competitor than actually sitting down and analysing the question: "is this really worth it?"

Now they have moved to a completely exponential scale and NOW they agree that grinding concordance is pointless.

Well they have upped the exponent to 30%. This means that the amount you can get ahead by putting in more effort is significantly reduced. It's still not pointless, it's just more obvious that there are better ways to spend your time.

[Cassidin]

Asmongold said it well and it went something like this:

Maxing the weapon with either 40 or 50 its like trying to decide are you going to jump over the empire states building or the Eiffel tower. You won't be doing it with either so it doesn't fucking matter.

I like this analogy!

[Magnagarde]

Most players a) don't play much these days (Maybe 1-2 hours every day), b) Have alts, c) aren't confined to a spec.

I'll be satisfied (and "done") with AP the day I have 52 points on every single Weapon on every single one of my alts. I have one of every class. Many people are like me. Blizzard just essentially said "Fuck you" to me and players like me.

Well fair enough, but y'all aint getting the sub money no more.

"I wanted my artifact level to be 52 on every single one of my characters. It will take too long to make that happen because of these changes. I can't have my artifact levels this way and unless you give them to me, I'm unsubbing."

That is what your post literally says. No offense, really, but it is like a transcript from a minor's struggle to strike a bargain over chocolate with his parents.

[Raelbo]

I think that WQs and mythic+ and weekly quests should address the problem of "nothing to do". AP grind is a totally different thing. It's max level progress so people don't ever feel that they are "done" with their characters and keep playing. Just like the FUCKING random titanforge upgrades. It's nothing more than operant conditioning of people to play longer.

I disagree. The point of Titanforging and AP is to give people a reward for continuing doing stuff they like, NOT to force people to do stuff they aren't enjoying. Unfortunately, people being people, some will choose to force themselves to do shit they don't like to chase rewards that were never intended to be used that way...

And I don't grind AP at all but just take the tokens which come naturally by doing things in the game that I find enjoyable.

Which is exactly the way the system was supposed to work...

Then why did they put it into the game in the first place? Let us cap the weapon at concordance level 1 and update it if any higher raid tier content launches.

It's to provide continued reward for people who like spending more time and effort on the game. Like I said, the intent was never to force people who don't enjoy spending more time to spend more time. That is just people with poor self control making stupid decisions.

WoW doesn't benefit from having people spend ridiculously long hours playing the game. Their subscription revenue is independent of that, and is a function of how long they can keep players happy. Which is why they designed the AP and titanforged to be the way they are, so that players who want to spend longer playing keep getting rewarded.

Look I get what you are saying, that a real consequence of this is that some players get themselves into a horrible loop of sinking more and more time into the game to chase these endless rewards. But what I am saying is that it's by design. It is an unintended consequence that resulted from Blizzard not realising (as they probably should have) that some people are simply stupid that way.

[corebit]

"I wanted my artifact level to be 52 on every single one of my characters. It will take too long to make that happen because of these changes. I can't have my artifact levels this way and unless you give them to me, I'm unsubbing."

That is what your post literally says. No offense, really, but it is like a transcript from a minor's struggle to strike a bargain over chocolate with his parents.

The OP also contradicts himself, from his posts he says he doesn't have much time to play and yet he sets this super arbitrary goal of having 52 artifact level on every spec on every alt. Why? Unless he plays on a very competitive level (I'm talking top100 guilds with lots split raiding), there is no need to get Concordance on every alt.

I also have a hard time believing he plays all specs equally on content that require 52 points.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Way off on this one. Unfortunately evident with the take backsies comment. Just not relevant.

[ls-]

I'm guessing that few people will feel "obliged" to push past maybe Concordance rank 10. If that. Rank 10 to 11 is about 7 billion AP in order to increase the Concordance proc by 5%

There's people who wanted to try to cap concordance to prove that everyone's maths was wrong...

So, members of WoW community keep ruining the game. Countermeasures like Concordance are needed to protect people from themselves. People w/ no self-control are one of few reasons why we can't have nice things.

[Arainie]

The only thing I take with me from this thread is that you're (and tons more for that matter) acting like a kid who just got his candy taken away.

Most players a) don't play much these days (Maybe 1-2 hours every day), b) Have alts, c) aren't confined to a spec.

I'll be satisfied (and "done") with AP the day I have 52 points on every single Weapon on every single one of my alts. I have one of every class. Many people are like me. Blizzard just essentially said "Fuck you" to me and players like me.

Well fair enough, but y'all aint getting the sub money no more.

I play my alts tops 3-4 hours a week each (7 emissaries and a Mythic+ or two) and they're both at 51 traits with main at 52 and offspecs on 45~. If you choose to maintain 12 characters then you're basically resigning yourself to never being optimal on any of them. That's your choice and problem, I don't believe for one second you're meant to be able to manage that without playing excessively.

[shonist]

You say you nerfed AK down to 40 levels to lower the amount of time people feel like they are horribly inefficient. Nicely thought out, but completly ineffectual. It's much easier to never give a kid candy then to give candy to the kid, make it wait for 2 months to get said candy, and then call backsies after a month. Regardless of if the kid ever deserved candy, that kid is going to be angry with you.

That's what you have done. Instead of feeling like their AP farming again means something at 40, you've essentially ensured that players will now feel that their AP farming is useless for the entire rest of the patch cycle. Congrats, you extended the problem you sought to fix indefinitely.

the difference is that im not a kid and i dont give a utter fuck if they nerf it or not.

Thread is done.

[kennytheone]

The raid log expansion of WoD was horrendous... Having 0 methods of progressing your main outside raid time is awful. I work full time, so I miss out on tons of time to grind AP but I still LOVE the AP system. Being able to progress my character regardless of when I have time to play is amazing, some weeks I get very few hours outside raid time but still enjoy the shit out of getting to do content on my main. With the AK system weaved into the AP system, AP QUICKLY loses value until your next AK level resulting in time to play your alts at MINIMAL cost to your main. Please read my early post about my alts strength relative to my main without doing anywhere near the same amount of content.

My main is Bublbegumer - Mal'ganis (915 if I max its equipped Ilvl)
Priest alt - Boblebubble - Mal'ganis (908 Ilvl in bags few upgrades I haven't enchanted or gemmed yet, Should also be Artifact level 50 once I log in and get my M+ chest after work)

I have never had an alt so close to main with such minimal time investments... compare my M+ and raid encounters on these chars. Alts have it GREAT this expansion.... and to make it better 1 toon players can always gain power on their main if they want. It just gets DR'd.

Couldn't agree more, I have 8 chars one of them beeing my main but all of them are around 900 ilvl + or - 5 ilvl i can pug nh hc on any of them...i play maybe 2-4 hours a day after work and that is that...not a hardcore raider since i son't have time to but is very easy to keep alts to date...only annoying thing is suraman chain quest or any of the zones chain quests that i couldn't be botherred to do after doing them on 3 chars

[f3llyn]

A month ago: "OMG Blizzard do something, we're literally killing ourselves with this grinding we're forcing ourselves to do!!11"
---Blizzard fixes the problem
You: "OMG Blizzard I'm so angry at you for fixing the the problem of me killing myself with the grind I forced myself to do1222!!!!"


The cup is always empty, right?

The might have fixed the problem but in the same way that cutting your arm off at the shoulder is a fix for a paper cut on your finger.

It just doesn't make any sense.

What they should have done was reduce the cost of the trait and not made it such a stupid grind in the first place, which is what people were actually complaining about.

[Ozyorkbourne]

Which is exactly the attitude they probably should have taken from the start, instead of convincing themselves of the *need* to farm AP to death to reach the cap. The sad thing is that it took Blizzard having to go to these lengths to make these people see the light.

AP was never meant to be an objective in and of itself. It was always meant to be something that we collect passively by just playing the game and that ended up rewarding those who spent more time playing with a minor advantage. Instead people took it to extremes and decided to place a higher priority on the acquisition of AP than was really justified based on the return on (time) investment.

The only difference now is that by reducing that return on investment to even lower levels, it has finally become obvious to (almost) everyone out there that if you want to advance your character, there are muchbetter ways to spend your time than on simply farming AP.

Agree'd. It's entirely more logical to do some M+10's (15 after the patch) with the intention of getting gear. A notable item upgrade is currently worth considerably more than a single artifact level of concordance, especially since the proc is only 200str/int/agi per level on a 30% uptime buff.

[HeiAggra]

You dont need to MAX out the artifact! Got it?
I have dps one at 52 and tank one almost at 51 and i dont grind!
It's easy to lvl up with 40AK

[Jimson]

I see so many clueless people here it hurts.

If you think your proc of 2000 stat will be the same as mine with 5000-6000 stat (if not more), just because you stopped farming and I didn't, well, you're dearly mistaken. That's the difference between you having an LFR trinket from BRF and me having Soul Capacitor Mythic from HFC. Yes, yes, I'm sure 10 people will now come and tell me that +2K is all that matters it's all that you need.

WRONG.

On a full 20 man Mythic team, having all Concordance 10 (which we will have during early days of ToS 100%) versus having Concordance I is huge.

The farm is not over. Any Mythic player worth their salt will continue to farm just like before. The farm just got way worse, from being able to finish at 54, which was not easy, but also something that we actually manage to do early Nighthold, to INFINITY, which we will never finish, just farm forever, until whatever point the raiding community will feel like it's not worth it and it's better to put in offspecs.

Now, for offspecs. "Taking away 50 didn't affect you, since you didn't have it". What kind of next level ************** is this? Of course it will affect all of us. At 50 we would have leveled offspecs to higher levels of Concordance easier.

In case you still don't realize what they have taken away:

AK40: 4000100% This is where we will farm for ages. Insufficient.
AK50: 55200100% This is where we COULD have farmed instead. But you are happy getting LESS for the same effort - right?

The difference is not trivial, is in fact huge.

I beg you, please stop being so naive. Please have an inquisitive mind towards what Blizzard say and do, they don't have your best interests in mind, but theirs and their shareholders. Don't just swallow everything they say as truth and trumpet it as fact. Try to understand the motivations behind the actions and the PR speak.

One more edit: a "competitive edge" doesn't need to be large, it needs to be present. It is in our veins to try and rise above others in all kinds of aspects of life. Gaming is but one of them. If the edge, however small, is there, determined people WILL go for it.

Just make it simple. When ToS releases, come back and post an update with your logs and progress. Then we'll compare your logs to people with similar progress but undoubtedly lower Concordance points. It's a matter of comparison, no need to speculate wildly.

[Zamfix]

You say you nerfed AK down to 40 levels to lower the amount of time people feel like they are horribly inefficient. Nicely thought out, but completly ineffectual. It's much easier to never give a kid candy then to give candy to the kid, make it wait for 2 months to get said candy, and then call backsies after a month. Regardless of if the kid ever deserved candy, that kid is going to be angry with you.

That's what you have done. Instead of feeling like their AP farming again means something at 40, you've essentially ensured that players will now feel that their AP farming is useless for the entire rest of the patch cycle. Congrats, you extended the problem you sought to fix indefinitely.

You got one thing right: you're acting like a kid. Devs make change to video game, kids get upset. Story at 11.

[Swalload]

Why the fuck are people crying about not getting AK 50?

"Oh noes, it could have been 50 but it will not be, I am entitled to get something I never had in the first place!"

You know what else it could have been? AK 60, or even 70.

Would you like AK 70?, you can sit there and not play the game for the next 6 months to reach it and then get your lvl 35 artifact up to 100. After Argus.

Sounds great? Okay now cry about it, cuz it could have been AK 70, just like it could have been 50, or 40.

Cry about made up AK 70 now, there has been enough fucking pointless crying about made up AK 50, time to move on.