so hows frost now?

[Dranora]

Theres no Unholy nerf. Set bonuses are absolutely going to be tuned more before Antorus comes out.

Maybe you are right mate....but the DMG buff from t20 2p bonus is a reason that DA is such a freaking burst ability. The 4p from t20 support DA too if you line it up perfect. Wo
DA is strong without the 2p and 4p of t20 - but the t21 set doesn't sounds as great as the t20 set for me (like it is now). Maybe the 4p from t21 (20% chance that DC deals dmg again) will increase DA dmg IF the second dmg counts 4 DA...but tbh i don't know...and i dont't know if blizzard will overwork the set bonus again...

[Deleted]

Maybe you are right mate....but the DMG buff from t20 2p bonus is a reason that DA is such a freaking burst ability. The 4p from t20 support DA too if you line it up perfect. Wo
DA is strong without the 2p and 4p of t20 - but the t21 set doesn't sounds as great as the t20 set for me (like it is now). Maybe the 4p from t21 (20% chance that DC deals dmg again) will increase DA dmg IF the second dmg counts 4 DA...but tbh i don't know...and i dont't know if blizzard will overwork the set bonus again...

The UH 2p only buffs the DK damage not the pets damage. DAs burst is so insane because of the shoulders.

[Deleted]

It isn't a matter of whether or not you do well in your raid. That isn't the evidence we're looking at. Take a look at warcraftlogs' data. They have a LOT of data from a LOT of different raid groups. You can see how every spec compares to every other spec. You'll see that frost is very low comparatively, especially when compared with unholy.
Unholy is the best melee dps spec in the game right now, and the 4th best overall spec in the game. Frost is only better than a handful of melee dps specs and only better than BM hunter as a ranged spec. The problem is that Frost ends up being worse than every other class except for demon hunter and monk. It's better than Survival, assassination, and outlaw, but hunters are all MM which beats Frost and rogues have Sub which is extremely powerful due to their class being OP at soaking mechanics.

Unholy also generally has better defensive traits. Better AMS/IBF and a free 20% avoidance is very powerful. Frost has Mirror Ball which can be an advantage, but only really shines in Sister of the Moon. In every other fight, you can either preemptively use AMS to avoid debuffs, or play well. Sisters is the only fight that has a magic debuff that is randomly assigned and is a big pain in the ass for the entire raid if you clear it.

Thats not how warcraftlogs and log data work...

^^ Do not know how logs work, but will argue a point to the death. this forum summed up.

[hellhamster]

^^ Do not know how logs work, but will argue a point to the death. this forum summed up.

Hctaz is consistently one of the best frost parsers in the world, so I would venture a guess that he knows how logs work.

[Deleted]

Hctaz is consistently one of the best frost parsers in the world, so I would venture a guess that he knows how logs work.

Lets try to keep this conversation about frost and not individual posters though thanks.

[hellhamster]

Lets try to keep this conversation about frost and not individual posters though thanks.

It's you who are attacking him and this forum...

By all means though keep believing frost is fine based on personal anecdotes by comparing yourself to Johnny Eleferhero. However, don't start crying uncontrollably when the rest of us disregard your posts by giving you no replies and no attention you so desperately seek.

[Deleted]

^^ Do not know how logs work, but will argue a point to the death. this forum summed up.

It is too annoying to explain it over and over. Log data is an indicator, but it fails due to player perception. As long as pretty much all top players play unholy, frost will look weaker. It is the same we saw in NH (frost top, unholy bottom).

Just for example:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ries&boss=2032

Why should cold heart be 20% ahead of Prydaz unless data is screwed. Top frost DKs have Cold Heart, bottom tends to have less legendaries and maybe lacks cold heart. So cold heart looks better in logs, while in sims it is only few %s ahead...

[hellhamster]

It is too annoying to explain it over and over. Log data is an indicator, but it fails due to player perception. As long as pretty much all top players play unholy, frost will look weaker. It is the same we saw in NH (frost top, unholy bottom).

Just for example:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ries&boss=2032

Why should cold heart be 20% ahead of Prydaz unless data is screwed. Top frost DKs have Cold Heart, bottom tends to have less legendaries and maybe lacks cold heart. So cold heart looks better in logs, while in sims it is only few %s ahead...

That is true, one spec is not represented as well as another, resulting in skewed numbers and drawing wrong conclusions, however there is good representation by plenty of really good frost players at the top to compensate and compare findings.

[Deleted]

It's you who are attacking him and this forum...

By all means though keep believing frost is fine based on personal anecdotes by comparing yourself to Johnny Eleferhero. However, don't start crying uncontrollably when the rest of us disregard your posts by giving you no replies and no attention you so desperately seek.

you have replied to all of my posts so this idea of 'no replies' is pretty silly. Frost is pretty good though just done another raid and was top 4 on every fight

[Deleted]

Lets try to keep this conversation about frost and not individual posters though thanks.

Frost is pretty good though just done another raid and was top 4 on every fight

Pretty hilarious. Attacking ppl because you think they cannot read logs and telling frost is fine because you are hitting the meters in your raid.

If you have Players of the same skillevel / gear lvl etc. etc. frost wont be hitting the meters. There are a lot of specs - including unholy - which are just way better for the Bosses in Tomb right now than frost, this is the truth.

Yes unholy wont get a 4% buff with crucible. But unholy already got a pretty huge buff with the QoL Change to DAs behaviour / Timing.

[Deleted]

Pretty hilarious. Attacking ppl because you think they cannot read logs and telling frost is fine because you are hitting the meters in your raid.

If you have Players of the same skillevel / gear lvl etc. etc. frost wont be hitting the meters. There are a lot of specs - including unholy - which are just way better for the Bosses in Tomb right now than frost, this is the truth.

Yes unholy wont get a 4% buff with crucible. But unholy already got a pretty huge buff with the QoL Change to DAs behaviour / Timing.

i appreciate you saying that i am better than most people and that is why i perform so well. Maybe this is the case i am pretty good at Frost, but its fine.

[Flevor]

I don't get all this commotion tbh

I'm top dps in my guild both with unholy and frost

I only lead an HC guild but i don't give a shit most parses are about mythic stuff anyways if you don't do high end mythic raiding seriously stop breaking your head about details and stop giving a shit

Imo frost is just fine

/Endthread

[Deleted]

I get what you're saying but,

I think it's only fine, if you're not interested in competing with similarly performing people. Obviously it won't matter IF you're only comparing yourself and your performance to members of your guild/team/friends/whatever. In most guilds knowing your class and dedication is usually enough to top the meters. But if you're teamed up with a group of likeminded people who want to give their best performance, you really have to get the maximum out of your class to be able to compete.

So if you're OK with the fact, that your spec is mathematically (and you can't really argue with that) weaker than others, it's cool.

But it's only fine for you.
For others, not so much.

[hellhamster]

All of you saying frost is fine and doubting people such as Hctaz, I really doubt you can pull his 1.25m dps on goroth as frost, or the overall goroth #1, a rets/hunters 1.9m.

[Raiz]

you have replied to all of my posts so this idea of 'no replies' is pretty silly. Frost is pretty good though just done another raid and was top 4 on every fight

Why you guys are still arguing with him ? This quote alone is enough to understand why he's really clueless.

[RuneDK]

Why you guys are still arguing with him ? This quote alone is enough to understand why he's really clueless.

I said the same thing to myself and was about to reply but I was like nah I'll let him be clueless.

[Deleted]

That is true, one spec is not represented as well as another, resulting in skewed numbers and drawing wrong conclusions, however there is good representation by plenty of really good frost players at the top to compensate and compare findings.

No there isn't. Looking at logs we have 2 frost dks killing mythic avatar und 91 unholy. Fallen Avatar is 13k vs 5k. So highend players play unholy, while heroic ratio is more like 2:1.

There are other indivators. 35% of all frost dks wear cold heart on goroth hc, 51% of all unholy dks. Not using Cold Heart means you don't have that legendary. That's showing everywhere.

It's the same reason i expalined something in the enhance forum 3 months ago. We had a statistic showing Fury of Air being 10% behind on ST. Because sims showed it to be a dps loss. Then there was a simcraft bugfix which undervalued the talent. Suddenly that talent became much more popular and its value in logs increased to be the top talent. So informed players took that talent (the ones relying on guides stayed with the slightly weaker talent).

The end result was this:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ents&boss=2032

What i keep saying is: whatever simcraft says will win. If simcraft said: BOS is our best talent, then BOS would be the highest talent.

Or why is Obliteration now 20% ahead of BOS while in sims balance changed only 2-3%?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ents&boss=2032

- - - Updated - - -

All of you saying frost is fine and doubting people such as Hctaz, I really doubt you can pull his 1.25m dps on goroth as frost, or the overall goroth #1, a rets/hunters 1.9m.

The number1 ret on mythic Goroth has 1.56m - with 6 deaths buffing his damage. Now pick a ret pala in a raid where noone dies...

[hellhamster]

The number1 ret on mythic Goroth has 1.56m - with 6 deaths buffing his damage. Now pick a ret pala in a raid where noone dies...

It was 1 death. What about the hunter?

[Deleted]

It was 1 death. What about the hunter?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...=3&type=deaths

6 deaths.Also different spec have different kinds of RNG. Even trinket procs can screw tries or make them shine.

I had once a Star Augur mythic kill i was number 1 in my raid and was 30% ahead of 2nd place.

Why? I didnt know until i looked up logs and found out i had 5 ETW procs in the first 55 sec.

Individual logs mean nothing. Just look here:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ec=Enhancement

No. 1 is 10% ahead of no. 2. So what if that shaman died in that try? Suddenly the best shaman would be 6% behind the best ret instead of 5% ahead of the best ret pala.

Especially short fights can have crazy numbers. I pulled 1.5m dps on first week of sisters in TOS normal... i never repeated that value though my sims are now 15% higher... it was one crazy lucky try.

[hellhamster]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...=3&type=deaths

Why are you linking a different log?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...=1&type=deaths