Why is Thrall okay with slavery?

[The Madgod]

1. He freaking helped Broll and Varian escape but does nothing about Reghar for keeping them or the rest of the Crimson Ring.

And if this is true, this isn't as much a problem on Thrall as much as a poor representation of this syndicate within an encapsulated storyline.

2. No, I said it was bad for his nation to keep it. There's a difference that you're not getting here. I have not once advocated for all the orcs to think like him

Okay well then we can cross that one out and just go to extremely unrealistic expectations for Thrall and his ability to control a populace.

And also, it's not that you're saying you want that, it's simply that the thing you want would potentially require such for what you want to be explainable within the story, since the alternative is that it isn't explained at all which just makes the orcs shallow. It's the follow-through of what you are requesting; how it would actually work in the story. You can't just have the orcs not have slavery because Thrall said "no slavery" and have it be as deep as if Thrall doesn't like it but it still happens regardless. It destroys the conflict.

If the orcs want to keep slavery, and thrall doesn't then it should be shown ingame, there should be conflict, politics, discussion, intrigue. If Thrall's aware of the Crimson ring he should've talked about it with Reghar.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with how unrealistic that sort of thing is to ask for. Expand it to everything that is generally easily assumed because of characterization and you'd have a bunch of quests detailing what main characters like and dislike and why that just make them feel forced onto us. Developers and writers have a limited amount of "space" to work with with every expansion, every patch, every zone, every quest.

Instead the comic has Reghar 'retire' to being thrall's advisor which makes no fucking sense because how the hell do the two even know each other plus it's clear Thrall knows because Varian and Reghar interact at Theramoore and Varian for some bloody reason is totally fine with all this.

I honestly can't say until I actually see the bit in question, but considering the general vibe that the comics aren't exactly quality, I'm willing to say that this isn't really a good critique of Thrall or Varian as much as their handling within this medium.

And so we have this massive fucking disconnect where Thrall wants peace and doesn't like slavery yet his people attack ashenvale and he appoints a slave-owner as his advisor and never talks about either thing.

He talks about Ashenvale... That's just about the first half of the Shattering. Not the WSG stuff specifically but conflict in Ashenvale? Yes. Absolutely. The two situations are rather mirrorable.

Frankly, the disconnect is a good thing, for the most part. That Thrall's ideals are not in line with his subjects caused a good amount of conflict and tension for him.

He doesn't talk about how he'd like to get rid of slavery but can't for X reason or how he'd like peace but can't for Y reason or how he only care if orcs are enslaved because Z reasons.

It's just never talked about and this is lazy, sloppy writing.

It not being talked about isn't lazy, sloppy writing. It's concise writing, something that needs to be done when you're dealing with an MMO. What you're looking for is not going to be easily found in this medium. Or the RTS medium, even. The majority of lore from there is from the manual.

If you actually take the time to address EVERYTHING like this in an MMO, you would find more and more of the quests being focused on these main heroes and their more subtle dealings that don't have much to do with the overall plot. Which makes the world seem less big since it focuses in on singular characters rather than more general areas and armies and the like. Story in an MMO is a zero sum game. Focus too much on the little things - the garnish - and you have less room for the actual meat of the story.

Blizz makes all these damn plot hooks and if they're just going to drop them for years at a time or ignore them then they just shouldn't do them at all.

If they closed all of them or if there weren't any there would be almost zero room for RP and zero room for questioning those events. Unfinished stories aren't inherently bad, believe it or not. They cause discussion and speculation, that's not really a bad thing.

Finish Magatha's plot? Well, can't really do anything more with her in the future. Finish Fordragon's plot? Can't do anything with him in the future either. All you are doing by closing these plots is making creating new ones harder. By closing those doors, you are closing off possible plotlines and forcing yourself to create entirely new ones. That becomes extremely difficult to do over a long period of time and Blizzard seems to desire to have WoW for the long haul. That's not a healthy decision for your writing for an MMO, which has the principal goal of lastability. Sure, it's kinda lame, but it's honestly healthier for the longevity of Warcraft than knotting up all the loose ends.

I'd take a small number of well written and finished plots over dozens of nonsensical half-done plots that won't be revisited for years, if ever.

Then what you want is a standalone book where the lore is all encapsulated within a single volume. Not an MMO. The medium does not realistically allow for it.

[Skytotem]

And if this is true, this isn't as much a problem on Thrall as much as a poor representation of this syndicate within an encapsulated storyline.



Okay well then we can cross that one out and just go to extremely unrealistic expectations for Thrall and his ability to control a populace.

And also, it's not that you're saying you want that, it's simply that the thing you want would potentially require such for what you want to be explainable within the story, since the alternative is that it isn't explained at all which just makes the orcs shallow. It's the follow-through of what you are requesting; how it would actually work in the story. You can't just have the orcs not have slavery because Thrall said "no slavery" and have it be as deep as if Thrall doesn't like it but it still happens regardless. It destroys the conflict.



I'm not sure if you're familiar with how unrealistic that sort of thing is to ask for. Expand it to everything that is generally easily assumed because of characterization and you'd have a bunch of quests detailing what main characters like and dislike and why that just make them feel forced onto us. Developers and writers have a limited amount of "space" to work with with every expansion, every patch, every zone, every quest.



I honestly can't say until I actually see the bit in question, but considering the general vibe that the comics aren't exactly quality, I'm willing to say that this isn't really a good critique of Thrall or Varian as much as their handling within this medium.



He talks about Ashenvale... That's just about the first half of the Shattering. Not the WSG stuff specifically but conflict in Ashenvale? Yes. Absolutely. The two situations are rather mirrorable.

Frankly, the disconnect is a good thing, for the most part. That Thrall's ideals are not in line with his subjects caused a good amount of conflict and tension for him.



It not being talked about isn't lazy, sloppy writing. It's concise writing, something that needs to be done when you're dealing with an MMO. What you're looking for is not going to be easily found in this medium. Or the RTS medium, even. The majority of lore from there is from the manual.

If you actually take the time to address EVERYTHING like this in an MMO, you would find more and more of the quests being focused on these main heroes and their more subtle dealings that don't have much to do with the overall plot. Which makes the world seem less big since it focuses in on singular characters rather than more general areas and armies and the like. Story in an MMO is a zero sum game. Focus too much on the little things - the garnish - and you have less room for the actual meat of the story.



If they closed all of them or if there weren't any there would be almost zero room for RP and zero room for questioning those events. Holes in stories aren't inherently bad, believe it or not. They cause discussion and speculation, that's not really a bad thing.

Finish Magatha's plot? Well, can't really do anything more with her in the future. Finish Fordragon's plot? Can't do anything with him in the future either. All you are doing by closing these plots is making creating new ones harder. By closing those doors, you are closing off possible plotlines and forcing yourself to create entirely new ones. That becomes extremely difficult to do over a long period of time and Blizzard seems to desire to have WoW for the long haul. That's not a healthy decision for your writing for an MMO, which has the principal goal of lastability. Sure, it's kinda lame, but it's honestly healthier for the longevity of Warcraft than knotting up all the loose ends.



Then what you want is a standalone book where the lore is all encapsulated within a single volume. Not an MMO. The medium does not realistically allow for it.

1. It's a problem with Blizzard's writing and Horde characterization.


2. How the hell is it unrealistic for him to say "Hey Reghar we need to talk about your job before you worked for me" or "Well Gallywix I'd like to believe you but I don't and I don't like slave traders"

Also, is the bolded portion even english?

For fuck's sake all I'm asking for is an acknowledgement, I'm not saying the orcs shouldn't or can't have slavery.


3. How the hell is it just about Thrall and not about the orcs in general? This is a characterization issue.


4. Until Blizz makes the comic noncanon it's as fair game as anything else.


5. I'm not talking about the stuff in the shattering I'm talking about the stuff in Vanilla.


6. I don't think it'd be that hard to write a cohesive story if they put some damn attention to detail into things, and I don't think "Story is Hard!" is a justifiable defense against criticism, it's an explanation but this is a multi-million dollar franchise, we deserve more quality than this.


7. Shut up about magatha and fordragon you know damn well that's not the sort of thing I'm talking about. I'm talking about things like the Gem of the Khans and the Crown of Will and shit that Blizz drops and never returns to or outright retcons after it's forgotten about it. I'm talking about "Isn't Falstad Dead?" and Kael'thas's freaking video in TBC showing him at the Dark Portal instead of at a portal in Dalaran.

I'm talking about how Blizz gets away with lazy, sloppy writing because everyone just gives them the benefit of the doubt again, and again and again.




I don't see what the point of a lore forum is if we can't point out inconsistency and ask for things to get better.


A forum where we can only talk about what we -like- and praise the game is -stupid-.


If all criticism is answered with "Well MMO writing is HARD" then why are we even here? Why do they even bother with story if they're not going to try for quality?

- - - Updated - - -

Again: America. Lots of people among the leaders divided on that issue. Civil War as the result. Not saying everything is 100% applicable, but ..hey..look at the bias in everything political: Hate war, sell weapons to the third world. Hate poverty, still exploit 3rd wworld countries. Hate income inequity, still rake in much much more than your fellow man. Hate Fukushima, still build more power plants. etc.

Guess we humans are also written badly.

1. That's actually an argument in my favor, slavery was addressed. In this case though, Thrall just glosses over it.



2. Reality is unrealistic, it's not meant to be written like a videogame.

[Scummer]

I want to see if he has anything to say about the Gilnean slaves the Forsaken took.

[The Madgod]

1. It's a problem with Blizzard's writing and Horde characterization.

Mmmmno, more of this one singular organization's representation and reception.

2. How the hell is it unrealistic for him to say "Hey Reghar we need to talk about your job before you worked for me" or "Well Gallywix I'd like to believe you but I don't and I don't like slave traders"

Also, is the bolded portion even english?

For fuck's sake all I'm asking for is an acknowledgement, I'm not saying the orcs shouldn't or can't have slavery.

Yes skytotem, it's english. To simplify it for you since I can understand it's worded a bit wonkily, I'm basically saying that what you were asking for would have unintended, severely negative consequences for the characterization and depth of either Thrall or the orcs in general.

"But when one of that nations leaders is supposed to hate slavery it's bad writing for his nation to keep it."

3. How the hell is it just about Thrall and not about the orcs in general? This is a characterization issue.

It's more of a space issue than anything, to be honest. You're simply asking for something that is not realistic and would be detrimental to the forwarding of the plot (again, game development writing is a zero sum game. It's not like books.)

4. Until Blizz makes the comic noncanon it's as fair game as anything else.

Differing levels of quality make that statement more fluid.

6. I don't think it'd be that hard to write a cohesive story if they put some damn attention to detail into things, and I don't think "Story is Hard!" is a justifiable defense against criticism, it's an explanation but this is a multi-million dollar franchise, we deserve more quality than this.

It's not about it being a cohesive story as much as it not being as fleshed out as you want it to be within the game, something that isn't as much "writing is hard" as much as "we have limited space and we have to prioritize story" and you're simply on the wrong end of the stick for forwarding plot. Throwing money at something does NOT make it better. Having more money does NOT give you more space to write within. There is a point of critical mass. Every single argument of "BLIZZARD CAN DO MORE AND DO BETTER" always uses that fact that they have a bunch of money but it's entirely ignorant of the creative process and entirely ignorant of game development in general.

It's entirely asinine for either of us to assume when they have reached critical mass. They are not hiring more writers. It is arrogant of either of us to suggest that they need more. We are not Blizzard writers. We are not Blizzard employees. We have no ability to judge them when they believe that they have reached the point where adding on more writers is not a good idea.

7. Shut up about magatha and fordragon you know damn well that's not the sort of thing I'm talking about. I'm talking about things like the Gem of the Khans and the Crown of Will and shit that Blizz drops and never returns to or outright retcons after it's forgotten about it. I'm talking about "Isn't Falstad Dead?" and Kael'thas's freaking video in TBC showing him at the Dark Portal instead of at a portal in Dalaran.

I'm talking about how Blizz gets away with lazy, sloppy writing because everyone just gives them the benefit of the doubt again, and again and again.

You're awfully mad at a bunch of rather inconsequential stuff. And furthermore, even that just compliments my point even more. Capping those off too just gives Blizzard less to work with in the future.

I don't see what the point of a lore forum is if we can't point out inconsistency and ask for things to get better.

A forum where we can only talk about what we -like- and praise the game is -stupid-.

I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying.

Closing open plots reduces the degree you can discuss potential lore, irrelevant of criticism. It literally reduces the amount of stuff you can speculate on and discuss.

Not sure where you got your classic "thought police" stuff from that.

If all criticism is answered with "Well MMO writing is HARD" then why are we even here? Why do they even bother with story if they're not going to try for quality?

I don't think you really understand. It's not that MMO writing is hard (though frankly it IS hard, considering the sheer mass of it), it's that what you're asking for simply doesn't fit the format. It's counter-productive for the end goal.

2. Reality is unrealistic, it's not meant to be written like a videogame.

This just in. Reality isn't realistic. I sincerely hope that was sarcasm.

[FuxieDK]

Slavery is only considered wrong, by those who are at risk of being enslaved (or already are slaves)..

[Arlee]

Slavery is only considered wrong, by those who are at risk of being enslaved (or already are slaves)..

That's an extremely myopic view...

[FuxieDK]

That's an extremely myopic view...

Nah.. Just realistic..

[Florena]

Nah.. Just realistic..

I'm against slavery, in no danger of being enslaved and am not a slave. There goes your thesis.

[FuxieDK]

I'm against slavery, in no danger of being enslaved and am not a slave. There goes your thesis.

Unless you are at the VERY TOP of your society, you can NEVER claim to be 100% out of danger of slavery..

My statement is still completely valid..

[Florena]

Unless you are at the VERY TOP of your society, you can NEVER claim to be 100% out of danger of slavery..

My statement is still completely valid..

If you're going to go to extremes even the people at the top are not 100% safe from a social revolution and nobody is safe from it.

[FuxieDK]

If you're going to go to extremes even the people at the top are not 100% safe from a social revolution and nobody is safe from it.

Using that example, you are not enslaved during a revolution, but after it.

However, once e.g. a dictator (top of the society) falls victim to the revolutionary forces, he'll be dethroned and then he's no more at the top, and thus subject to risk of slavery..

Just because you were risk free yesterday, doesn't mean you are risk free today..

[Arlee]

If you're going to go to extremes even the people at the top are not 100% safe from a social revolution and nobody is safe from it.

^
There is potential for everyone in society to be enslaved. And yet there are some people who are very much for slavery of other people.

To bring it back to wow lore, even the orcs who believe humans deserve to be slaves don't believe Orcs should also be slaves. Same thing goes for every wow race. Even goblins. And then within those groups theer are individuals who would say no one should be enslaved. Simplistic statements aren't realism no matter how you dress it up.

- - - Updated - - -

Just because you were risk free yesterday, doesn't mean you are risk free today..

because there is such a thing as ever being risk free from anything ever

[Skytotem]

I just don't agree that it's unreasonable to expect that a character whose background was deeply affected by being a slave should have something to say about a former slaveowner becoming his advisor, or keeping a former slaveowner who was just trying to kill him in power over the goblins.

There should be some kind of consistency in how the Horde deals with slavery, it wouldn't take that much dialogue and while I don't think money can buy a good story, money can give you the means to tell a better story, you can hire more writers, organize them more efficiently, accommodate them and their needs better. Blizzard is a large enough company that a lot of the things it lets slide are pretty awful.

There's a slaveowner in durotar who has you fight his naga, worgen, and taunka slaves and he doesn't act like he's part of anything illegal at all. So now if slavery is illegal it's one of those crimes no one gives a dang about and breaks the law over anyway, if it's legal and garrosh changed it from Thrall's days then that's something that should've been brought up to juxtapose the two characters. Instead there's nothing though. No flow. No consistency.

It's ridiculous to brush off criticisms of the story that affect major characters, the characterization of entire races, and their social factors as unimportant. This speaks to what the orcs are like on average as a nation, it's hard to have a clear picture anymore because the lore and game tell us two very different stories and reconciling the two either makes thrall incompetent or apathetic.


Simply put people have stopped caring about having a consistent narrative from Blizzard because no one expects to get one and that's pretty dang sad.

[The Madgod]

There should be some kind of consistency in how the Horde deals with slavery, it wouldn't take that much dialogue and while I don't think money can buy a good story, money can give you the means to tell a better story, you can hire more writers, organize them more efficiently, accommodate them and their needs better. Blizzard is a large enough company that a lot of the things it lets slide are pretty awful.

Again, this is just arrogance. Neither of us are in the position to say whether or not Blizzard can do better or hire more workers. And really, hiring more workers IS just blatantly throwing money at the problem and saying "IT'LL FIX IT!"

It's ridiculous to brush off criticisms of the story that affect major characters, the characterization of entire races, and their social factors as unimportant. This speaks to what the orcs are like on average as a nation, it's hard to have a clear picture anymore because the lore and game tell us two very different stories and reconciling the two either makes thrall incompetent or apathetic.

They are important, the glorious difference is though that sometimes you can't realistically have it in a game. The subtler aspects of storytelling like touching upon the relationship of slavery within the Horde is something that just doesn't fit as well into the MMO format.

You're asking for WoW to not be an MMO. You're asking for it to be a book.

[Skytotem]

Again, this is just arrogance. Neither of us are in the position to say whether or not Blizzard can do better or hire more workers. And really, hiring more workers IS just blatantly throwing money at the problem and saying "IT'LL FIX IT!"



They are important, the glorious difference is though that sometimes you can't realistically have it in a game. The subtler aspects of storytelling like touching upon the relationship of slavery within the Horde is something that just doesn't fit as well into the MMO format.

You're asking for WoW to not be an MMO. You're asking for it to be a book.

I think that's nonsense, it would literally take less than a few paragraphs in a mix of quest dialogue. Or one NPC conversation happening in Orgrimmar. You overestimate the difficulty of these things.


I'm not asking for a book. I'm asking for a paragraph or two's worth of acknowledgement at most.

[The Madgod]

I think that's nonsense, it would literally take less than a few paragraphs in a mix of quest dialogue. Or one NPC conversation happening in Orgrimmar. You overestimate the difficulty of these things.


I'm not asking for a book. I'm asking for a paragraph or two's worth of acknowledgement at most.

Then it's not really prominent and wouldn't be deigned a powerful aspect of culture.

You're asking for a notable dichotomy to have a CAMEO. Just for the sake of SEEING it.

Either do it right, or don't do it at all.

[Skytotem]

Then it's not really prominent and wouldn't be deigned a powerful aspect of culture.

You're asking for a notable dichotomy to have a CAMEO. Just for the sake of SEEING it.

Either do it right, or don't do it at all.

First it's not important enough to see, now it's so important it needs a whole other book.

Why are you being contrarian?

I'd take bit of follow through to make what's ingame currently consistent over waiting years for a long overdue book any day.

[The Madgod]

First it's not important enough to see, now it's so important it needs a whole other book.

Why are you being contrarian?

I'd take bit of follow through to make what's ingame currently consistent over waiting years for a long overdue book any day.

I never said it's not important enough to see, Skytotem. Let's not strawman here. I said that changing the writing of WoW to be more introspective and focus more on single characters and things like these more subtle social things would take away from what makes WoW an MMO. It shrinks the world and takes away focus from the zone you are in or the story of the world we are experiencing in a patch or expansion. Game writing is a zero sum game. Putting more focus on one thing inevitably puts less focus on other stuff.

Also, way to exaggerate my point to both ends of the spectrum. It doesn't need another book for itself. However, a book would be able to touch upon it far better than in-game, where it could either take away from the story of the zone / patch / expansion in order to be done properly, or to be inserted in what basically amounts to a cameo and thus seems more insignificant and shallow than it should be.

[Skytotem]

I never said it's not important enough to see, Skytotem. Let's not strawman here. I said that changing the writing of WoW to be more introspective and focus more on single characters and things like these more subtle social things would take away from what makes WoW an MMO.

It shrinks the world and takes away focus from the zone you are in or the story of the world we are experiencing in a patch or expansion. Game writing is a zero sum game. Putting more focus on one thing inevitably puts less focus on other stuff.

Also, way to exaggerate my point to both ends of the spectrum. It doesn't need another book for itself. However, a book would be able to touch upon it far better than in-game, where it could either take away from the story of the zone / patch / expansion in order to be done properly, or to be inserted in what basically amounts to a cameo and thus seems more insignificant and shallow than it should be.

1. I'm not asking for it to focus on single characters (Which they already freaking did with Cata Thrall and pretty much everyone hated that overfocus)


2. Where Have I ever said I want more focus on single characters? All I'm asking is that when these characters do show up and speak and act they're bloody CONSISTENT. I want them to MAKE SENSE.


3. No, this is ridiculous, in your own words, if they're going to do it they might as well do it right, if they couldn't touch on the importance and implications of slavery in the orcs they shouldn't have ever brought it up.

[Arlee]

Idk... I think it could be interesting if they had at least addressed this at some point. Even if it was just a convo with Thrall where he expressed his uneasyness with the situation. Even if it was something as simple as "I wish slavery didn't exist and could be done away with completely, but I recognize if I went out and dismantled the ring I know of it would just force things further underground and would likely just be a worse situation. At least this way it's somewhat monitored." (obviously I am just imagining what his reasoning would be given we aren't told)

Something like that would be interesting. They have conveyed his uneasiness with other parts of the horde before in various ways. As it is we are just left to speculate, which I love lore speculations but this is the sort of thing which could easily be one of the defining characteristics of him. I don't think we should need to speculate on something like that.