GW2: S02E03 The Dragon's Reach - Part 1

[Rukh]

Why do you think they woke in the wrong order? Or that there is an order?

Sure its possible that the orbs lit in random meaningless order, but I doubt it. They don't however light in the order that the dragons awoke during this cycle.
During this cycle, the dragons awoke in this order:

Primordius ~1120AE
Jormag ~ 1165AE
Zhaitan ~ 1219AE
DSD ~ sometime after Zhaitan but before Kralkatorrik
Kralkatorrik ~ 1320 AE
Mordremoth ~ 1327 AE

Eternal Alchemy scene orb lighting order:
Orange/Red
Light blue
Pale White blue
Bright green
Purple
Yellowish green

Now, we can't be sure the orbs are dragons, or necessarily which dragon they mean, but we can surmise this:
Orange = Primoridus
Purple = Kralkatorrik
One blue is DSD and one is Jormag.
Green is mordremoth OR Zhaitan, and the yellowish is the other.

So the orb waking order goes
Primoridus
Jormag or DSD
Jormag or DSD
Mordremoth or Zhaitan
Kralkatorrik
Mordremoth or Zhaitan

As you can see, the order is wrong for the dragon waking order for THIS cycle, however there have been countless cycles.

On order for the order to work, the orb colors would have to be:
Orange = Primordius
Light blue = Jormag
Pale white = Zhaitan
Bright green = DSD
Purple = Kralkatorrik
Yellowish green = Mordremoth

I mean I guess it's possible that light green is the DSD, but then what would be the significance of the DSD slamming in to the center? Or the official wiki and every source ever could be wrong about the dragon waking order I guess.

I was working under the assumption that Mordremoth just made the seeds, but in either case previous trees could fit fine. There are dwarf-records, but they're all pricks that don't share, so we hate them.

Its possible he makes the trees, its possible one tree in the previous cycle was rogue and so the seeds of that tree were hidden away. I think if all the seeds came from Mordremoth though, nobody would bother putting them in a hidden location.

What isn't clear to me is:
1) How intelligent are the dragons? They're elemental forces that consume magic then hibernate. Assumedly, the magic is either generated elsewhere or they ooze it out while hibernating. The dragons seem intelligent enough, but they're also consumed with their magic eating and don't seem to care what else is happening.

It slowly seeps out of them as they sleep, back in to the environment. I think they're very smart in an animal like way. They're predators who are cunning, but not all that interested in philosophy or understanding the universe.

2) How aware are they during hibernation? Mordremoth manipulated Scarlet while she slept. Primordus woke up destroyers to presage his arrival I believe, and was Glint working for Kralkatorik before rebelling or was she just a left over remnant of the previous time and not something he woke up to prepare for breakfast?

I don't think Mordremoth had as much influence as people are assuming. I imagine they have some sort of influence, but not a conscious guidance, more of a corrupting influence. If there are previous pale trees, maybe the knowledge from the dream has been passed down through multiple cycles, though the pale tree seems to keep some of it locked away. Maybe Scarlet got access to the fate of a previous tree and this is what inspired her. I think its likely the nightmare is Mordremoth's domain and the dream is actually a cleansed part of the nightmare that the pale tree keeps partitioned off.

If we're to assume that the dragons are matched pairs, Primordus and Jormag makes sense (fire/ice), and Zhaitan (unlife) and Mordremoth (life) makes sense. But deep-sea-dragon and kralkatorik?

The eternal alchemy is divided along three polar axes:
Life and Death
Illusion and Reality
Creation and Destruction

Mordremoth <> Zhaitan
Kralkatorik <> DSD or Jormag
DSD or Jormag <> Primordius

This is also why it doesn't work well for Zhaitan to be the light blue orb instead of one of the green orbs.

While you alluded to Mass Effect's cycle, and cyclical nature isn't an uncommon Fantasy theme, I think of it like Shadowrun if you're familiar with the game. Magic rises and falls, so the dragons don't operate at full efficiency until the level of magic returns to a level that allows them to. In the meantime they send out minions to bring magic to them for consumption. The Pale Tree may be descended from previous trees, but couldn't grow and be active until the ambient magic grew enough to power her and allow Sylvari to be born.

I don't mean it as any sort of damning criticism, I just enjoy the parallel. I guess Scarlet would be Saren.

it does make me wonder why we haven't seen more mention of the Other Trees though, sort of irksome.

They're all deaaaaaad!

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One other thing: Malyck.

During the sylvari personal story, you meet this rather pale sylvari who has no recollection of the dream. It turns out its because he wasn't born from the pale tree.

A lot of people, including Malyck himself, have assumed this means he's from a different pale tree, but I wonder.

In one quest, you take him to a sylvari seer who is connected to the dream better than any other sylvari. This is what she says about him:

"A distant shore—and darkness. A root, a cave...you. You are the seed. What Ronan knew and never told still lingers in the Dream."

Now, TO ME, this sounds like he was actually one of the seeds in the cave. Maybe the seeds don't turn in to giant pale trees unless you plant them at the nexus of great leyline energy? However the other interesting thing is that even though he's not of the pale tree and not part of the dream, the dream does have knowledge of him. From a cave, with seeds. Doesn't that sound like something the pale tree might have seen before she was the pale tree?

[worprz]

Hmm, don't be so sure. Guild Wars' dragons are massive and Taimi did confirm that the vines were Mordremoth itself.


PC: The vines? So, you mean Mordremoth's corruption.
Taimi: Not exactly. It's my belief that these vines we're seeing are coming directly from the dragon, spreading underground across Tyria. It's not just corruption. It's him.

I love that picture, I really hope they make Kralkatorrik big enough that it does this picture justice. I also want to see the dragons cause more destruction. I think the biggest problem with the Zhaitan arc was that you didn't see Zhaitan cause any destruction personally, you just saw his undead minions. We are only seeing Mordremoths minions and his vines right now, I hope we will see the dragon rise up and destroy Divinities Reach or something lol.

I've been watching some woodenpotatoes and there has been a lot of comparisons between Sin from Final Fantasy X and the Elder Dragons. The biggest thing I noticed was how powerfull they made Sin look and how Zhaitan didn't feel really powerful (even though he was supposed to be). I just really hope we see more dragons destroying a lot of things, maybe in a cut scene, it doesn't have to be a fight.

[Svifnymr]

Sure its possible that the orbs lit in random meaningless order, but I doubt it. They don't however light in the order that the dragons awoke during this cycle.
As you can see, the order is wrong for the dragon waking order for THIS cycle, however there have been countless cycles.

I agree that the orbs represent the dragons and when they awoke, but "when they awoke" could mean different things. Really though, your order could be fixed simply by assuming the Deep Sea Dragon actually awoke before Zhaitan, since we "know" Zhaitan was fourth. Just because we didn't feel his effects doesn't mean he wasn't awake in the depths of the seas. Everything else falls into place fine if you assume DSD was third.

Its possible he makes the trees, its possible one tree in the previous cycle was rogue and so the seeds of that tree were hidden away. I think if all the seeds came from Mordremoth though, nobody would bother putting them in a hidden location.

We don't really know that someone hid them, certainly not that they intended someone aside from Mordremoth to find them. Just as Glint didn't follow Kralk anymore, the Pale Tree doesn't follow Modremoth, if you assume it's a minion.

I think its likely the nightmare is Mordremoth's domain and the dream is actually a cleansed part of the nightmare that the pale tree keeps partitioned off.

Worth noting that the Nightmare Court doesn't seem beholden to him either, just the Soundless.

I don't mean it as any sort of damning criticism, I just enjoy the parallel. I guess Scarlet would be Saren.

Sure, didn't mean it to sound harsh, as I said the "cyclical doom" stuff is pretty standard Fantasy.

One other thing: Malyck.
"A distant shore—and darkness. A root, a cave...you. You are the seed. What Ronan knew and never told still lingers in the Dream."

Possibly refering to the sylvari/ seed pods as seeds, rather than the Acorns Of The Cave. The "root" also ties into Mordremoth at the moment, but at release when this quest was done? Hard to judge foreshadowing or just forgetfulness on Anet's part. Either way, your story journal spells out he's from another tree, but as an in character representation it may not be binding.

Now, TO ME, this sounds like he was actually one of the seeds in the cave. Maybe the seeds don't turn in to giant pale trees unless you plant them at the nexus of great leyline energy? However the other interesting thing is that even though he's not of the pale tree and not part of the dream, the dream does have knowledge of him. From a cave, with seeds. Doesn't that sound like something the pale tree might have seen before she was the pale tree?

I think it was the seer seeing into his version of his Dream, which was "distant and lost" or whatnot.

[zito]

Worth noting that the Nightmare Court doesn't seem beholden to him either, just the Soundless.

Both the dream and the nightmare are still connected to the pale tree. Think of them as protection against outside sources. The soundless drop that protection so they are vulnerable to mordremoth.

[Svifnymr]

I love that picture, I really hope they make Kralkatorrik big enough that it does this picture justice. I also want to see the dragons cause more destruction. I think the biggest problem with the Zhaitan arc was that you didn't see Zhaitan cause any destruction personally, you just saw his undead minions. We are only seeing Mordremoths minions and his vines right now, I hope we will see the dragon rise up and destroy Divinities Reach or something lol.

The problem really is how do you make an encounter with a foe that size and have a way for the players to win? Zhaitan's battle was massive, but it lacked something of a sense of scale when you're just blasting him from the deck. If Kralkatorik is that size, he's his own zone. Do you have a giant zone battle?

[zito]

Zhaitan pre nerf fight was epic. I mean it was really good. I still remember it, god it was amazing. Mobs started spawning slowly and then they picked up and picked up entill the entire deck was over run by zhaitans minions, 3 eyes up, 2 mouths (they were elites too) and the rest of his gang and then the music would turn into the final battle music and the keep coming in waves like you were over whelmed, LIKE YOU WERE FIGHTING FOR YOUR LIFE no matter how many you killed more appeared and then you had to man the turrets and his tenticle heads would spawn on the ship with the minions.

God it was hard and it was FUCKING GLORIOUS.

nerfed version? Piece of shit

[Svifnymr]

"piece of shit" is a bit subjective. "Relaxing cutscene" can still convey the scope of the battle without being any actual challenge to you.

[zito]

Not when everything dies in one shot and the amount of mobs reduced by 3/4 and the tenticle heads were removed.

[Rukh]

I agree that the orbs represent the dragons and when they awoke, but "when they awoke" could mean different things. Really though, your order could be fixed simply by assuming the Deep Sea Dragon actually awoke before Zhaitan, since we "know" Zhaitan was fourth. Just because we didn't feel his effects doesn't mean he wasn't awake in the depths of the seas. Everything else falls into place fine if you assume DSD was third.

The problem is we have a really concrete timeline. There's around 50 years between the times the dragons spawn. We know pretty well when jormag awoke and when zhaitan awoke, and there's about 100 years inbetween, which is where the DSD falls, and it aligns well. Mordremoth is the only outlier because Scarlet purposely woke him up early, otherwise he wouldn't awake for another 45 years down the line, give or take 5 years. The DSD wakes up basically the only time it could possibly have woken up.

We don't really know that someone hid them, certainly not that they intended someone aside from Mordremoth to find them. Just as Glint didn't follow Kralk anymore, the Pale Tree doesn't follow Modremoth, if you assume it's a minion.

I have no idea if the trees are a servant of Mordremoth or not, but it isn't really relevant either way. I don't think we have enough info to make a conclusion on that. Either way though, the seeds were in a cave, we know that. Seeds don't grow in caves, so someone put them there. The reason for that is pure and utter speculation, but as I said, in my totally unofficial and speculative opinion, it could be to hide them from a previous cycle of destruction. : P We know that there were no pale trees nor sylvari 250 years ago during GW1, nor in the history that anybody of the time remembers, so it had to be at least around 1000 years since the previous trees existed, pushing them back towards an era of dragon destruction.

Worth noting that the Nightmare Court doesn't seem beholden to him either, just the Soundless.

I don't think we know that for sure yet, positive or negative. Again, my guess on the nightmare being the realm of Mordremoth is pure speculation and not really well supported.

[Svifnymr]

The problem is we have a really concrete timeline. There's around 50 years between the times the dragons spawn. We know pretty well when jormag awoke and when zhaitan awoke, and there's about 100 years inbetween, which is where the DSD falls, and it aligns well. Mordremoth is the only outlier because Scarlet purposely woke him up early, otherwise he wouldn't awake for another 45 years down the line, give or take 5 years. The DSD wakes up basically the only time it could possibly have woken up.

You're assuming the pattern when it may not BE one, that's the point. You must admit that putting the DSD as third makes everything else line up, and that we don't know exactly when it awoke. It's entirely possible that like Mordremoth, it may have been woken earlier, even if your timing theory is correct. Sickly green for Zhaitan and icey blue for the deep sea makes fine sense as well. Now granted, the years lining up would be fun, but Primordus would have woken earlier had the Great Destroyer not been destroyed. Zhaitan's premiere was raising Orr from the depths, but did he just wake up and hit the "up" button instead of the snooze alarm or might he have been awaken for a bit before revealing himself. Granted they seem to like big waking events, but it's possible DSD's presence wasn't felt until Orr suddenly changed the waters of the world and pissed him off.

I have no idea if the trees are a servant of Mordremoth or not, but it isn't really relevant either way. I don't think we have enough info to make a conclusion on that. Either way though, the seeds were in a cave, we know that. Seeds don't grow in caves, so someone put them there. The reason for that is pure and utter speculation, but as I said, in my totally unofficial and speculative opinion, it could be to hide them from a previous cycle of destruction. : P We know that there were no pale trees nor sylvari 250 years ago during GW1, nor in the history that anybody of the time remembers, so it had to be at least around 1000 years since the previous trees existed, pushing them back towards an era of dragon destruction.

For all we know, in two days we'll go talk to the Pale Tree and she'll be like "oh, hey, so the dragons woke up in X order, and I'm actually supposed to be a minion of Mordremoth but I got free will because centaurs carve stones, so if you see other Sylvari, kill those evil bitches!"

But probably not.

(Also, would have been nice if there was mention of Malyck in Dry Top since he was heading out that way when he left.)

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Not when everything dies in one shot and the amount of mobs reduced by 3/4 and the tenticle heads were removed.

I'll grant you tentacle heads, but do more/harder mobs really convey the actual battle of PC versus Zhaitan in any real scale?

[zito]

The difficulty and mass gave you that overwhelming it's helpless feeling. Now it's just kill a few adds and your done. I'm talking in the sense of the current mechanics. You don't need those to make a good fight but they were the mechanics and they nerfed it.

[Rukh]

You're assuming the pattern when it may not BE one, that's the point.

Sure it's possible that every single dragon except the deep sea dragon wake up in 50 year increments, just weird. Also the krait started being pushed out of their area around the time it was said to have awoken, which was around the stated time.

but Primordus would have woken earlier had the Great Destroyer not been destroyed.

That's true, but we have no idea what such a thing would have done. I don't know where off the top of my head, but its been said that Primorius was sort of the harbinger of the cycle starting. Its stated in the Movement of the World that it was after his rise the elder dragons started raising one by one, so somehow his awakening triggers the others. Perhaps its because they all sort of exist in balance, and him awaking throws off the balance.

Zhaitan's premiere was raising Orr from the depths, but did he just wake up and hit the "up" button instead of the snooze alarm or might he have been awaken for a bit before revealing himself. Granted they seem to like big waking events, but it's possible DSD's presence wasn't felt until Orr suddenly changed the waters of the world and pissed him off.

We don't know the exact time, but its around the time the Krait started being pushed out of their homeland.

For all we know, in two days we'll go talk to the Pale Tree and she'll be like "oh, hey, so the dragons woke up in X order, and I'm actually supposed to be a minion of Mordremoth but I got free will because centaurs carve stones, so if you see other Sylvari, kill those evil bitches!"

Who knows, I don't think anybody expected us to find Omadd's machine and get a view of the eternal alchemy first hand either. Anet likes throwing those curveballs in the story.

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The difficulty and mass gave you that overwhelming it's helpless feeling. Now it's just kill a few adds and your done. I'm talking in the sense of the current mechanics. You don't need those to make a good fight but they were the mechanics and they nerfed it.

I think it's not just that. I think it's that he was pretty absent up until that point too. He had minions and they'd say his name, but you never really saw him or got a sense of his direct presence. It might have been better for them to have revealed him over a bit longer time. Have the characters try to attack him first and get utterly stomped as a plot point, then regroup, figure out how to weaken him through a few more missions such as killing the mouth or disrupting the supply etc. Make Trahearn's cleansing the source of magic be important to weakinging Zhaitan to the point we have a chance, then go at him again perhaps. I think that would have been pretty satisfying.

[zito]

Because Zhaitans power is master over all death - there isn't anything else to it. That's why we see his minions more and why we have "zhaitans eyes" and "zhaitans mouth" to deal with because they are an extension of him. There is nothing he can do besides control the dead that's his power. He can crush a few things with his size and that is about it.

[Kalcheus]

Dumb question: where is Jormag right now? Just chilling?

[zito]

Dumb question: where is Jormag right now? Just chilling?

Far shiverpeaks, where the norn use to live.

[lawow74]

Far shiverpeaks, where the norn use to live.

Yep. Keep in mind, Yak's Bend is in the southeastern part of Frostgorge Sound, as far north in the Shiverpeaks region as we can currently go.

[Svifnymr]

I think it's not just that. I think it's that he was pretty absent up until that point too. He had minions and they'd say his name, but you never really saw him or got a sense of his direct presence. It might have been better for them to have revealed him over a bit longer time. Have the characters try to attack him first and get utterly stomped as a plot point, then regroup, figure out how to weaken him through a few more missions such as killing the mouth or disrupting the supply etc. Make Trahearn's cleansing the source of magic be important to weakinging Zhaitan to the point we have a chance, then go at him again perhaps. I think that would have been pretty satisfying.

It's sort of amusing, if Zhaitan was being introduced now, he'd have flown into Lions Arch raining risen down on the city and leaving it in ruins.

As it was, we started our adventuring careers with him as the primary villain. We don't see the rising of Orr, we don't see much direct stuff, just footnotes of how mean he is.

But either way, I was mostly speaking from a viewpoint of the actual battle with an Elder Dragon and how you portray it with a large enough scope while still having the players win. A large group of laser toting airships from all the nations was their answer. It's not the best from a "let's run a dungeon" standpoint, but not sure how else it would fit. I didn't care for Deathwings Back Scratchers either.

[Kalcheus]

Far shiverpeaks, where the norn use to live.

Is he a threat? Or just content to hang out until the Norn return? Or is he recovering from the great battle with the spirits that cost him his claw? Or do we just not know?

[zito]

Is he a threat? Or just content to hang out until the Norn return? Or is he recovering from the great battle with the spirits that cost him his claw? Or do we just not know?

Basically, he has just been slowly advancing his forces south while the fallen spirits of the wild hold him back.

[Dundebuns]

Are you sure Zhaitan is the power of death? Since he actually reanimates the dead, surely he gives them life?