WW Legion mobility greatly improved! [PVP talents]

[Deleted]

If they don't change beta talents/pvp talents significantly, in Legion you will be able to have (as WW only):

- 4 charges of Roll (2 baseline +1 from normal talent, +1 from pvp talent)
- 2 charges of Flying serpent (1 baseline +1 from PVP talent)
- Whirling kicks (PVP talent: Spinning crane kick increases movement speed by up to 100% for 5sec)
- Tiger palm = 10yard charge + 2 sec slow OR you can get spinning fire blossom back for roots!
- You still have teleport baseline
- Healing surge becomes "Effuse" - same but instant cast spell

If that doesn't fix mobility problems for somebody, I don't know what more to say.....

[Deleted]

where does it say that Effuse is instant? that would be too amazing to be true!

[Felpacino]

where does it say that Effuse is instant? that would be too amazing to be true!

http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/202251-effusion

[Therris]

This is going to be outstanding, holy fucking shit I'm excited.....This fixes are hit box problem man, OUR HIT BOX PROBLEM (I know some monks say "there is no hit box problem" but alot of us know its there and can feel it)

[Ryuushima]

effusion is a brewmaster pvp talent guys...let's not get too hyped too quickly :P
here

[angryd0rf]

If that doesn't fix mobility problems for somebody, I don't know what more to say.....

Except you'd have to pass on defence and cc in order to have that. Seriously, putting sfb and fof stun in one tier is just evil.

[Deleted]

Except you'd have to pass on defence and cc in order to have that. Seriously, putting sfb and fof stun in one tier is just evil.

Love the new system! you can have a mobility build, or a cc build or a defensive build, or single targer or aoe... etc

p.s. In the build i put you still have 5sec AOE stun and paralyse is always baseline

[Deleted]

If their damage stays around the same as it is atm with these changes, ww will be unbeatable

[Toppy]

If their damage stays around the same as it is atm with these changes, ww will be unbeatable

all classes are currently saying that when they look at their talents right now

[Divinism]

[PVP POV]

IMPROVEMENTS
-Chi Torpedo no longer deals damage and is now in the mobility talent tier. This removes the jump roll for burst playstyle that many monks hate.
-Chi Explosion removed, making WW gameplay fast paced again hopefully. The talent tier consist of interesting choices like Spinning Dragon Strike and Chi Orbit.
-Fortifying Brew cd reduced essentially by 50%, but Whirling Kicks looks stronger survivability wise, especially if you can consistently hit 2-3 targets with it. Jab -> SCK -> Jab -> SCK for disturbing amounts of healing. Potentially too strong.
-Fists of Fury now usable while moving, and with the talent, gets increased range and the stun! Could be potentially too strong.
-Freedom Roll glyph becoming a PvP talent, but competes with another interesting choice, double Flying Serpent Kick.
-Surging Mists redesigned into Effuse. Otherwise the same thing, but instant.

CONCERNS
-Nimble Brew removed.
-Karma still at 50%.
-Tigereye Brew redesigned to become a 1.5 minute cooldown rather than the current stacking mechanic. Also means the loss of on demand 20% damage reduction through current 4 pvp set.
-Major glyphs removed, therefore glyphs like Paralysis / Touch of Karma removed as well. The effects don't seem to be baked into their respective spells currently.


To me it looks like monks are going to become even more squishier and now have even greater emphasis on mobility in order to survive. With TEB being totally redesigned, I hope we are not completely useless without it, and are able to create pressure without relying on cooldowns.

[Deleted]

People need to stop being hyped (and utterly stupid) at the slightest change and stay level-headed like Divinsm above, otherwise the development team will never stop crapping on the monk class. As a matter of fact they fucking pruned a lot of abilities for all classes by turning them into different talents.

Several higher rated WW has emphasized over and over how our survivability is one of the core-issues in PvP and that is still not addressed in a positive gain, they managed to actually make it worse.

Current model for surviving:
Mobility and simultaneously healing using Healing Elixir (clever uses of brew), Expel Harm and Chi Torpedo (slightly) alongside Tigereye Brew is the main approach to surviving and damage. Especially how flexible Tigereye brew is or soon used to be. It is not easy to survive as a monk and I thought Blizzard suggested to make the class easier to approach.

Seemingly Beta model:
Instant healing gone: Chi Torpedo, Expel Harm and the ability to tie Healing Elixir to chi brew.
No pvp set: %50 karma - I expect, no I demand a 100% karma baked into the core pvp spec. 20% dmg reduction tied to our burst was stupid but a necessary integration for our defense though using chi explosion gave it a decent up-time.
Fortifying Brew/Zen Meditation gone: Yes GONE as in they decided we can't have both, though Zen Meditation works slightly different but extremely niche based as its still a channeled spell (4 secs only instead of 8). As a matter of fact, if you decide to pick up the new Whirling Kicks we have 0 abilities to reduce raw incoming damage and thus we only have 1 defensive (ToK) to absorb & dmg. Haven't heard any changes to Tok So I assume it can still be removed by iceblock and bubbles which gives us 0 defensive capabilities after that is gone.
Nimble Brew gone

Even the new interesting skills are half-baked due to its placement in the pvp talent tier and I'm talking about the FoF tier. Giving up the stun in a FoF allows you to be CC'ed and slowed even easier thus removing our 4-sec channeled burst ability (which is a shitty framework to begin with). This means we will rarely access the new tiger palm upgrade or the classic spinning fire blossom.

To sum up, the current changes lean towards WW being "glass cannons" and if you don't know how to run and hide after using ToK while spamming effuse you're dead.

- - - Updated - - -

Mobility was never the issue, surviving against burst and the clunkiness of chasing someone down is some of our major problems. OP talent suggestions also removes the choice of Tiger's Lust, our only raw dmg reduction (Fortifying Brew/Zen Mediation), Stun on FoF and removing snares using roll/FSK. As the others mentioned, instant effuse on a 6 sec CD is a BRM talent.

So yes, even greater mobility to escape using your set of talents but how do you OP plan on actually surviving a burst? You don't have expel harm or a preemptive healing elixir or even fortifying brew. 50% karma can only get you so far.

[Deleted]

Monks actually have pretty good survival currently if played well, which is why they are often used in "rot-comps". Their offensive power is just too unrealiable to be used in setup comps, so currently the choice is often Chi Explosion to have frequent availability on TEB and defense.

I think the focus will shift in Legion. The new "on-demand" TEB combined with the probably higher base damage on abilities will probably allow for really high controlled burst with RSK+FoF+Dragon Strike, unlike now where you need TEB charges (which takes some time without ChiEx) and no one near to soak up your Hurricane Strike damage.

So, yes, it seems that WW is going more into glass cannon playstyle direction where survival is mostly done through mobility and healing (Effuse will probably heal for more than Suring Mist now), also have that heal on Whirling Kicks, Healing Elixir is still there, we also get a HoT on TP, which might or might not be more useful than Chi Burst/Wave in a PvP situation, depending on how much it heals for and how the damage pattern in PvP looks like (bursty vs. sustained).

But if you look at the other DPS, most dps will not be as sturdy as they are now in WoD. DKs will lose Blood Presence and quite a bit of their healing (no Soul Siphon/Lichborne), Warlocks lose Soul Link. Warriors will still be able to take a beating in Defensive Stance, though. Rogues keep Feint talent but without the Glyph (+2s duration) and they lose BoS, which makes it a lot harder for them to just survive by mobility. Hunters have only 1 charge of Deterrence now, no freedom if MM, no traps if ranged spec. Ferals lost Rejuv, Yseras Gift and FB glyph, which means they can only heal after a finisher. Shamans lost Maelstrom Weapon (= no instant healing either), Paladins lose Selfless Healer (= no instant healing) and Divine Protection.

In-combat (instant) healing was reduced for all DPS basically. Some also lost defensive CDs. Casted healing is still their, but can often only be used with mobility, which Monks have.

It all depends on how damage turns out. They stated (like for every expansion) that PvP damage will be less bursty. So once you are at the point that you cannot be killed in a stun, mobility could be king among survival methods, when you can just port behind a pillar and heal yourself up after the stun wears off. One of the main survival problems with Monks currently is not having TEB up and being killed within a single stun.

There is also indication that they want to create a niché for tanks in PvP. So as a glass cannon type DPS you might group up with a tank that grants additional protection to you, like a Brewmaster with Guard or a Guardian Druid soaking up 25% of all damage around him.

So overall we don't know, good mobility is definitely a good thing. Other types of defense are really hard to judge, not knowing how the damage meta game will turn out.

[Deleted]

Nimble Brew removed.

This hurts for MW as well, but I am willing to take the hit if it means less CC breakers in the game.

A tone-down of CC and CC breakers is really good for the game.

[Deleted]

If they don't change beta talents/pvp talents significantly, in Legion you will be able to have (as WW only):

- 4 charges of Roll (2 baseline +1 from normal talent, +1 from pvp talent)
- 2 charges of Flying serpent (1 baseline +1 from PVP talent)
- Whirling kicks (PVP talent: Spinning crane kick increases movement speed by up to 100% for 5sec)
- Tiger palm = 10yard charge + 2 sec slow OR you can get spinning fire blossom back for roots!
- You still have teleport baseline
- Healing surge becomes "Effuse" - same but instant cast spell

If that doesn't fix mobility problems for somebody, I don't know what more to say.....

You are forgetting PvP is for PvP and PvE is for PvE. Atleast thats how I have understood them with how they have been speaking about PvP in Legion.

[FayrenPickpocket]

You are forgetting PvP is for PvP and PvE is for PvE. Atleast thats how I have understood them with how they have been speaking about PvP in Legion.

What's your point? Mobility in PvE is just fine. We're just getting a lot of mobility for PvP.

[Foncy]

What's your point? Mobility in PvE is just fine. We're just getting a lot of mobility for PvP.

I think the point he's trying to get across is "PvE" talents won't take effect in PvP.
While I don't necessarily think that's correct; Blizzard's never clarified this gray area from what I've seen.

[FayrenPickpocket]

I think the point he's trying to get across is "PvE" talents won't take effect in PvP.
While I don't necessarily think that's correct; Blizzard's never clarified this gray area from what I've seen.

From what I understood is you get the basic talent trees for leveling. The PvP talent tree is just an additional set for your PvP progression. When most classes rely on their PvE talents for their rotation, it wouldn't make sense that they remove them for PvP.

[quthar]

I think the point he's trying to get across is "PvE" talents won't take effect in PvP.
While I don't necessarily think that's correct; Blizzard's never clarified this gray area from what I've seen.

They did clarify this.

Racials, Talents, Artifact Traits, and of course PvP talents will all be active in both unrated and rated PvP.

[Ryuushima]

[PVP POV]

IMPROVEMENTS
-Chi Torpedo no longer deals damage and is now in the mobility talent tier. This removes the jump roll for burst playstyle that many monks hate.
-Chi Explosion removed, making WW gameplay fast paced again hopefully. The talent tier consist of interesting choices like Spinning Dragon Strike and Chi Orbit.
-Fortifying Brew cd reduced essentially by 50%, but Whirling Kicks looks stronger survivability wise, especially if you can consistently hit 2-3 targets with it. Jab -> SCK -> Jab -> SCK for disturbing amounts of healing. Potentially too strong.
-Fists of Fury now usable while moving, and with the talent, gets increased range and the stun! Could be potentially too strong.
-Freedom Roll glyph becoming a PvP talent, but competes with another interesting choice, double Flying Serpent Kick.
-Surging Mists redesigned into Effuse. Otherwise the same thing, but instant.

CONCERNS
-Nimble Brew removed.
-Karma still at 50%.
-Tigereye Brew redesigned to become a 1.5 minute cooldown rather than the current stacking mechanic. Also means the loss of on demand 20% damage reduction through current 4 pvp set.
-Major glyphs removed, therefore glyphs like Paralysis / Touch of Karma removed as well. The effects don't seem to be baked into their respective spells currently.


To me it looks like monks are going to become even more squishier and now have even greater emphasis on mobility in order to survive. With TEB being totally redesigned, I hope we are not completely useless without it, and are able to create pressure without relying on cooldowns.

As I already said before you wrote your post :

effusion is a brewmaster pvp talent guys...let's not get too hyped too quickly :P

So no, we won't have instant heals. We do however get healed from the damage absorbed by karma thanks to our artifact weapon.

[Deleted]

As I already said before you wrote your post :

We do however get healed from the damage absorbed by karma thanks to our artifact weapon.

Great for adding a little bit more survival but they are adding too much reliance on one ability for our overall survival kit that is.