Changes & Experiments to Raid Rewards in Dragonflight Season 1
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Hey everyone! We wanted to get out a sort of primer ahead of the Raid Testing tomorrow to provide context for the sorts of changes you will (and won’t) see as you step into Dragonflight’s first raid, Vault of the Incarnates.

Before diving into what’s different - this post is going to be entirely about the Raid. We’ll have other information before long available on what’s going on with other endgame activities (like Mythic+) at a later date, so we won’t be making any mention of them here just to stay focused on the topic at hand.
Without further ado, here’s what’s in for tomorrow:

Group Loot:
  • While inside Vault of the Incarnates, Group Loot will be the only method of loot distribution. There is no option to select for yourself or your group to return to Personal Loot.
  • Some items, like professions reagents may still use Personal Loot where appropriate.
  • Need & Greed UI will return, and we’ll be monitoring feedback to make the rules around when and how players can roll on items be as intuitive as possible.

Loot Trading
  • While inside a raid, all item level restrictions placed on trading between members of that group are removed entirely. This means that even small item level increases that aren’t upgrades (as is often the case with rings and necklaces, which are budgeted high in secondary stats) won’t be locked to a player even in the case that they roll and win that item.

Item Level Tiering
  • There now exists a 3rd item level tier at which items may drop, up from 2.
  • 389 is the base item level for Normal difficulty and will drop from Eranog, Primal Council, Sennarth, and Terros.
  • 395 is a new intermediate tier (was previously final bosses) that exists now for Wing Bosses - Dathea, Ascended and Kurog Grimtotem.
  • 398 is reserved for Final Bosses - Broodkeeper Diurna and Raszageth, the Storm-Eater
  • These item level increases still stay within the +13 band for each ‘tier’ of difficulty - meaning that Heroic Base would start at item level 402, just +4 after them.

For a long while we’ve observed that while players love the challenge of powerful wing bosses and ‘mid-tier walls’ like Halondrus, Sludgefist, and Painsmith Raznal - it didn’t make much sense when overcoming those involved challenges rewarded you with the same gear as you got from defeating a Shriekwing, or similar first boss. Our hope is that by introducing new tiers of raid rewards, progressing through Vault of the Incarnates (and future raids) will feel more meaningful as you master the difficult encounters within.

Unique Drops
Additionally, we’re experimenting a number of bosses that possess one item that intentionally drops at a higher item level - usually +6 or +7 from that boss’s normal table.

To be clear: this isn’t titanforging. It will be the same item every time, and will be very slightly rarer to compensate (and pending some new tech, we’ll have the ability to note this in the dungeon journal itself). These can be unique appearances, items with special bonus effects, or a powerful trinket that many people may seek after.

We have a few things we’re hoping to accomplish with this:

  • Retain some excitement from early bosses that groups typically master very quickly and no longer become challenging by spicing up their loot tables
  • Give more long-term goals for difficult encounters
  • Make a larger push towards having Item Level accurately reflect the power of a particular item.

While we added many strong effects to weapons in Shadowlands, it wasn’t easily communicated how good an effect actually was - for instance Edge of Night (the sylvanas daggers) were clearly much stronger than their item level indicated, but they still appeared the same as the rest of her loot table. Our hope is that by being a bit more flexible with item level, we can give ourselves better tools for tuning these effects appropriately and in a way that makes sense to all players intuitively.
For the moment it’s intended that not all 8 bosses posses one, but that’s something that could change in the future. Current examples of unique drops are:

  • A pair of special rings from Eranog and Diurna
  • An ‘Omni Trinket’ (Str/Agi/Int) from the Primal Council that gets stronger with more copies
  • A special bow from the Storm Incarnate herself, Raszageth

That ends the list of things that are exist and are implemented (though tuning for trinkets and special effects are still very work-in-progress). That said, we’d also like to share some plans that aren’t implemented. We’re interested in trying this out for a future beta build and getting your feedback on how it feels.

Bind-on-Equip items:
  • Regular non-boss enemies within raids will no longer have a chance to drop Bind on Equip Epic items. Instead, ‘Lieutenant’ enemies - named mini-bosses throughout the raid - will have chances to drop them instead. These would work like LT’s do in current WoW, where you’re only eligible to receive loot from them once per week, per difficulty.
  • BoEs would become scaled with group size like regular bosses do. This would guarantee a set number of BoEs each raid per group, assuming a full clear of the instance.
  • Lastly, we’d be placing more important items into the BoE pool. This could be anything from weapons to higher item-level pieces to make them more worthwhile to raiders.

The goal of these changes are to reimagining BoEs by making the raid environment itself a sort of ‘9th boss’, with a guaranteed amount of extra loot to reward progressing deeper into the raid or efficient full clears without the need to kill every single bat or Mawsworn off in a corner of the battlefield to get your value. Additionally, this as an opportunity to create clear and understandable rules about how BoEs work, and support them as a reliable source of gear players want, rather than feel like an afterthought.

That’s all for now - please feel free to ask questions and provide feedback both on this post, and as some of you dive into Raid Testing over the next week or so and we’ll respond and clarify as much as we can. Thanks for reading, and enjoy the raid!
This article was originally published in forum thread: Changes & Experiments to Raid Rewards in Dragonflight Season 1 started by Stoy View original post
Comments 108 Comments
  1. SinR's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Flame6 View Post
    Not a fan. Plate boots will drop, 10 people will roll need, but only 2 of them actually need it. The rest are just guildmates who are going to trade the item to their friend. So it's a 1 in 9 chance instead of a 50/50
    If thats the kind of guild you're in then I'd suggest you find a new home.
  1. Tyrathius's Avatar
    What a massive step backwards. GG everyone who complained about personal loot.
  1. salate's Avatar
    For a solo pug player this is kinda depressing stuff to hear.
    Let's see if personal loot haters will be happy. If they are happy about this change I'll be happier atleast for them.
  1. Nymrohd's Avatar
    I like the BoE change, the ilvl changes are not bad. But Group Loot only is going to be a huge issue for PuGs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    If thats the kind of guild you're in then I'd suggest you find a new home.
    I think they are describing a case where a guild is PuGing extras.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sensei View Post
    ‪Yeah, no. Don’t need this shit. Just make personal loot have no trade restrictions and we’re good. The only reason personal loot is annoying at times is the random Soulbound gear you can’t trade away. If that awful trinket with a higher ilvl than your current trinkets drops it should be your call to give it away if you don't plan to use it. ‬
    Pretty much, it is the same end result for guilds without the inevitable drama for PuGs.
  1. Hyrja's Avatar
    So we can end up getting 0 items because of bad luck?
    Yea, good idea Blizz
  1. Celement's Avatar
    Gonna depend on how much loot drops to be honest. The loot drop rate nerfs in shadowlands was felt for a long time. If they go back to only three pieces of loot per boss for example it's going to suck.
  1. ArenaDk's Avatar
    If all the people now wanting personal loot to stay been active on the forums where people complained for 10 years about it, blizzard May had seen more sides of things.

    But only getting active after things changed ? Well your own fault
  1. Stickiler's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    It's a trade-off. PL also had fail cases where people got an item they didn't want and couldn't trade it, or where there's tons of geared people from particular loot tables but very few undergeared people from others, who then had a much harder time gearing up because loot was skewed towards people who didn't need it.

    It's not a straight better vs. worse, but assuming averagely composed groups and average player behavior, there'll be very little effective difference. They just have different extremes.
    One difference, which I think is important, is that with a PL fail case, where a piece drops and can't be traded, everyone is mad at the system for stopping gear from being traded. With a GL fail case, where someone rolls on your gear when they don't need it, you're not mad at the system, you're mad at the other person for rolling Need on a piece you wanted.

    It's a minor difference, but I think it's a better situation to have the raid team angry at the game/loot system, rather than at each other, over gear.
  1. Forum Man's Avatar
    i am happy about the removal of the ilvl restriction it was dumb and the reasoning framed it like players were babies that hadnt learned how to say no

    the group loot only...personally i love it because i play in a guild but i see how people might be upset in pugs however the idea they will take gear they wont use on purpose on a regular basis is as asinine as the "players will swap covenants per boss" argument for covenant locks
  1. Gasparde's Avatar
    I really just don't understand.

    We had PL, GL and ML in the past, for everyone to choose. For some reason we then forced PL onto everyone, no questions asked. And after being told long enough, by enough people, that this sucked... they've now decided to force GL onto everyone.

    For fucks sake, why is it so hard to give PL to PuGs and GL / ML to majority guild groups? Why the fuck are they so hellbent on protection the poor innocent community from the ominous evil treacherous vile, toxic and allegedly massive ninjalooting community. Just fucking use the system you figured out works like 15 years ago.
  1. owbu's Avatar
    The fact that they didnt really comment on the most important change in this post makes me think that they either:

    - accidently fucked up the messaging and now it's not clear that this is just for testing the new group loot tomorrow and other forms will be back later

    - they are playing 3d chess to test the waters. "Boy, raiders have been whining a lot lately. Let's make an incredibly unclear post about how we will remove personal loot and see if it creates a shitstorm. Then we can roll in and heroicly declare that that will just apply to tomorrows testing and that we of course will have personal loot available for everyone and still enforce it for random groups like lfr."
  1. Advo's Avatar
    I like the removal of loot trading restrictions while in a group.

    Not so much a fan of the 'enhanced' special drops, especially all-class items like rings and trinkets. Its going to create a situation where 85% of the raid wants one, and you see one every four weeks.
  1. Argorwal's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Advo View Post
    I like the removal of loot trading restrictions while in a group.

    Not so much a fan of the 'enhanced' special drops, especially all-class items like rings and trinkets. Its going to create a situation where 85% of the raid wants one, and you see one every four weeks.
    It sounds like are only just giving a name to things that already exist.

    Edge of Night, OWS, Gavel, Veinripper, etc. are the existing “enhanced” loot just with an item level label that doesn’t make sense because they are way stronger than their item level says they are.
  1. Biomega's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    I really just don't understand.

    We had PL, GL and ML in the past, for everyone to choose. For some reason we then forced PL onto everyone, no questions asked. And after being told long enough, by enough people, that this sucked... they've now decided to force GL onto everyone.

    For fucks sake, why is it so hard to give PL to PuGs and GL / ML to majority guild groups? Why the fuck are they so hellbent on protection the poor innocent community from the ominous evil treacherous vile, toxic and allegedly massive ninjalooting community. Just fucking use the system you figured out works like 15 years ago.
    It's likely more complicated than that.

    What they want to avoid is a situation where PL + trading can be abused to instantly catapult select characters to insane gear levels. Imagine a coordinated group with armor stacking, where PL would guarantee loot drops for that armor class which could then be traded to a single person. Want BiS gear in two runs? This is how you get BiS gear in two runs.

    It runs counter to their objective of controlling loot acquisition raids in order to facilitate content longevity. At the same time, they have to balance system complexity around the lowest common denominator - that's why e.g. making it so that when PL is selected you can't trade freely but with GL you can is not an option, as it confuses the hell out of the Johnny Randoms who would never be quite sure when they can and can't trade something. And PL + free trade is the nightmare scenario that guilds would abuse the hell out of (see above). GL + free trade seems like the least worst of the possible combinations.

    Options are a good thing in principle, but remember: WoW is made for the masses. It needs to work easily and intuitively for people who have trouble operating a washing machine. They're fine limiting the options of a few people who are mad that they aren't getting a system they wouldn't have a problem working with, if it means getting a million of the other kind of people who go "group personal WHAT now gief purple plz k thx".
  1. Unholyvamp's Avatar
    Holy crap, what a massive step backwards.
  1. Gasparde's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    It's likely more complicated than that.

    What they want to avoid is a situation where PL + trading can be abused to instantly catapult select characters to insane gear levels. Imagine a coordinated group with armor stacking, where PL would guarantee loot drops for that armor class which could then be traded to a single person. Want BiS gear in two runs? This is how you get BiS gear in two runs.

    It runs counter to their objective of controlling loot acquisition raids in order to facilitate content longevity. At the same time, they have to balance system complexity around the lowest common denominator - that's why e.g. making it so that when PL is selected you can't trade freely but with GL you can is not an option, as it confuses the hell out of the Johnny Randoms who would never be quite sure when they can and can't trade something. And PL + free trade is the nightmare scenario that guilds would abuse the hell out of (see above). GL + free trade seems like the least worst of the possible combinations.

    Options are a good thing in principle, but remember: WoW is made for the masses. It needs to work easily and intuitively for people who have trouble operating a washing machine. They're fine limiting the options of a few people who are mad that they aren't getting a system they wouldn't have a problem working with, if it means getting a million of the other kind of people who go "group personal WHAT now gief purple plz k thx".
    We already had that. And we already went over how Blizzard can't win in a battle against degen Liquid, Echo, Method or whatever. You will not win, they will always win.
    We didn't get to instant BiS back in Legion either, yet we had all 3 options there.

    They are still hampering the entire playerbase because they're afraid of what the top 1% of the top 1% of the top 1% are doing in their meaningless race to world #50.
  1. Biomega's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    We already had that. And we already went over how Blizzard can't win in a battle against degen Liquid, Echo, Method or whatever. You will not win, they will always win.
    It's not just about them. Free, unrestricted trading is WAY more degen than ilvl restrictions, because it encourages throwaway characters who are there only as warm bodies to feed others. It makes it vastly easier to pull off especially at the heroic level, which means it wouldn't be something restricted to the Echo and Liquid guilds of the world (which as you rightly say will always degen the degens no matter what) but will enter into more mainstream practice.

    This is not a problem exclusive to the RWF. Unrestricted trading with PL would make armor-stacking loot-gobble runs the default WAY down the ladder.
  1. Warning's Avatar
    The special, rarer drops on bosses is a good idea. However I'd also like them to make items less formulaic in general. The reason good items used to be more memorable and interesting was because there were also a whole lot of kinda crap ones. They need to not be afraid to make bad items, so the good ones can feel special again. A new item having 4-8% more of the exact same stats in practically the same distribution is not great. Items should be more handcrafted.
  1. Gasparde's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    It's not just about them. Free, unrestricted trading is WAY more degen than ilvl restrictions, because it encourages throwaway characters who are there only as warm bodies to feed others. It makes it vastly easier to pull off especially at the heroic level, which means it wouldn't be something restricted to the Echo and Liquid guilds of the world (which as you rightly say will always degen the degens no matter what) but will enter into more mainstream practice.

    This is not a problem exclusive to the RWF. Unrestricted trading with PL would make armor-stacking loot-gobble runs the default WAY down the ladder.
    We had this exact system in Legion and this very much wasn't the defacto loot system for all guilds down the ladder. This is something everyone in the top50 did, it's something some wannabes in the 50-200 range did, it's something some odd random ass #500 guild did, but it's absolutelys not something that defined raiding.

    Can we stop arguing about fictional scenarios that would ruin the game when the alternative is to put restrictions into place that you know will cause similar harm anyways. Like, I can't wait for PuGs to just start tolling need on absolutely everything and then selling shit in raid chat for gold now. Because that is just as likely to happen as a bunch of guilds going degen mode - and I personally just can't wait until some guy decides to roll need on a Jailer Gavel despite already having a socketed one equipped and then not trading the new one away.
  1. Biomega's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    We had this exact system in Legion and this very much wasn't the defacto loot system for all guilds down the ladder.
    But things evolve.

    We also didn't have WF guilds doing 500 split runs and spending 20 trillion gold. Now we do. It's a system of escalating standards, and what people didn't consider 5 or 10 years ago or whatever cannot be taken as the status quo going forward. People have demonstrated repeatedly that they'll go further and further. There is no reason to expect that they wouldn't escalate this as well, as they have all other things over time, just because that's not something they did in 2016.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    Can we stop arguing about fictional scenarios that would ruin the game when the alternative is to put restrictions into place that you know will cause similar harm anyways.
    I doubt this would even come CLOSE to the potential harm of unrestricted PL. Especially in the broad middle segment of the population, where most of WoW takes place. Very little changes for the average player in the average runs. You only exchange different extremes, and limit where and how much those extremes deviate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    Like, I can't wait for PuGs to just start tolling need on absolutely everything and then selling shit in raid chat for gold now.
    Already happened with PL. Got an item you don't need? Sell it for gold or tokens. I remember Ra-Den trinkets in Ny'alotha. Happened many times exactly like that.

    There is absolutely nothing suggesting that you can roll Need on something you couldn't otherwise just have gotten from PL. Effectively, PL is just everyone rolling Need anyway. Now you can get people who pass.

Site Navigation