Blade Flurry should not be nerfed that much.

[Javanface]

I'll be playing assassination! And yes it still will be better, but it won't be so much better that I will have to go Combat just for the cleaves, Which in my mind is the reason for the change so people don't have to swap for one or two fights in the tier

Eh? Any decent guild will realize there's really no up side to stacking melee so in a 10-man raid group you're likely to just have two spots. On a fight where cleaving is good, why would your guild bring you over a warrior or dk? If speccing combat isn't worth it for the cleave, then we just end up with two specs that are well behind the rest on the fights that favor such abilities.

I play assassination as well and I don't like being forced to play combat either as the spec is horribly clunky imo. But, making all specs crap at cleaving and ace at single target dps will have us sitting on the bench for any fight that requires cleaving to make enrage timers.

[Koji2k11]

Eh? Any decent guild will realize there's really no up side to stacking melee so in a 10-man raid group you're likely to just have two spots. On a fight where cleaving is good, why would your guild bring you over a warrior or dk? If speccing combat isn't worth it for the cleave, then we just end up with two specs that are well behind the rest on the fights that favor such abilities.

I play assassination as well and I don't like being forced to play combat either as the spec is horribly clunky imo. But, making all specs crap at cleaving and ace at single target dps will have us sitting on the bench for any fight that requires cleaving to make enrage timers.

only hope i have is that t15 is single target fights only so i dont give a fk about BF anymore if not assassination is the spec to go with. unless they nerf the shit out of assassination too

[Deleted]

Eh, I don't think I totally buy that. I get that you won't feel the pressure any more. But honestly, if the fight matters, sit the rogue, bring a hybrid melee. Hell, make the rogue reroll warrior, whose second place (soon to be first by a mile) cleave + sweeping strikes is already aces (and they don't give up burst actual aoe to do it either, as that's not tied to their spec in the same way it is for rogues). This makes us little kid warriors.

I also don't know if you noticed this, but PLENTY of fights reward warriors for going into zerker stance, pushing their single target decently above rogues. That can be ok, as long as there are fights where you really want to bring the rogue- and not just for a trivial boost. Blade Flurry is a big part of that small set of reasons, and this deletes it. There will be no naturally occurring fight situation that benefits rogues.

So far, the rule is "Bring the player. not the class".

And your point is ridicilous. On 11 out of 12 heroic fights, one or both rogue speccs are ahead of warriors. On 9 out of 12 heroic fights, rogues are best melee dps. On the other 3, they are the second best melee dds, beaten by enhancement on Windwalker (AOE involved), frost dks on ambershaper and warriors on Elegon. So only on fights with special mechanics.

So far it loosk like there might be some little niches (say heavy Execute fvors Warriors), but rogue DPS is clearly the best melee dps. And compared to retribution palas, your dps is miles ahead. I would never ever take a retribution pala or warrior, enhancer or a monk dd over a rogue.

[crakerjack]

Why not revert Blade flurry back to how it used to be? What was so wrong with it being a CD?

[taaveti]

I would really like to clear something up for those that aren't that informed in combat rogues.
Firstly, I think most of us here actually agree that the current Blade Flurry needs to be nerfed, that's not what we are arguing here, we are concerned by the magnitude of the nerf.

Secondly, the 100% cleave damage as in current setting does not come freely, we do suffer an energy regen penalty when the skill it toggled - which is actually quite a significant decrease on our damage to the primary target (unlike sweeping strike), the cleave also have a very narrow range - which means we won't be doing as much cleave damage unless the conditions are ideal.
Taking the Stone Guardian LFR as an example, even under the most ideal conditions for a cleave fight, I only find myself to be doing roughly 40%-50% more dps than versus a single target (from around 88k to 130k). So no, we don't do 100% extra damage with a 100% cleave even under ideal conditions.
If the nerf stay in release as it is now, factoring in the energy regen penalty being unchanged, we would be doing at best 10% more damage on a fight that is 100% ideal for cleaving. In other less ideal fights it would probably be closer to ~7-8% more damage only during the time we can cleave. You may actually do more damage by going assassination and multi-rupture, and it won't even be close to the other strong cleave specs.

Also combat rogues have horrible AoE damage compared to many other specs. I have always considered being able to cleave to be a special niche for the combat, just like specs being strong at AoE or multi-doting. If the magnitude of the nerf stays as it is, that would really be no difference than say nerfing multi-dots on DoT classes (Dots on your secondary targets now only deal 25% of their damage, yeah you can still multi-dot, and yeah it will still be a damage increase).

Imo I would probably accept a 50% cleave, maybe a smaller %cleave with a significantly lower penalty, or just revert it to be the cooldown it used to be. Anything lower than that would just taking away the entire niche of the combat spec (aside from looking cool dual-wielding swords/claws which we just got back this expansion).

[Deleted]

only hope i have is that t15 is single target fights only so i dont give a fk about BF anymore if not assassination is the spec to go with. unless they nerf the shit out of assassination too

Single target fights:
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Imperial_...11100000000000
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade_Lor...11100000000000
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Feng_the_...11100000000000
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Gara%27ja...11100000000000
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Spiri...11100000000000
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Will_of_t...10100000000000

No need to worry about single target dps. Assa rogues is definitely the bestsingle target melee dps specc by far.

The one problem rogues might get is if the next tier is melee unfriendly. Expecially for 10m raids, it's very hard for every melee spec to get a spot. But that's not because of dps problems, this is a melee problem in 10m design.

---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 12:11 AM ----------

Why not revert Blade flurry back to how it used to be? What was so wrong with it being a CD?

Well that's the question. It worked like that for 6 years, suddenly they had to change it, leading to absurd cleave, leading to class stacking on cleave fights, especially 2target cleaves.

It's not like combat was a cleave specc until Cata. They are now fixing one of their biggest mistakes. Making one class overpowered doesn't lead to more players playing it. It leads to frustration for those who have to sit out because their spec is so weak compared to another class.

[Deleted]

I would really like to clear something up for those that aren't that informed in combat rogues.
Firstly, I think most of us here actually agree that the current Blade Flurry needs to be nerfed, that's not what we are arguing here, we are concerned by the magnitude of the nerf.

Secondly, the 100% cleave damage as in current setting does not come freely, we do suffer an energy regen penalty when the skill it toggled - which is actually quite a significant decrease on our damage to the primary target (unlike sweeping strike), the cleave also have a very narrow range - which means we won't be doing as much cleave damage unless the conditions are ideal.
Taking the Stone Guardian LFR as an example, even under the most ideal conditions for a cleave fight, I only find myself to be doing roughly 40%-50% more dps than versus a single target (from around 88k to 130k). So no, we don't do 100% extra damage with a 100% cleave even under ideal conditions.
If the nerf stay in release as it is now, factoring in the energy regen penalty being unchanged, we would be doing at best 10% more damage on a fight that is 100% ideal for cleaving. In other less ideal fights it would probably be closer to ~7-8% more damage only during the time we can cleave. You may actually do more damage by going assassination and multi-rupture, and it won't even be close to the other strong cleave specs.

Also combat rogues have horrible AoE damage compared to many other specs. I have always considered being able to cleave to be a special niche for the combat, just like specs being strong at AoE or multi-doting. If the magnitude of the nerf stays as it is, that would really be no difference than say nerfing multi-dots on DoT classes (Dots on your secondary targets now only deal 25% of their damage, yeah you can still multi-dot, and yeah it will still be a damage increase).

Imo I would probably accept a 50% cleave, or maybe a smaller %cleave with a significantly lower penalty. Heck, even reverting it to be the cooldown it used to be would be better than this abomination currently on the patch note.

You actually know that most speccs also have no cleave at all on two target fights?

You are talking like it's a natural right to cleave for absurd amounts.

Perhaps it will go up to 40%. PErhaps it will be 30% on two additional targets. 50% will be very strong, just to clarify, on two target fights. I've taken some logs of Stone Guards, even a 30% would be enogu to be P1 in the raid. 25% would be slightly behind the fire mage.

Don't ever forget that this nerf comes with a 4% dps increase AT ALL TIMES. Maybe 25% is too much nerf, but 50% is surely too strong on two target fights. Maybe 25% on three additional targets or four addtional targets (on five targets, it would do the same dps as it currently does)? Go up to 30% and up to 5 targets would even be a big buff to AOE (currently it's 100%, no matter how many targets after 2, after that, it could be 150% on fights like Windwalker, so a real dps increase).

Would also solve the aoe problem.

[Deleted]

It leads to frustration for those who have to sit out because their specs is so weak compared to another class.

*Cringe*
I'm just going to assume you meant class instead of spec.

[taaveti]

You actually know that most speccs also have no cleave at all on two target fights?

You are talking like it's a natural right to cleave for absurd amounts.

Perhaps it will go up to 40%. PErhaps it will be 30% on two additional targets. 50% will be very strong, just to clarify, on two target fights. I've taken some logs of Stone Guards, even a 30% would be enogu to be P1 in the raid. 25% would be slightly behind the fire mage.

Don't ever forget that this nerf comes with a 4% dps increase AT ALL TIMES. Maybe 25% is too much nerf, but 50% is surely too strong on two target fights. Maybe 25% on three additional targets or four addtional targets (on five targets, it would do the same dps as it currently does)? Go up to 30% and up to 5 targets would even be a big buff to AOE (currently it's 100%, no matter how many targets after 2, after that, it could be 150% on fights like Windwalker, so a real dps increase).

Would also solve the aoe problem.

I do believe that every spec have some way to benefit in a two target fight, it is the magnitude of the benefit that matters.
And I did say in the first paragraph that I agree the current BF is overpowered.
Glancing through some of the top parses, blade flurry amount to ~44% of the total damage on Stone Guardian 10H. With the nerf of BF to 25%, we would be ~9% behind of arms warrior/frost dks of similiar rank, and nowhere near to fire mages who were very close to our damages before the nerf.

[Verain]

You simply ask to be overpowered.

Nope. I mean, is it overpowered that a warrior can spec to an entirely different role?

All classes have to be in kind of a balance.

Yea, and without blade flurry rogues won't be. Again, little kid warriors.

[taaveti]

*Cringe*
I'm just going to assume you meant class instead of spec.

Oh don't have to bother with that, it was just a bad copy and paste on my part
Also I believe we have been told countless time that they wanted specs within a class to be roughly equal. I am not complaining that I would have to switch to assassination, because I already did. I am perfectly fine to switch to the spec my raid needs me to be. I am just disappointed with them on reducing combat back to the 'easy-to-play, fun-when-you-want-to-dual-wield-swords-but-otherwise-nothing-distinctive' spec that it used to be.

[Deleted]

Oh don't have to bother with that, it was just a bad copy and paste on my part
Also I believe we have been told countless time that they wanted specs within a class to be roughly equal. I am not complaining that I will have to switch to assassination, because I already did. I am totally fine to switch to the spec my raid needs me to be. I am just disappointed with them on reducing combat back to the 'easy-to-play, fun-when-you-want-to-dual-wield-swords-but-otherwise-nothing-distinctive' spec that it used to be.

Sorry, my little pet peeve is starting to get out of hand. Nothing personal!

I suppose you have a point there as well. But that is the main reason why I've been complaining about the new Revealing Strike since the start of MoP. The Cataclysm version of Revealing Strike felt a lot more active and like you had to pay attention. There were times where you suddenly had to change your rotation (for the lack of a better way to describe it) because you got an unexpected extra combo point. This little excitement within the Combat spec is what I missed. Combat felt like a very active and fast paced spec because of it. Now you are almost mindlessly keeping Revealing Strike active and you can easily predict what you have to manage over the next few seconds.

I like how you can now save combo points for a higher Insight with Anticipation, but that's where my excitement for the Combat spec ends. I really feel like they went the wrong way with the Combat spec. But seeing as so many Rogues actually do like the 'new' Combat, I'm guessing I'm just the odd one out.

[Ryve]

Why people who dont know/play combat rogues post in this section ?

Blade flurry has always been the combat rogue's special way of play.

Take that away and its like taking away wings to paladins.

What are you talking about? Blade flurry isn't combat's "special way of play", it's an ability that is only used on cleave fights, while providing a large DPS gain... What the hell are rogues raiding combat doing the rest of the time?

Given all of the single target buffs rogues are receiving, flurry nerf isn't comparable to taking away a paladins wings, leaving blade flurry the same would be more like giving pallies their wings as a permanent buff.

[xChurch]

Put it back to how it was, 2 min CD with a haste buff and no energy reduction =D

[eijin]

since the other thread got closed:

I'd like to see it as a CD as it once was personally, or even better, a mechanic where you can switch between 2 targets and still continue building CP to the same pool. something along the lines of:

SS person 1, have 1 CP
SS person 2, have 2 CP and do 20% of SS's damage to person 1
SS person 1, have 3 CP and do 40% of SS's damage to person 2
SS person 2, have 4 CP and do 60% of SS's damage to person 1
SS person 1, have 5 CP and do 80% of SS's damage to person 2
evis either, use the the 5 CP and do 100% the damage to both.

Maybe have it include 3-5 targets and have every target tagged by it take the 20/40/60/80/100% damage (so hitting 2 for 20 then 3 for 40 and so on till ultimately doing finisher damage to all 5)
its only the SS and evis damage (not auto attack) so not OP.

[Djolisimo]

I'd give half the new buffs just to have Blade Flurry stay. Aside from replacing the most useless talent in the history of talents (Versatility), those changes if they go live will make rogues extremely op and will just beg for swift nerfs. Blade Flurry is combat's bread and butter and seeing it becoming useless makes me very sad, since I've played only combat so far and enjoy it very much.

[Verain]

So far, the rule is "Bring the player. not the class".

No, that's the stated goal. Blade Flurry brings us to that. Otherwise it's "Bring the hybrid, not the pure".

[whathump]

No, that's the stated goal. Blade Flurry brings us to that. Otherwise it's "Bring the hybrid, not the pure".

You don't even have to play that well to beat everyone in cleave damage as combat. Heroic Stone Guard, I don't even reforge for combat (waste of 500g for a farm fight once a week) and I use a dagger in my main hand cause I've never gotten a fist weapon from raids, and I still outdps everyone in my raid. I can royally screw up the rotation (like it's even possible) or not even bother trying, and I'll still be on top above the double dotters. It just goes to show blade flurry is way stronger than it should be right now. Perhaps a 75% nerf is a bit much. Maybe just have it at 30-40% of damage transferring. Or Blizzard could just do what it should and make it an actual CD instead of "click once for loldps."

[Chult]

You don't even have to play that well to beat everyone in cleave damage as combat. Heroic Stone Guard, I don't even reforge for combat (waste of 500g for a farm fight once a week) and I use a dagger in my main hand cause I've never gotten a fist weapon from raids, and I still outdps everyone in my raid. I can royally screw up the rotation (like it's even possible) or not even bother trying, and I'll still be on top above the double dotters. It just goes to show blade flurry is way stronger than it should be right now. Perhaps a 75% nerf is a bit much. Maybe just have it at 30-40% of damage transferring. Or Blizzard could just do what it should and make it an actual CD instead of "click once for loldps."

All this tells us is that the other people in your raid group are terrible.

We do not need 3 DPS specs which to the same thing. Any idiot can bring pretty good single target DPS.

The Rogue class has a good toolkit for every situation spread across 3 specs. If you choose to take advantage of those tools available to you, you can do well in nearly any situation. If you don't, you should probably learn to, and stop having a "pet" spec. This only limits what the class as a whole can do, and also limits our value to a Raid group.

[whathump]

All this tells us is that the other people in your raid group are terrible.

They're not even close to being terrible or mediocre. All of them have ranked on at least one fight. Combat is just retarded OP with cleaves.