Throne of Thunder - World First Heroic Thread!

[Deleted]

I won't lie. I'm probably a bit skewed on my favoritism towards Lei Shen atm, but I honestly don't see it coming off a top 5 list at any point; maybe just adjusting the order.

The lack of kills on the boss going on the 3rd reset since Method killed it speaks volumes on the difficultly of the encounter as a whole. It was such a well tuned fight and will stand the test of time, no doubt.

I think a good way to judge a fight is the number of wipes you're having after the first kill. I don't know about you but I think Pragon killed him pretty fast the second time they got there.

[NeverStop]

Looks like Method's strat worked out for Envy.

[JimmyMcNulty]

There's a difference in comparing these, you started firelands with 372/379 item level on your heroic geared raid and the gear "peak" was at 391/397, but in ToT you started from around 510 ilvl and the peak is 541ilvl, the difference is much bigger. While i do agree that Lei shen has more personal skill involved, Ragnaros required the raid to work better as a team imo. And i dont really like the randomness with which class gets which ability on lei shen, which can make or break the fight in crucial moments.

[Gondlem]

I dunno, the really unique thing about Lei Shen to me is that it really tests all 25 raiders at the same time, during parts of the fight. Yogg-0, for example, was a really hard fight but the hardest part was the final phase and that phase rested pretty heavily on your tanks, tank healers and hunter(s). The rest of the raid obviously still had to play well but realistically their job was simple and a lot of the final phase was just a huge DPS check. You'd wipe if the people handling the add separation made a mistake, and if they didn't you'd be a shot to kill it if you did enough damage.

On Lei Shen, we literally assign every person in the raid a position in the room and a task in the final phase, and if any of them make a mistake we're probably wiping. I've done all the fights people list as being among the hardest ever but I've never done a fight like Lei Shen before. I'm not necessarily saying it's the hardest ever, it probably depends on your perspective, but it's definitely close.

[Deleted]

I won't lie. I'm probably a bit skewed on my favoritism towards Lei Shen atm, but I honestly don't see it coming off a top 5 list at any point; maybe just adjusting the order.

The lack of kills on the boss going on the 3rd reset since Method killed it speaks volumes on the difficultly of the encounter as a whole. It was such a well tuned fight and will stand the test of time, no doubt.

Agreed.

This guy takes my #1 favourite boss spot

[JimmyMcNulty]

But when 2 Dks get Static Shock in phase 3 its a different game compared to when a rogue and a mage get it...i hate the RNG the fight can have.

[jsz]

How many wipes is H-Lei Shen taking for Paragon/Method/BL now?

[Mouri Kogorou]

How many wipes is H-Lei Shen taking for Paragon/Method/BL now?

3-4 for paragon 2nd kill, i believe 10 for method 2nd kill?

[Macco]

i believe 10 for method 2nd kill?

4-5 on 2nd and 3rd kill

[Deleted]

I believe method stated that they 5 killed it on 1st reset

[Mammoon]

So from what I am reading... Blizzard could create a boss in 5.4 that has an enrage timer of 20 seconds and trillions of health.... and requires the entire raid to have ilvl 9000+ gear and last for 5+ years (only because of his gear requirements).... but no mechanics at all other than when he hits enrage he 1 shots everyone.... and this would be the greatest boss blizzard has ever created?

[Valanna]

So from what I am reading... Blizzard could create a boss in 5.4 that has an enrage timer of 20 seconds and trillions of health.... and requires the entire raid to have ilvl 9000+ gear and last for 5+ years (only because of his gear requirements).... but no mechanics at all other than when he hits enrage he 1 shots everyone.... and this would be the greatest boss blizzard has ever created?

Obviously. Possibly the silliest strawman I've ever seen right here.

[LordBalkoth]

Let me introduce a completely arbitrary standard. How long did it take you to kill a boss a 2nd time after you killed him the first time. I remember watching Paragon wipe on Rag for HOURS when they were giving a presentation at a fan show after their world first kill. I remember watching Vodka wipe endlessly on rag (on their stream) after they killed him the first time. To me Rag>Lei Shen based on this subjective reasoning.

[Sil]

I believe method stated that they 5 killed it on 1st reset

That low? Last i heard was 34 times.

[asdfsaf]

method have yet to kill lei shen a second time. they've been unable to down him again after marilinas leaving.

Don't troll. -Azshira

[eschatological]

Let me introduce a completely arbitrary standard. How long did it take you to kill a boss a 2nd time after you killed him the first time. I remember watching Paragon wipe on Rag for HOURS when they were giving a presentation at a fan show after their world first kill. I remember watching Vodka wipe endlessly on rag (on their stream) after they killed him the first time. To me Rag>Lei Shen based on this subjective reasoning.

On fights with huge mechanics-checks, it's not hard to repeat a kill. You know what works for you and your team. On a fight with huge DPS checks, like H-Rag p3, you can still wipe if you're still not at a comfortable gear level.

TBH, the mechanics of H-Rag were not that difficult outside of the seed killing (which in and of itself ended up being a burst AoE check, the way Paragon did it). You didn't need to spread out except in p1 (and that was trivial), and on p2 you just grouped up and had good movement on the seeds, and that's basically the hardest positional awareness you needed. If you got Engulfed in Flames, that was just pretty bad in general. P4 was a clusterfuck of getting in the triangle, but once you were in the triangle, it was a joke. It's just that pushing p3 in the time needed to get a good number of meteors was an insane DPS check. Which is why you saw a 3 heal 25 man fight get world first (in conjunction with an unintended design with the triangle stacking in p4).

[Senen]

method have yet to kill lei shen a second time. they've been unable to down him again after marilinas leaving.

Nice trolling attempt.
Too bad it's false.

[Jainzar]

That low? Last i heard was 34 times.

well once you have killed it and people know how to deal with the mechanics of the fight properly, it shouldn't be that hard to kill it again.

you just need some luck with rng on static shocks and / or a perfect raid setup and reach phase 3 with 2+ battle rezzes, then the gear will take care of everything else if you handle it properly.

[eschatological]

Agreed.

This guy takes my #1 favourite boss spot

Interesting raid comp, btw. I'm guessing Mione wasn't blood and just switched back to the soloing spec post kill? 3 hunters, only one mage, 3 locks, one rogue and TWO rets and TWO spriests? Other assorted boomkin and DKs, nothing surprising there.

[Deleted]

http://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/5803

Check out the pace of the Heroic Rag kills once the first two guilds killed it. Thats 12 guilds in two raid cycles. We're going on cycle number 3 for Lei Shen and are just now at 5 kills (10+25 combined). People tend to hold on to older fights out of pure nostalgia. Give it two years and people will be hanging on to Lei Shen in the same manner. I think Rag was a lot easier than most people make it out to be. Don't take that the wrong way; I still think it was a very hard encounter, it just didn't require the same individual skill requirement as some of the others on the list.

You cannot just say that we are on cycle number 3 already and because of that Lei Shen is harder.

Majordomo first kill occurred Jul 8 for Paragon. Rag Jul 19. That's 11 days of progress.
For Envy the dates are Jul 9 and Jul 28. 19 days of progress
For Exorsus the dates are Jul 10 and Aug 10. 1 month of progress
For Method Jul 8 and Jul 26. 18 days of progress
For Blood Legion Jul 10 and Aug 12. 1 month of progress

Now let's take a look at the amount of time it took these guilds to progress from Twins to Lei Shen:

Paragon: 7 days of progress < 11 days of progress
Method: 6 days of progress < 18 days of progress
Envy: 17 days of progress < 19 days of progress
Exorsus: 13 days of progress < 1 month
Blood Legion: 12 days of progress < 1 month

Now granted that some of these guilds have improved their roster over the years, especially BL and Exorsus (if we look at the rankings chance), but there is no way you can twist the disparity between the time it took to kill each end boss to make it look like Lei Shen is actually the harder one. No way that all of those guilds are now thrice as good as they were back then.

Also. If we take 1 month as the marker after the first kill by Paragon, a total of 23 guilds killed Ragnaros from Jul 19 to Aug 19, that included 6 10man guilds. At the 2-week-mark the situation was exactly the same as it is now with Lei Shen, besides the fact that just 1 10man kill has occurred, not 2.

Clearly this data says nothing, but I believe it is also wisely considered to be the "truth" that Ragnaros was much easier on 10man than on 25man?

You also have to look at how many wipes each boss took. Going from a minimum of 550 wipes (Paragon, 700+ for the others!) to a minimum of 340 makes it look like Ragnaros was actually harder. Again, top guild players just don't get TWICE as good in two years.

Lei Shen also has much more RNG involved in terms of who is the person getting Static Shock. Can he solosoak it or not? That alone can determine the course of many tries in my eyes.

TL;DR: So far it seems more like the opposite.