Holy mother 10man nerf

[Deleted]

I am sure that it was blizzards design and intention that people sit in T14 til the cows come home before going onto Tot.

Which is a bit daft, because theres no chance. It's almost as if they refuse to accomodate their own players for some reason.....

Well, they make content, they want you to play it.
Not do 2 bosses, then give up, and expect to faceroll the next tier ...

This is the intent with faster patches as well - you now have more content than before (you currently have 4 raids !!) but you are simply saying 'i dont wanna do old raids because they are old'.
In that case, they could have released 5.2 raids in September 2013 .... But all the people who HAVE already clearled content would be pissed.
This is the best solution : people can catch up, others can progress.
Before, you'd have the people who cleared tghe content just stop playing for 5 months until the new raid came out ...

[Vasya111]

If a third of the population can interrupt 1-second casts, a third of them can interrupt 3-second casts and a third of them can interrupt 5-second casts, where is the flaw in calling the first group "good", the second group "average" and the third group "poor"? It's true almost by definition.

You forgot to mention which of them knows that they should interrupt. If i understand you correctly, that knowledge affect player's skill so much that it makes difference between bad player and not bad.

[Deleted]

Well, they make content, they want you to play it.
Not do 2 bosses, then give up, and expect to faceroll the next tier ...

They obviously seem to want that.

But the players don't seem to be too interested in such a model.

This is the intent with faster patches as well - you now have more content than before (you currently have 4 raids !!) but you are simply saying 'i dont wanna do old raids because they are old'.
In that case, they could have released 5.2 raids in September 2013 .... But all the people who HAVE already clearled content would be pissed.
This is the best solution : people can catch up, others can progress.
Before, you'd have the people who cleared tghe content just stop playing for 5 months until the new raid came out ...

But as they are a small amount of players, that's not much of an issue.

[Definition]

Awesome, faster alt runs. These nerfs won't affect many people since the majority of people are finishing normal and getting into HM. They just seem to make the first half a bit easier to pug

[Deleted]

Sorry, I disagree. Strats are pretty standard, and individual performance is important in normals. Someone who joins us on Jin'rokh might not know in which order we generally get tanks thrown to pillars, but he'll know all the standard tactics for the fight, and doing significantly higher DPS than my chaps more than makes up for that one bit of knowledge he's missing.

If there were a showstopping issue with us, we wouldn't ordinarily clear normal modes. And if we were alone in this, Blizzard wouldn't have made these changes.

Look i don't wanna get into the specifics of your raid group in this thread, but yes if a pugger comes in at same item level and destroys your crew's DPS, then yes there is something your crew wasnt doing in the first place.

Sure there a lot of people who can't get horridown (ha !). You will never be alone in a situation when there are 9 million players. It doesn't mean they/you are all doing the best they can/should.

[ThePants999]

You forgot to mention which of them knows that they should interrupt. If i understand you correctly, that knowledge affect player's skill so much that it makes difference between bad player and not bad.

No, you haven't understood - and I don't believe that you honestly thought that's what I was saying. Interrupts are an example of one of the typical differences between different qualities of player. I obviously was not saying that they are the single defining difference, and if you teach a bad player to interrupt you instantly make them good. Come on, give me some credit please - don't assume I'm a moron.

You said, in post #200: "What matter that if you cant dodge punch, knowing that you should means shit and should not be counted as a part of your skill." In other words, if you take two players who are identical in every respect, except that one knows he should interrupt but is too slow to actually manage it, and the other doesn't even know what an interrupt is, you're saying the first player's additional knowledge is irrelevant and the two people have equal skill.

I'm saying that the first player WOULD manage to interrupt a spell with a longer cast time, and the second player still would not. Therefore there is a difference between them, and knowledge of interrupts should be counted as part of your skill.

[Candiman]

Awesome, faster alt runs. These nerfs won't affect many people since the majority of people are finishing normal and getting into HM. They just seem to make the first half a bit easier to pug

Actually these nerfs will affect a lot of people. The majority of guilds that have killed Jin'Rohk are still on the first 4 bosses in ToT. Only 15% of those guilds have killed Lei Shen. Hardly a majority

[ThePants999]

Look i don't wanna get into the specifics of your raid group in this thread, but yes if a pugger comes in at same item level and destroys your crew's DPS, then yes there is something your crew wasnt doing in the first place.

Sure there a lot of people who can't get horridown (ha !). You will never be alone in a situation when there are 9 million players. It doesn't mean they/you are all doing the best they can/should.

Of course there's something we're not doing. Of course we're not doing the best we can. No argument there!

My post was purely intended to address some people's misconception that anyone who finds normal modes a challenge is too bad for normal modes. We're definitely at the lower end of normal mode raiders, but we're still part of Blizzard's target audience for normal modes - and that's why they're nerfing them.

[Deleted]

Actually these nerfs will affect a lot of people. The majority of guilds that have killed Jin'Rohk are still on the first 4 bosses in ToT. Only 15% of those guilds have killed Lei Shen. Hardly a majority

Thats the point.
If you havent cleared at least half of the normal modes by now, there is something you are doing wrong.
You are either undergeared (under 500?) or using a bad strategy on a certain boss.

[AeneasBK]

Of course there's something we're not doing. Of course we're not doing the best we can. No argument there!

My post was purely intended to address some people's misconception that anyone who finds normal modes a challenge is too bad for normal modes. We're definitely at the lower end of normal mode raiders, but we're still part of Blizzard's target audience for normal modes - and that's why they're nerfing them.

Yeah, guilds that could *clear* tiers on heroic previously when they were current had trouble starting heroic modes in tier 14. Anyone who tries to pretend normal mode raiding now isn't a LOT harder than all previous expansions is kidding themselves. Or trying to sound all "pro - douche"

[Vasya111]

You said, in post #200: "What matter that if you cant dodge punch, knowing that you should means shit and should not be counted as a part of your skill." In other words, if you take two players who are identical in every respect, except that one knows he should interrupt but is too slow to actually manage it, and the other doesn't even know what an interrupt is, you're saying the first player's additional knowledge is irrelevant and the two people have equal skill.

I'm saying that the first player WOULD manage to interrupt a spell with a longer cast time, and the second player still would not. Therefore there is a difference between them, and knowledge of interrupts should be counted as part of your skill.

Well, i didnt mean that they have absolutely equal skill, i meant that this difference in skill is neglible, so saying "they cant follow fight mechanics, but they know about them, so they are not bad" is not right. Come on, give me some credit please - don't assume I'm a moron.

Also, that your players cant interrupt 1 sec cast skills is not their reaction's fault, but their awareness. Since they are middle aged mans they can find a way to resolve this problem by improving their user interfaces and controls.

[Deleted]

Of course there's something we're not doing. Of course we're not doing the best we can. No argument there!

My post was purely intended to address some people's misconception that anyone who finds normal modes a challenge is too bad for normal modes. We're definitely at the lower end of normal mode raiders, but we're still part of Blizzard's target audience for normal modes - and that's why they're nerfing them.

Wait a second ...
you are saying you find normal modes a challenge (you welcome the nerf)

you are saying anyone who finds normal modes a challenge is too bad for normal modes
you are agreeing you are not doing everything you can do to beat the content
you state you are at the lower end of normal mode raiders

And yet you feel it legitimate to nerf the content because its too hard ?

Where does this stop ? Nerf until the lower lower end raiders can clear the content ? What do you need, like 80% hp reduction ?
Again, there are PLENTY of ways in game to help you clear the content, but you decide not to use them. Okaaaaaaay .....

[Candiman]

Thats the point.
If you havent cleared at least half of the normal modes by now, there is something you are doing wrong.
You are either undergeared (under 500?) or using a bad strategy on a certain boss.

But how can you say that when the majority of guilds are still on the first 4 bosses and by definition are threfore average.

[ThePants999]

Well, i didnt mean that they have absolutely equal skill, i meant that this difference in skill is neglible, so saying "they cant follow fight mechanics, but they know about them, so they are not bad" is not right. Come on, give me some credit please - don't assume I'm a moron.

Apologies for assuming you meant what you said :-P You very clearly said "should not be counted as part of your skill". When you mean "a small number", don't say "zero", or you'll find yourself arguing with people who don't actually disagree with you ;-)

And on that subject, I'm not sure where we're going. As I said to Eiffeltower: "My post was purely intended to address some people's misconception that anyone who finds normal modes a challenge is too bad for normal modes. We're definitely at the lower end of normal mode raiders, but we're still part of Blizzard's target audience for normal modes - and that's why they're nerfing them." Do you actually disagree with my point? Or are we just nitpicking about exactly where my guild is on the scale between "bad" and "average"?

[Deleted]

Wait a second ...
you are saying you find normal modes a challenge (you welcome the nerf)

you are saying anyone who finds normal modes a challenge is too bad for normal modes
you are agreeing you are not doing everything you can do to beat the content
you state you are at the lower end of normal mode raiders

And yet you feel it legitimate to nerf the content because its too hard ?

Where does this stop ? Nerf until the lower lower end raiders can clear the content ? What do you need, like 80% hp reduction ?
Again, there are PLENTY of ways in game to help you clear the content, but you decide not to use them. Okaaaaaaay .....

It's already been said where it stops - when 50% ish of the guilds who start the tier finish it.

[clevin]

To the folks using analogies above... Stop. You're talking past one another and it's just distracting. Plus, analogies never map to the topic perfectly so you get caught explaining the discrepancies.

ON the nerfs... Horridon was slightly overtuned. Not a lot, just a bit. It seemed to assume you have 500+ gear and the fact is that almost no one will be at that level if they've done only T14N. It's impossible since, aside from elite protectors, all of the gear is 489 or 496. Yes, eventually people would have gotten 522 VP gear but that's behind rep and the VP cap limit.

The problem isn't that people wouldn't eventually get the gear to more easilly kill him it's that too many people would simply stop bothering. After all, while the trash to Jinrokh is minimal, the trash to Horridon takes awhile because of the wind bridges. Clearing all of that and then wiping serially on Horridon would just get old. Now, could some people in 49x gear kill him? Perhaps (though few did). But they had to be closer to perfect on interrupts, dispells, immediately focusing things down, etc because they didn't have the gear to compensate for slight mistakes. At 510 I'm sure he's trivial since, as long as you get mechanics mostly right, you easily have the gear to kill the adds quickly and can compensate for the odd mistake here and there. This nerf feels like it moves his adds down from being comfortable at 502 or so to being comfortable to do at 496 or so. That's where it should have been in the first place.

Frankly, the first 3 bosses in a raid should be doable by a good raid (not an awesome raid, just people who are good) in gear from the previous tier at the same difficulty setting, That is, if you're in normal gear you should be able to kill the first 2 or 3 bosses in the next tier on normal). That gives you some sense of progress and some bosses to farm for gear and for rep. You should not need either heroic kills from the previous tier or the new tier's VP gear just to get at the first couple of bosses.

Oh and the TBC model was fine IF you had enough for 25s. The issue was less that people raided several tiers at once and more that you only could move past Kara if you had 25 people. Too, it was one thing to be farming TK for a bit for vials and completely another to be stuck there months after BT was out. In that vein, it's fine for people to still be finishing Terrace a bit (we are since we only started raiding a couple of months ago), but we shouldn't need to farm T14 for 2 or 3 months just to be able to move past the second boss in ToT.

[Deleted]

But how can you say that when the majority of guilds are still on the first 4 bosses and by definition are threfore average.

Because the bosses on normal are VERY easy compared to previous tiers if you know what you are doing. I suspect the "average" as you call it, is not doing all they can - farming old tiers, valor, capping and using using mogu charms etc. There's abundant evidence in this thread this is the case.

[Deleted]

Because the bosses on normal are VERY easy compared to previous tiers if you know what you are doing. I suspect the "average" as you call it, is not doing all they can - farming old tiers, valor, capping and using using mogu charms etc. There's abundant evidence in this thread this is the case.

You are right, loads of players aren't doing "all they could."

They won't do "all they could", ever.

The point is that if that is what the playerbase is like and you want them to clear content, it has to be designed to take the way they are into account.

[clevin]

Because the bosses on normal are VERY easy compared to previous tiers if you know what you are doing. I suspect the "average" as you call it, is not doing all they can - farming old tiers, valor, capping and using using mogu charms etc. There's abundant evidence in this thread this is the case.

God, people like you frustrate the hell out of me. For YOU the bosses are easy. Your viewpoint isn't that of everyone else. Come on people wake the fuck up and realize that there are others in the world and that not everyone is like you and your raid. This is especially true if you're in a raid that's 12/12N T15 and working on heroics a month into the patch. Get a clue - raids like that are at one end of the curve, not in the middle.

And people shouldn't need to farm every last piece of gear from T14 to get past the second boss in T15. That's poor design. Same goes for needing heroic T14 gear. You should be able to do the first few bosses in T15 with 49x gear which is what you'll be in if you've got a decent selection of T14 gear. If you need BiS or close to it from one tier to move past the first boss in the next tier, that next tier is overtuned.

[Vasya111]

Apologies for assuming you meant what you said :-P You very clearly said "should not be counted as part of your skill". When you mean "a small number", don't say "zero", or you'll find yourself arguing with people who don't actually disagree with you ;-)

Well, since im not good at english, sometimes im too lazy to formulate what i exactly want to say, if i already know how to formulate something that is pretty close to that. Sorry.

And on that subject, I'm not sure where we're going. As I said to Eiffeltower: "My post was purely intended to address some people's misconception that anyone who finds normal modes a challenge is too bad for normal modes. We're definitely at the lower end of normal mode raiders, but we're still part of Blizzard's target audience for normal modes - and that's why they're nerfing them." Do you actually disagree with my point? Or are we just nitpicking about exactly where my guild is on the scale between "bad" and "average"?

If that nerf will help you, than perhaps you are right. If you'll still fail and blizzard wont nerf content more, than you perhaps are too bad for normals. I cant actually say where are you between bad and average with the info provided.