Is ToT too challenging causing the guild break ups?

[Glorious Leader]

I'm not actually sure they actually believe this, I think most of them can't simply resist the chance to flaunt their e-peen.

Like anything else in warcraft the value of an action or a reward is almost always defined by the amount of players who can obtain it. It is not something that can be sustained in the long term.

---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 08:32 PM ----------

They quit. A lot of them just quit. Like the tank in my previous guild.

Well yea that to. They can also go to lfr and then quit. Or just get relegated to lfr. Either way they aren't going to do normals.

[TirielWoW]

I'm not actually sure they actually believe this, I think most of them can't simply resist the chance to flaunt their e-peen.

I'll flaunt my e-peen. Half the people in here bitching about how Normals are already "too easy" haven't seen half the content I have. But I was never of the opinion that simply because I have shiny gear and have seen more content than someone else, that that someone else was just stupid and "bad." Hardcore players were all - every last one of us - noobs at some point. Those noobs bashing their heads against the content in ToT right now? THAT WAS ME WHEN I STARTED.

Most people don't seem to remember (or maybe they just don't want to) when they were new, and struggling.

[Hubbl3]

I'm curious what the "optimal" difficulty in raids would be. When 100% of the players interested in raiding could complete normal? When this is the case, would raiding be to easy for people like Glorious Leader? Isn't that the same as LFR? In which time should the average raider be able to complete the content? 1 week? 10 weeks? When the next raid releases? How do we manage heroics? Should everybody that is able to clear normal also be able to clear heroics? What should the effort be? How long should it take to complete heroics?

Should there be brickwall bosses in HC? Like LK HC? Or optional bosses? Algalon? The average guild can kill everything except one boss?

[Glorious Leader]

I'm curious what the "optimal" difficulty in raids would be. When 100% of the players interested in raiding could complete normal? When this is the case, would raiding be to easy for people like Glorious Leader? Isn't that the same as LFR? In which time should the average raider be able to complete the content? 1 week? 10 weeks? When the next raid releases? How do we manage heroics? Should everybody that is able to clear normal also be able to clear heroics? What should the effort be? How long should it take to complete heroics?

Should there be brickwall bosses in HC? Like LK HC? Or optional bosses? Algalon?

My signature is what should be done with raiding. Fundamentally the developers have to stop thinking about the game from a top down perspective. It is no longer important to serve and cater to the vanity of the a tiny minority of heroic raiders. It costs them dearly whenever they do. It is more important about what the bottom 99% can do then the top 1%. That should be there concern.

For the record my guild is 9/12N should be 10 and probably 11 this week. We will be well ahead of 5.4 and be "ahead of the curve"

[Exystredofar]

ToT hard? On most normal fights u barely even have to move (Jin'rokh, council, tortos, megaera, jikun, durumu, dark animus, primordius, twins.) As DPS there is zero fucks given about whats going on, u just stand still and press your rotation. Dat skillcap.

I'm not really sure what you're talking about. You have to kite the focused lightning on Jin'rokh so it doesn't drop in the wrong place. Lots of movement on council to avoid sandtraps and the lightning rush and kill the loa spirits, you have to avoid spinning turtles and stalactites on tortos, you have to get out of the raid if you have cinders and avoid the poison spit for megaera, there's flying and jumping around platforms and running against downdraft in ji'kun, force of will, health siphon and the maze for durumu, anima ring and crush for dark animus, primordius is a kite-fest and the twins is all about keeping the fire twin on the dark comets, which means movement.

[pallyopness]

once again, a lot of the issue is players not WANTING to get better....i have seen a crapload of players who have the desire to raid and clear normal raids yet will not take advice or try to better themselves...it starts with the PLAYER itself....if a player refuses to learn what are you supposed to do? Its like a mage insisting on spirit gear because it has more int than their current gear and quitting a guild because they give the gear to a priest instead even though the mage won the roll. I believe even HeatherRae would tell you that players like that dont want help....and there is where I see the difference in player skills....its the effort to understand their class and or a game mechanic....the WILLINGNESS to learn and accept they need help to achieve goals others find easy

[TirielWoW]

I'm curious what the "optimal" difficulty in raids would be. When 100% of the players interested in raiding could complete normal? When this is the case, would raiding be to easy for people like Glorious Leader? Isn't that the same as LFR? In which time should the average raider be able to complete the content? 1 week? 10 weeks? When the next raid releases? How do we manage heroics? Should everybody that is able to clear normal also be able to clear heroics? What should the effort be? How long should it take to complete heroics?

Should there be brickwall bosses in HC? Like LK HC? Or optional bosses? Algalon? The average guild can kill everything except one boss?

I think that LFR should be left to do exactly what it claimed it was there to do - for those with neither the time nor inclination to raid, they can see the content that way.

I think Normals should be tuned so that a casual group of friends - regardless of class stacking or whatever else - can complete them. Leave them for casual, but organized groups.

I think Heroics should stay as they are. I think the difficulty is quite nice in heroics right now, even if some of the bosses were intensely annoying.

I think that 5 mans should, again, become viable endgame content, with gear that players can actually use as opposed to gear that is obsolete within hours (possibly sooner, if they bought honor gear).

I think that gear needs to stop being gated behind rep. I think reps should be optional, rather than being told, "The only way to get this shiny is to grind rep." Let it be like, simple things, like pets or that transmog hat you get from the Shado-Pan, or mounts. The Tillers is a good example of this.

I think that creating and gearing alts needs to go back to the Wrath model of ease.

I could go on. But I would like more of my casual friends to tell me, "Man, I had so much fun playing today." Right now, what I get from them is, "Yeah, we're still stuck on Horridon/Council. I don't know how to fix it. I'm so tired of dailies. I don't even want to think about gearing an alt. The idea of doing Golden Lotus again makes me cry."

[Glorious Leader]

once again, a lot of the issue is players not WANTING to get better....i have seen a crapload of players who have the desire to raid and clear normal raids yet will not take advice or try to better themselves...it starts with the PLAYER itself....if a player refuses to learn what are you supposed to do? Its like a mage insisting on spirit gear because it has more int than their current gear and quitting a guild because they give the gear to a priest instead even though the mage won the roll. I believe even HeatherRae would tell you that players like that dont want help....and there is where I see the difference in player skills....its the effort to understand their class and or a game mechanic....the WILLINGNESS to learn and accept they need help to achieve goals others find easy

and now of course the raiding player base as a whole is just morally bankrupt. They just don't want to get better damnit. They have some lacking will or desire that hardcore raiders seem to have in spades being of upright and good morale standing. I mean it's insulting. It's absolutely a massive insult every time this argument is made. It's even worse than just saying hey you guys are bads. It's saying not only are you bad your just lazy and to morally bankrupt to even get better.

[Hubbl3]

That doesn't explain or answer anything. "nerf it" was not the question. The question was HOW this should be achieved. What % of the players should see content in what time? 99%? Yeah, gratz on LFR everything.

Referring to your singature doesn't help, lol.

"they should be easier" yeah, no shit. How much easier they should be?!

[Deleted]

We have pugs running heroic modes. I don't see how "challenging" and "ToT" can be in the same sentence.

[Sharrel]

I don't think that ToT is too difficult. It's the best raid we've seen this expansion. somehow i sort of feel like people are just loosing interest in general. my guild for instance.. downed a new boss this past week. next day supposed to go back in, only half the raid team showed. people just don't seem to care any more.
I agree with the summer statement too.. with summer coming in.. a lot of people have more interesting things to do than play a game they have been playing all winter.

[TirielWoW]

once again, a lot of the issue is players not WANTING to get better....i have seen a crapload of players who have the desire to raid and clear normal raids yet will not take advice or try to better themselves...it starts with the PLAYER itself....if a player refuses to learn what are you supposed to do? Its like a mage insisting on spirit gear because it has more int than their current gear and quitting a guild because they give the gear to a priest instead even though the mage won the roll. I believe even HeatherRae would tell you that players like that dont want help....and there is where I see the difference in player skills....its the effort to understand their class and or a game mechanic....the WILLINGNESS to learn and accept they need help to achieve goals others find easy

The difference is, there are a lot of players who DO want to help, who DO want to do their best. But their best isn't the same as my best. Does that make them worthless, people who should just quit or be happy with LFR? I don't think so. I have enjoyed raiding with those people, even with their flaws. I'd like to be able to raid with them again, and enjoy it.

[pallyopness]

but would you like raids tuned down easier because their best doesnt match yours?

[Exystredofar]

once again, a lot of the issue is players not WANTING to get better....i have seen a crapload of players who have the desire to raid and clear normal raids yet will not take advice or try to better themselves...it starts with the PLAYER itself....if a player refuses to learn what are you supposed to do? Its like a mage insisting on spirit gear because it has more int than their current gear and quitting a guild because they give the gear to a priest instead even though the mage won the roll. I believe even HeatherRae would tell you that players like that dont want help....and there is where I see the difference in player skills....its the effort to understand their class and or a game mechanic....the WILLINGNESS to learn and accept they need help to achieve goals others find easy

I don't think it's that they don't want to "get better", it's that they're not given proper encouragement to. Experienced raiders tend to expect everyone to be on the same level of skill as them and get angry when someone messes something up. They call them out and embarrass them, and that discourages them from raiding. Everyone needs to start being more polite and helpful in raids instead of insulting people and just calling them bad, if you want to say something, offer encouragement or assistance.

[Deleted]

As a part of a 10 man guild I think its great as it is. The first few weeks were a bit silly - we only passed Horridon because our monk bugged and did the world number 1 dps (you can check on wow progress, its kinda absurd xD). Post nerfs I think its grand though. I'd find it hard to see this killing guilds, though we are casual (9 hours a week). Currently 8/10.

[Odina]

I'll flaunt my e-peen. Half the people in here bitching about how Normals are already "too easy" haven't seen half the content I have. But I was never of the opinion that simply because I have shiny gear and have seen more content than someone else, that that someone else was just stupid and "bad." Hardcore players were all - every last one of us - noobs at some point. Those noobs bashing their heads against the content in ToT right now? THAT WAS ME WHEN I STARTED.

Most people don't seem to remember (or maybe they just don't want to) when they were new, and struggling.

How did you get better? Did you call for the raids to get easyer and for evertyhgin to be toned down? Did you keep makign the same mistakes over and over?

I rememerb when I was new it was week 1 of launch and I was lost... wsa lost most of MC and BWL and only really started to get a grasp during aq40! Same with this toon I still think I'm rather avg on my war as I swapped to it as my main at the beginign of Firelands and previously had been Mage only for all those years!

Instead of tossing my hands up saying active mitigation and priority system was too hard I read up, fixed my UI to display the needed information and to this day keep going over my WOL and asking much much better wars to go over my logs to point out flaws I need to fix.

Making things easyer will have more people kill shit granted but then it's the same problem LFR is creating in people are not getting better everythign around them is just getting simpler...where will you recruit from if there is no push to be better to get further?

[Glorious Leader]

That doesn't explain or answer anything. "nerf it" was not the question. The question was HOW this should be achieved. What % of the players should see content in what time? 99%? Yeah, gratz on LFR everything.

Referring to your singature doesn't help, lol.

"they should be easier" yeah, no shit. How much easier they should be?!

Quite simple. THey should as easy as tbc bosses. Let's take Durumu as an excellent example of a boss that's overloaded. If Durumu were a tbc boss he would only have ONE of the following mechanics.

Life Drain
Maze
Spectrum Phase

So Durumu would be Life Drain and then the occasional aoe and maybe an add summoned or two. Maybe a frontal cleave or something that melee have to run out of. VERY SIMPLE. Very straightforward and not complicated hard to see mechanic on top of complicated hard to see mechanic. Theirs one boss. Another boss could be the Maze and lingering gaze combined. Or let's take megara. Megara is really three or 4 mechanics rolled into one

Rampage
Green Head explosion
Cinders
Blue Ice beam

Cinders itself would be pretty much be the biggest thing overcome in any tbc boss example. The hypothetical raid would have a boss that say had one mechanic like Cinders and then again some aoe, potentially an add to be spawned for either killing/kiting/ or cc and then a generous enrage timer.

Current bosses not only punish weaker players and don't give them any opportunities to get better they also serve to punish NEW RAIDERS who don't have a wealth of raiding experience to draw back on. In addition to this the game does NOTHING to teach newer or weaker raiders in areas where they've traditionally had issues with. Furthermore with the bloat of abilities and cooldowns to manage in this game it is no wonder that the frequent complaint is that the bosses are in fact to god damn busy. They are.

[Hubbl3]

Quite simple. THey should as easy as tbc bosses. Let's take Durumu as an excellent example of a boss that's overloaded. If Durumu were a tbc boss he would only have ONE of the following mechanics.

Life Drain
Maze
Spectrum Phase

So Durumu would be Life Drain and then the occasional aoe and maybe an add summoned or two. Theirs one boss. Another boss could be the Maze and lingering gaze combined. Or let's take megara. Megara is really three or 4 mechanics rolled into one

Rampage
Green Head explosion
Cinders
Blue Ice beam

Cinders itself would be pretty much be the biggest thing overcome in any tbc boss example. The hypothetical raid would have a boss that say had one mechanic like Cinders and then again some aoe, potentially an add to be spawned for either killing/kiting/ or cc and then a generous enrage timer.

Why BC? Was the average joe able to complete the content? I highly question that. But I'm sure you have prove to backup your claims. Oh, and there are bosses in TBC that are full of mechanics. Not every boss in BC was Brutallus.

[Odina]

My signature is what should be done with raiding. Fundamentally the developers have to stop thinking about the game from a top down perspective. It is no longer important to serve and cater to the vanity of the a tiny minority of heroic raiders. It costs them dearly whenever they do. It is more important about what the bottom 99% can do then the top 1%. That should be there concern.

The devs said it best : " If we don't care about small minorities, then we should stop supporting trolls and dwarves."

[Boathouse]

The bosses damage is fine. Their mechanics are fine. The order is bosses is fine. The problem is that the fights last far too long and things have way too much health. There is zero reason for fights to be as long as they are unless they are a tier/end boss.