RPPM Good or Bad?

[ymirsson]

You have your opinion i have mine,hmm we should create a website where people can come and do what we just expressed!We can call it a ...Forum!
Anywayyyyys,unscripted content vs. scripted and some people twist numbers and reach as far as they can to create some logic that something that you know everything that is going to happen is harder than something that has no script and you have to adjust and react to multiple things going on (remember all these things going on are not scripted) and use your abilities/skill versus an enemy that actually fights back with the same objective you have.
Whats the AI on wow bosses? hmm yea thought so.

p.s. Like i said before this just(MY) opinion so some of you can continue to rage and insult if it makes you fell better and correct about something that has no real answer..Happy gaming!

Most people play way worse then any script for any boss you could come up with. Just because its not AI doesn't mean it's not stupid.

[Manabomb]

Blizzard's reasoning for keeping RPPM around and using in the first place are good reasons, in theory. On paper. In simulations.

From a player point of view it is definitely infuriating to watch the only time I proc my trinket is at the very end of p1 Lei shen. RPPM isn't horrible, but at the same time it was much nicer from a dps perspective to be able to line up my ability cooldowns with that huge trinket/4set/procthing. From a healer perspective, I actually like RPPM on things like Last Gasp, but at the same time from a dps perspective I hate soul-charm proccing and then getting to 2 seconds when I need to reapply SnD.

The haste scaling too is a bit problematic when haste suddenly because even more valuable, something I thought they were trying to push away from. Sorta brings you to the topic of they didn't want wotlk stat% levels (ie, 60% crit, 30% haste fire mages, ect), but they saw cataclysms stat horribleness and took it to the opposite extreme, but also making the offstats, specifically haste, infinitely more valuable. RPPM scaling with haste was a terrible decision imo, but without it RPPM does not have a leg to stand on. Honestly it would be better if it was removed and we return to ICD trinkets until we can figure out a better, long term solution to both secondary stat inflation and haste gearing. Maybe then we will see an iteration of RPPM that will be acceptable.

[Warstar]

Blizzard's reasoning for keeping RPPM around and using in the first place are good reasons, in theory. On paper. In simulations.

From a player point of view it is definitely infuriating to watch the only time I proc my trinket is at the very end of p1 Lei shen. RPPM isn't horrible, but at the same time it was much nicer from a dps perspective to be able to line up my ability cooldowns with that huge trinket/4set/procthing. From a healer perspective, I actually like RPPM on things like Last Gasp, but at the same time from a dps perspective I hate soul-charm proccing and then getting to 2 seconds when I need to reapply SnD.

The haste scaling too is a bit problematic when haste suddenly because even more valuable, something I thought they were trying to push away from. Sorta brings you to the topic of they didn't want wotlk stat% levels (ie, 60% crit, 30% haste fire mages, ect), but they saw cataclysms stat horribleness and took it to the opposite extreme, but also making the offstats, specifically haste, infinitely more valuable. RPPM scaling with haste was a terrible decision imo, but without it RPPM does not have a leg to stand on. Honestly it would be better if it was removed and we return to ICD trinkets until we can figure out a better, long term solution to both secondary stat inflation and haste gearing. Maybe then we will see an iteration of RPPM that will be acceptable.

RPPM on like a spirit proc trinket or something doesn't really matter since you're rarely at 100% mana so whenever a trinket like that procs it's awesome and you get a lot of use out of it. On the other hand something that increased your haste or int or crit or whatever doesn't really get much use as a healer since healing is so different than dps in that in a low damage output time a trinket proc is almost worthless while a dps wants to do as much dps as possible 100% of the time (unless you're holding off to not push a phase or something) so I'd say that RPPM for healers is even worse. Same thing as a tank. Both healers as well as tanks really need the control from on use trinkets because the times when they need them they really really need them (life or death) and other times they can be so worthless. Think of a tank getting a dodge proc on a trinket when he's not actually tanking the boss and the other tank had just taunted.

[Deleted]

You have your opinion i have mine,hmm we should create a website where people can come and do what we just expressed!We can call it a ...Forum!
Anywayyyyys,unscripted content vs. scripted and some people twist numbers and reach as far as they can to create some logic that something that you know everything that is going to happen is harder than something that has no script and you have to adjust and react to multiple things going on (remember all these things going on are not scripted) and use your abilities/skill versus an enemy that actually fights back with the same objective you have.
Whats the AI on wow bosses? hmm yea thought so.

p.s. Like i said before this just(MY) opinion so some of you can continue to rage and insult if it makes you fell better and correct about something that has no real answer..Happy gaming!

I haven't seen any insults.

Two things though:
- Patterns exist in PvP. Actually, everything or almost is predictable once you've seen enough of it.
- I don't play PvE to play against scripted content, I enjoy it because I compete against other players and guilds through scripted content.

[nextormento]

My take is that all this RPPM thing is part of a much bigger plan that we're yet to see.

Being able to think in advance and plan ahead has been big on the game, historically. And so has the ability to hastily react. They need to strike a balance on those two aspects and I think they're working towards making it possible.

As far as rogues are concerned, we've always figured that using our cooldowns more often generally leads to more throughput. So we use cooldowns as soon as they're up (or math out how many we can fit and use them appropriately). Before Restless Blades, this wasn't so clear cut with KsP and BG for combat during cata. In fact it was thought for a while that waiting for BG to stack up was better than using KsP on cooldown. We eventually discovered it was a bug in Shadowcraft, unfortunately. However, it was nice to have a mechanic that rewarded micromanagement and reactive play.

I can easily imagine they could develop mechanics that play along with it. Cooldowns that can safely be delayed to align with a proc. Even to the extent that an extra use of the cooldowns won't match clever stacking with procs. If they do so, we'll probably have to develop addons to figure in real-time the likeliness of each trinket proccing, so that's a drawback. But I do believe a balance can be met.

As for the current state of them, well, I hate them as much as the next guy. They're solving to some extent the excessive reliance on having everything proc at the start, and I'm happy with that. But they're in a state in which you can't feel rewarded when they proc: if they do on an appropriate moment you think 'oh, well, whatever'; if they proc on intermissions you think 'oh, well, meh'. No win situation. Top that with how much of a nightmare it is to model and deeply understand what they do and you're in for a sucky ride.

I'm also a bit weirded out about the opt-out they're giving us: SoO will have trinkets with the older mechanics (on use, or icd). It's good that they do: we've always had the option to go for more control (on use) in detriment of better output (icd). RPPM is just another step on that reliance/strength vector: they necessarily are stronger. But we've already been in that path: our tools clearly show how much better they are, so we generally default to the stronger option. I don't think many people will choose the more control-inclined ones.

The problem now, as many are pointing out, is that the strongest ones (rppm) don't reward skillful play, thusly diminishing their wow-factor. I suspect they will work on that for next xpack (as I discussed above). Overall I'm very willing to wait and see: this is only an early implementation of where they want to game to be heading.

[Naxere]

I'd much prefer more on-use trinkets.

[mongoose6]

I'm also a bit weirded out about the opt-out they're giving us: SoO will have trinkets with the older mechanics (on use, or icd). It's good that they do: we've always had the option to go for more control (on use) in detriment of better output (icd). RPPM is just another step on that reliance/strength vector: they necessarily are stronger. But we've already been in that path: our tools clearly show how much better they are, so we generally default to the stronger option. I don't think many people will choose the more control-inclined ones.

We are given an opt out for trinkets, but what option to we have for enchants, meta procs, and cloak procs? We are forced into a system that relies on a secondary stat. Even with normalizing proc chances for certain classes/specs, there are still going to be imbalances. It’s not really fair that I can stack a secondary stat that is high on my stat priority to begin with in order to affect the proc chance of my trinkets, meta gem, and enchants while a Fury warrior is just kinda left behind. If they current system remains in place as it is, then there will always be imbalances that are exacerbated by higher item levels between classes that use haste well and those that do not.

[Deleted]

You have your opinion i have mine,hmm we should create a website where people can come and do what we just expressed!We can call it a ...Forum!
Anywayyyyys,unscripted content vs. scripted and some people twist numbers and reach as far as they can to create some logic that something that you know everything that is going to happen is harder than something that has no script and you have to adjust and react to multiple things going on (remember all these things going on are not scripted) and use your abilities/skill versus an enemy that actually fights back with the same objective you have.
Whats the AI on wow bosses? hmm yea thought so.

p.s. Like i said before this just(MY) opinion so some of you can continue to rage and insult if it makes you fell better and correct about something that has no real answer..Happy gaming!

The discussion of the merits (or lack of) of RPPM is due to their artificial layering of random chance events in a scripted encounter, and less due to the vast majority who dislike RPPM in it's current form to be somehow bereft of the (supposed) skills of the average PvPer of anticipating and reacting to the (not)completely random actions of their opponent.
Consider that the two main reasons Blizzard have cited for RPPM are to prevent the front loaded damage at the start of an encounter due to on-use and ICD trinkets and that Blizzard considers random events great fun for the player when the occur at the right moment. Now the first objection can be dealt in a multitude of ways, not least of just simply adding more health to the boss to mitigate that front loaded damage on pull, and the second quite clearly isn't the case with even those players who don't mind RPPM too much seeing the procs which happen at right moment as more of a relief than something "fun" or "cool".
Skill-wise? What's the difference? Only certain specs can sit on damage to try and take advantage of a proc. Then we have the scripted nature of the encounter itself involving phase transitions, movement phases, high damage phases, etc; my Spriest get's a lightweave proc, Jade spirit one, a double RPPM one on top of three orbs and a Divine Insight proc (note how many random elements are there) where in theory I could with taking optimal advantage of my procs and a perfectly executed rotation significantly improve my damage for twelve or so seconds but wait Lei Shen has just hit transition and I have just let those procs fall off- what "skill" am I missing here where I could make use of those procs?
Then we have the PvP angle ( I'm not even getting into how that is far from random and can be more "scripted" than the average raid boss encounter). RPPM is currently Blizzard's baby. It's not going anywhere soon. But because it's so unpopular they are introducing alternatives and so RPPM trinkets will be made powerful in order to made more attractive. If you don't think these more powerful trinkets won't find their way into PVP then keep on dreaming until you start melting under some stupidly OP RPPM proc. Good luck fighting against that.
Now, you may just like RPPM or not bother with it, but the debate has nothing to with skill than about an unneeded level of frustration being sold to us as "more fun" and PvP will be feeling the effects more and more of this "more fun" random chance BS .

[Maelstrom51]

We are forced into a system that relies on a secondary stat.

In 5.4 stat procs will not be scaling with haste. Meaning that once 5.4 comes, all RPPM procs besides the cloak will be scaling with all of our secondary stats.

[mongoose6]

In 5.4 stat procs will not be scaling with haste. Meaning that once 5.4 comes, all RPPM procs besides the cloak will be scaling with all of our secondary stats.

I havn't seen this change. You, good sir, have just made my day!

[fierydemise]

In 5.4 stat procs will not be scaling with haste. Meaning that once 5.4 comes, all RPPM procs besides the cloak will be scaling with all of our secondary stats.

Your phrasing is a bit misleading I think. The cloak (and legendary metagem) will scale proc chance with haste. Other (stat) procs will not scale proc chance with haste. Technically yes they scale with all stats but that is true of all stat procs whether they be ICD, RPPM or on-use.

[Warstar]

They're solving to some extent the excessive reliance on having everything proc at the start, and I'm happy with that.

I don't think they solved anything. In fact they nerfed the shit out of it and made it even more random.

On live you sit and twiddle your thumbs for a bit before a pull so every ones stuff is up and gets the guaranteed proc on the pull but the change they made is so that just won't happen so they didn't "fix" anything just made it so that it's not a guaranteed proc on the pull anymore.

If anything they made the randomness even more random because as always there's going to be some people who get their procs right off the the bat on the pull when they have all their CDs up and running and they're going to sky rocket where as someone else who has to wait 30 seconds for theirs to get the proc. Guilds will still on fights that need it pop heroism at the start and people will still pop their CDs at the start rather than delaying them to get maximum use of CDs in the fight as well as use of heroism. It's not really possible to line up heroism at the start anymore due to the fact that everyone's trinkets are going to be procing at different times now.

I think that their "fix" is down right stupid.

I'm going to say that the opener is by far the biggest factor in your end DPS base on experience. Currently watching recount or whatever people pull the boss and everyone shoots up astronomically and then as the fight progresses the dps teeters off. A bad pull can absolutely ruin that for you. Everybody has had it happen to them before: the boss gets turned for some reason cause the tank derped and so your shadow focus opener get's parried, your SnD gets the unlucky roll and doesn't return energy so now you're completely energy starved and rupture isn't even up yet, your next two mutilates don't crit or proc dispatch, your trinkets/pre-pop are basically worn off by the time you get rolling and get your CDs up, so now you're in a non-buffed CD where and none of your mutilates are proccing or critting so you hardly get any bonus envenom from the mass amount of CP that you usually generate during this time. Your end dps and place on the charts is totally ruined.

With the new change people are going to sometimes get an awesome opener and sometimes not. It's going to be a total toss up on the DPS charts and make some people be amazing one fight and then crap the next. A lot of "skill" or whatever you want to call it is going to be totally thrown out the window and luck is going to be even more of a factor than ever.

Now, the problem with the opt out way of them adding more non-RPPM trinkets is that when it comes down to it the RPPM trinkets are going to be "Better" overall. People with 2 RPPM trinkets will have the opportunity to parse higher than any other way but it will be a lot more random so watching the top parses is still going to be pretty bunk and not an accurate representation.

[Baracuda]

Nothing's better for heroic progression than inconsistent dps and having to wait a fair amount of time for trinkets between pulls.

Isn't that being fixed next patch?

[Verain]

Now, the problem with the opt out way of them adding more non-RPPM trinkets is that when it comes down to it the RPPM trinkets are going to be "Better" overall. People with 2 RPPM trinkets will have the opportunity to parse higher than any other way but it will be a lot more random so watching the top parses is still going to be pretty bunk and not an accurate representation.

I think this part is interesting. Some people have a logical fallacy where they look at outliers and decide that's the best option. For instance, in several tiers, your best bet to win a fight quickly has been whatever is overtuned or just good damage, but the top parses will be something very RNG, such as fire mages or whatever. You might look at this and come to the conclusion that fire is your best bet for damage. Now, some tiers, that has actually been the case, but others it has NOT. But the top parses consistently select lottery winners. That's fine, and your best bet to win the lottery is to buy lottery tickets.... but if you were trying to do the most damage on the fight more than just once, then that's often not the case.

I think we will see them tune RPPM trinkets higher than the alternatives, and that it will accurately show up this way in shadowcraft, AND you'll see those guys dominate on WoL, and the natural conclusion is that they will be more damage. Then you'll go to the fight and end up dealing with attempts with inconsistent damage.

Still, as long as they have RPPM, they'll have to run it like that.

[mongoose6]

•Trinket, enchant, set bonus, and legendary meta-gem effects whose triggered effect benefits from haste no longer also have their chance to trigger the benefit from haste. Activation chances and internal cooldowns for those effects and other trinket effects have been adjusted to compensate and will now be displayed on their tooltip.

This is all I could find in the patch notes that pertains to RPPM. It confused me. So the only procs that will take haste into the equation when deciding the proc rate are simple flat damage procs? I.E. haste will still effect the meta proc chance because the proc itself doesn't benifit from haste. RSC's proc chance would no longer benefit from haste because you can benefit from haste during the proc. Do I have that right?

[Fluorescent0]

•Trinket, enchant, set bonus, and legendary meta-gem effects whose triggered effect benefits from haste no longer also have their chance to trigger the benefit from haste. Activation chances and internal cooldowns for those effects and other trinket effects have been adjusted to compensate and will now be displayed on their tooltip.

This is all I could find in the patch notes that pertains to RPPM. It confused me. So the only procs that will take haste into the equation when deciding the proc rate are simple flat damage procs? I.E. haste will still effect the meta proc chance because the proc itself doesn't benifit from haste. RSC's proc chance would no longer benefit from haste because you can benefit from haste during the proc. Do I have that right?

Yeah you have that right. Damage procs will have their procrate increased by haste, stat procs won't.

[Maelstrom51]

Your phrasing is a bit misleading I think. The cloak (and legendary metagem) will scale proc chance with haste. Other (stat) procs will not scale proc chance with haste. Technically yes they scale with all stats but that is true of all stat procs whether they be ICD, RPPM or on-use.

Opps. I meant stat procs will scale with stats more equally than previously.

[Kulestu]

•Trinket, enchant, set bonus, and legendary meta-gem effects whose triggered effect benefits from haste no longer also have their chance to trigger the benefit from haste. Activation chances and internal cooldowns for those effects and other trinket effects have been adjusted to compensate and will now be displayed on their tooltip.

This is all I could find in the patch notes that pertains to RPPM. It confused me. So the only procs that will take haste into the equation when deciding the proc rate are simple flat damage procs? I.E. haste will still effect the meta proc chance because the proc itself doesn't benifit from haste. RSC's proc chance would no longer benefit from haste because you can benefit from haste during the proc. Do I have that right?

Yup. There were some theories briefly that the multi-strike and cleave trinkets might not get hit by the RPPM nerf, but they put the agility thing on them, which is obnoxious.

[Coldkil]

Yup. There were some theories briefly that the multi-strike and cleave trinkets might not get hit by the RPPM nerf, but they put the agility thing on them, which is obnoxious.

The complete story is that there are 2 things being planned:

- the nerf, which is basically aimed to avoid the "so much damage burst at pull" and will make the first proc to happen not before 120 seconds in the fight (or was it 90? i recall these two numbers but don't remeber which one came before)

- the fix, which is aimed to solve the double stat scaling some RPPM trinkets have; all of them now scale with haste, but some also scale with another secondary stat or double-dip into haste for a greater dps increase. These ones will have their proc chance scaling on haste removed, so they will make use of only one stat and don't get double bonuses (basically they become very similar to old PPM ones).

[pokeadott]

RPPM model - "Spend resource consuming dmg spells during trinket proc, hope that dps CD's are also available"

ICD model - "Spend resource consuming dmg spells during trinket proc, time dps CD's to be available during expected proc"

On-Use model - "Time with dps CD's, spend resource consuming dmg spells during trinket proc"

...

They are all the same freakin' thing save for the annoyance factor. ICD/On-Use models have you monitoring a trinket cooldown to maximize output. RPPM has you monitoring a trinket proc and hoping it lines up with your CD's/Resoruces/Boss mechanics to max output.

RPPM removes a small amount of skill and adds in a massive amount of RNG. Seeing a trinket proc in the middle of a fight isn't fun, it's expected. Seeing a trinket proc just after your dps CD expires or as a boss transitions and becomes unattackable is frustrating.

How is RPPM fun for anyone? It opens the doorway for frustration with the only benefit is seeing 'the stars align' for crazy burst. The thing is, I barely even notice the crazy burst except on the pull, which is fun, and which they are trying to kill. If my trinket happens to proc during a CD mid-fight I adjust my rotation accordingly but I don't get giddy and stare at numbers. We're too busy executing mechanics. The only time RPPM is noticeable when it doesn't proc when we want it to (no on-pull proc, no 'lei ph1' proc, etc.).

That's not fun. That's just frustrating.