Did casuals ruin WoW and if so how?

[Deleted]

Because every bluepost tells the truth? I don't get it why it's so hard to understand, that blizzard made changes that backfired. Give a child a lollypop and then take it back. Same reaction. Blizzard had conditioned the players for the new concept of "everything low and easy accessibly until hardmodes", not vice versa. That doesn't mean that this is brilliant and mmorpgs can only work this way.

You might have a point, but the fact is that the only reason casual players come into contact with endgame content at all is because hardcores whingers got the levelling time nerfed to hell and back.

[McTurbo]

I have to agree. blizzard gave wrath a casual make over.. while leaving the hardcore modes for the elites.. this gave everyone a taste of the game.. biggest subscriber base ever.. then they took it away at the start of cataclysm. changes to spec's, heroic dungeons, raids were tougher and required more teamwork (aka almost all bosses had multiple stages and were close to sindragosa/lichking normal difficulty.) this eliminated a lot of normal guilds they just couldn't down anything for the longest time. which leads to breakup of guilds. or people stop showing up.. once the friends list empty then the guild empties its not much longer before you just unsubscribe as you got no one you knew to play with. not to mention the massive change to healing that threw a lot of healers a curve.

it was to much change to soon.. everything we see now is from that one change.. and blizzard still hasn't found a way to stop it from happening because at a fundamental level they don't understand why people don't want harder content. (sorry.. not so much as don't want harder content.. but the game does not provide a way to get past it for guilds that get stuck. the death buff you get in LFR would have been perfect to solving that issue back in the day)

[Crashdummy]

I would say the turning point on wow quality was obviously directing the game to casuals, and alot of consequences from that, and that was exactly (in my opinion) during the launch of wotlk expansion.

You cant be more wrong.

When Vanilla launched, the MMOs in the market were things like EQ and UO. Vanilla was the most CASUAL FRIENDLY MMO in the market by a LOOOOOOONG shot.

Then TBC launched:
- 40 mans turned into 10/25
- EPICS dropped in 5 MAN DUNGEONS
- Crafting was a LOT easier (no enchanter trainer in a dungeon, no alchemy table in a dungeon, no BS forge in a dungeon, etc) and crafting yielded better stuff
- Flying was introduced
- 5 man Dungeons dropping badges that let you buy raid quality gear.

and many more stuff

I still remember all the elitists crying when TBC launched because the game was made for casuals...

Then WotLK came, which i hope i dont have to explain why it was very casual friendly and was thew last succesful expansion released.

And then they chifted their design philosophy to cater to elitists. They cater dungeons to elitists in Cataclysm and provided ZERO content for casuals, and Cataclysm ended up being the worst expansion ever. The two Quarters where they lost lesss subscribers were when they nerfed Firelands (they lost only 100k subs) and when DS was launch (0 subs losses), which were two casual friendly changes.

Then they launched MoP, they made dugneons easier but they decided to do very, VERY few of them. Then they made huge daily grinds (catered to hardcores) and VERY HARD normal raids (obviously also catered to hardcores) and we now have the second failure in WoW's history.

They think that giving casuals the leftovers of elitists they can change anything, but they wont. Flex is nothing more than other people's leftovers.

They need to go back to Wrath and make it more casual friendly oriented without neglecting hardcores. LOTS of easy dungeons, easy Normal raids. Then they need to improve Wrath by making harder HEROIC RAIDs and using LFR.

They wont, because Blizzard is making a lot of bad decisions lately.

Elitists and Blizzard catering to them destroyed the game.

[Zzzonked]

The pedestal Elitists put them on, where they are fooled into believing that they where the ones who made wow, is what "ruined" wow. But seriously, nothing has "ruined" WoW, unless YOU deem it that way, the voice you hear most is that of the disgruntled, because the people having fun are playing the game, and contributing to the community.

Elitists are constantly being stripped from their bragging rights because what took them so much time to get, is now attainable in a much easier fashion, and it hurts their butt because they worked so hard for it and now people don't care.

As a game grows, you are constantly trying to target more and more audiences, so you need to appeal to them, by involving them, and not restricting the experience to one arrogant voice in the crowd.

[Osmeric]

it was to much change to soon.. everything we see now is from that one change.. and blizzard still hasn't found a way to stop it from happening because at a fundamental level they don't understand why people don't want harder content.

They broke the game with Cataclysm, and haven't figured out how to unbreak it. I'm not sure it's even possible to fix it now.

[McTurbo]

You cant be more wrong.

When Vanilla launched, the MMOs in the market were things like EQ and UO. Vanilla was the most CASUAL FRIENDLY MMO in the market by a LOOOOOOONG shot.

Then TBC launched:
- 40 mans turned into 10/25
- EPICS dropped in 5 MAN DUNGEONS
- Crafting was a LOT easier (no enchanter trainer in a dungeon, no alchemy table in a dungeon, no BS forge in a dungeon, etc) and crafting yielded better stuff
- Flying was introduced
- 5 man Dungeons dropping badges that let you buy raid quality gear.

and many more stuff

I still remember all the elitists crying when TBC launched because the game was made for casuals...

Then WotLK came, which i hope i dont have to explain why it was very casual friendly and was thew last succesful expansion released.

And then they chifted their design philosophy to cater to elitists. They cater dungeons to elitists in Cataclysm and provided ZERO content for casuals, and Cataclysm ended up being the worst expansion ever. The two Quarters where they lost lesss subscribers were when they nerfed Firelands (they lost only 100k subs) and when DS was launch (0 subs losses), which were two casual friendly changes.

Then they launched MoP, they made dugneons easier but they decided to do very, VERY few of them. Then they made huge daily grinds (catered to hardcores) and VERY HARD normal raids (obviously also catered to hardcores) and we now have the second failure in WoW's history.

They think that giving casuals the leftovers of elitists they can change anything, but they wont. Flex is nothing more than other people's leftovers.

They need to go back to Wrath and make it more casual friendly oriented without neglecting hardcores. LOTS of easy dungeons, easy Normal raids. Then they need to improve Wrath by making harder HEROIC RAIDs and using LFR.

They wont, because Blizzard is making a lot of bad decisions lately.

I can agree with this. (and yes we know that anyone can have a different experience than posted above)

[vesseblah]

Because every bluepost tells the truth?

They might and often do omit things, but never actually lie.

And as I said, everybody with a working brain also will figure out these things without relying solely on what Blizzard says.

Blizzard had conditioned the players for the new concept of "everything low and easy accessibly until hardmodes", not vice versa. That doesn't mean that this is brilliant and mmorpgs can only work this way.

Accessibility and casual friendliness compared to their main competition is what worked in first expansions. Going more hardcore way in Cataclysm is what broke the game. It's not the only way to make MMOs for sure, Eve shows you exactly what happens when you make hardcore game.

[moremana]

3 things here that do not describe wow.

Social
Rewarding
Captivating

See what I did there. Those 3 things make a successful game. Wow use to have that.

So the answer is no, casuals aren't killing wow, Blizzard is.

[McTurbo]

They broke the game with Cataclysm, and haven't figured out how to unbreak it. I'm not sure it's even possible to fix it now.

its quite possible to fix. you want a lot of players back?

step 1 go back to the wrath model. (personally I didn't think mop dungeon/heroics were bad, but raids were way to hard for newbie/casual raiders)
step 2 give hardcore players the hardcore bosses that they can fight and obtain .. ulduar being the prime example (or HC rag)
step 3 open up the game for FREE TO PLAY for past expansions (Aka WoW to Cataclysm = F2P ... Pandaria = subscription) you will see lots of new players. stop trying to make money off the old expansions and lets get some fresh blood in here. your still the best MMO on the planet.. but you cutting your own throat with the entry climb.
step 4. provide a tighter control and punishment for the caustic members who troll trade chats and the forums.. until you slap em down hard enough to get the message you will never be in control of your game as such they will continue to drive people away.
step 5 instead of constantly thinking of challenging.. think fun. (challenge has its place.. but so does fun and that's been missing for a while.)
step 6 profit!!!

[SodiumChloride]

"Casuals" ruined WoW by playing it, not liking it, and wanting it changed to their desires rather than finding a new game.

LOL. WoW was always the "causal" game. It was EQ lite. The hardcore used to turn their noses up at WoW. But when the other hardcore MMOs slowly went into decline, these hardcores hopped into WoW. It's been downhill ever since.

It will be incredibly ironic if Blizzard goes down the same road as it's predecessors while an ultra casual fresh new face MMO starts gaining momentum.

[Vintersol]

Going more hardcore way in Cataclysm is what broke the game.

No. If cataclysm were released before WotLK, people would have been fine with the given difficulty in 5 mans. You can't expect acceptance for a higher difficulty, if this content was pure faceroll in the previous expansion. Anyways, the main problem of cataclysm wasn't the difficulty, the whole expansion was.

[Osmeric]

No. If cataclysm were released before WotLK, people would have been fine with the given difficulty in 5 mans.

What happened with me is I got to the end of BC and thought "wait, most of that raid content was a bait-and-switch that I was never going to see". And I was prepared, going into Wrath, to give it a try, but bail if it was BC 2.0.

Of course it wasn't, so I was subscribed through 96% of Wrath. But come Cataclysm, those misgivings all came flooding back, and were amply confirmed. The experience in BC primed me to walk out on Cataclysm, and I did.

So, no, at least in my case, replacing Wrath with something like Cataclysm would not have prevented a loss of a sub. Wrath didn't corrupt my connection to the game; BC did that fine by itself.

[Glorious Leader]

No. If cataclysm were released before WotLK, people would have been fine with the given difficulty in 5 mans. You can't expect acceptance for a higher difficulty, if this content was pure faceroll in the previous expansion. Anyways, the main problem of cataclysm wasn't the difficulty, the whole expansion was.

As the developers have noted else where complicated anything in the age of looking for dungeon doesn't work. They also noted somewhere that even TBC heroics didn't have that high participation rates (given most people still weren't hitting 90). It's unfounded in the extreme to say it "would have been fine" because no it wouldn't have. It was a slaughter in cataclysm and would have been in wrath to. The developers simple moved to appease their audience in wotlk. Just not YOU. Once again you have to recognize the principle that OTHER PEOPLE play this game...

[Vintersol]

As the developers have noted else where complicated anything in the age of looking for dungeon doesn't work. They also noted somewhere that even TBC heroics didn't have that high participation rates (given most people still weren't hitting 90).

The game was growing and hat many more subscribers than any other mmorpg. (fact)

It's unfounded in the extreme to say it "would have been fine" because no it wouldn't have. It was a slaughter in cataclysm and would have been in wrath to.

You can't know that. We already know that TBC was growing, even with that lesser accessibility and harder 5 Mans. Today and way before, the game is still losing subs even with ultra baddie modes, so something is going wrong here.

Once again you have to recognize the principle that OTHER PEOPLE play this game...

Look at yourself. You are even unable to recognize that.

[Glorious Leader]

The game was growing and hat many more subscribers than any other mmorpg. (fact)



You can't know that. We already know that TBC was growing, even with that lesser accessibility and harder 5 Mans. Today and way before, the game is still losing subs even with ultra baddie modes, so something is going wrong here.



Look at yourself. You are even unable to recognize that.

Their was severe and marked reaction to harder heroics in cataclysm (fact)

I can't know it wouldn't have been terrible to have harder heroics in wotlk (especially when the developers have said it was naive of them to think complicated and hard anything works out in the age of lfd) but you sure as shit just know that it would have been hunky dory to keep making heroics painful and people would have been A OKAY pahddnuhhh. I mean the utter irony..

I recognize the principle very well I think. It's just that their are obvious concessions that have to be made when dealing with majorities and minorities. The developers have saw fit to cater to extreme minorities within the game (vis a vi hardcore or raiders) and telling everybody else to go screw themselves and accept ghetto content. That's the problem with the game. In the same fashion they told people who were pissed off about hard heroics go fuck yourself (wow dungeons are hard)because theirs a minority of us who actually enjoys beating our heads against this rubbish. Not only do you have to recognize that OTHER PEOPLE play this game you also have to recognize that sometimes their interests will supersede yours, especially in cases where they represent a sizable portion of the player base paying the bills so to speak. Once you recognize this you realize that Blizzard really is your ultimate friend. They kept raiding (which has always had historically low participation rates and eats their budgets and manpower and time) instead of dungeons (which had better rates but only got better rates in wotlk when they were piss easy and lfd queable but also have the unfortunate side effect of being as hard to create as raids). RAIDERS WIN AGAIN. If only I lived in Oakland...

I should note that what I did their was make a correlative judgement without having ALL the facts and figures at hand. Which is exactly what you did except I happen to be right and do have SOME knowledge on the topic as I frequent this discussion perhaps a bit to much. Here I'll do what you did again but in a more satirical and comical sense:

Whenever I lost a tooth as a kid I got a dollar under my pillow (fact)

The inference I made as a small child of course was that a tooth fairy had come and magically given me a dollar. The inference your making about subscription growth and "hard heroics" is equally as absurd. They really ought to teach critical thinking in schools. I mean you accused many of us of being servile and taking the devs words at complete face value but then you go and take that "fact" at face value without any consideration or thought. It's delicious but sadly not that uncommon fodder for these forums.

[Batix]

It's hardly ruined...

Multi-million subscribers...

Blizzard still making a killing. Consistently.

[McTurbo]

It's hardly ruined...

Multi-million subscribers...

Blizzard still making a killing. Consistently.

well using that arguement the titanic was perfectly fine for several hours after hitting that pesky iceberg.. nothing to see here folks .. were still floating.. dinner is in the lower.. erm.. upper dining hall!

[wych]

well using that arguement the titanic was perfectly fine for several hours after hitting that pesky iceberg.. nothing to see here folks .. were still floating.. dinner is in the lower.. erm.. upper dining hall!

I'd say a more apt comparison is being a 55 year old man, going to your Doctor and him telling you you're not as fit as you once were but you're doing alright for your age.

Inevitably you will die like we all do, but right now you're doing fine.

[McTurbo]

I think we can all agree that the game is suffering. each of us desire content for the type of content we are interested in. whats at odds is blizzards response or slow response time. they have consistantly refused to communicate effectively and are behind the ball on most major problems. we are left in the dark not knowing what direction the game will take until the next patch.

I think what we can agree on is that the amount of content that we have recieved seems to be completely out of place to the money we have given blizzard. other games can make monthly or bi monthly updates but the biggest mmo on the planet cant manage much more than once every six months or so.. and then its in bits and pieces with the excuse they dont have time. frankly.. im glad titan is scrapped because im not sure i would have choosen to play it with the way blizzard is currently being operated.

You only need to look at the disaster that was d3 and the state of wow to tell that something is wrong at the Blizzard HQ. they are almost at complete odds with the majority of thier playerbase.

[Glorious Leader]

I'd say a more apt comparison is being a 55 year old man, going to your Doctor and him telling you you're not as fit as you once were but you're doing alright for your age.

Inevitably you will die like we all do, but right now you're doing fine.

Software is not old people. While the devs are apparently convinced the game can no longer undergo a revolution this is not some fact of software development. It's simple a matter of how much time and money and resources they want to put into it. Conceivably if they wished they could make world of warcraft the greatest fishing emulator ever.

While I agree the drop in subscription is not an attribute of any silly regressive notions about what the game "was" I do not subscribe to the belief that it's simple game over and the devs can do little. Ultimately they are indeed responsible. Saying the game is old is a massive cop out and frankly it's the developers who make it feel old. They decide to focus on it's oldest elements and regress the game painfully in so many ways.