6.0 Mage Speculation & Paranoia

[voltaa]

OMG they have to change the lvl 90 talents. That tier is just stupid. I don't believe there is a living actively playing Mage that likes them.

I like them, as do many others. Those who are unhappy are just always the loudest, I'm not going to go on the forums to capslock rave about how content I am

[mrgreenthump]

I like them, as do many others. Those who are unhappy are just always the loudest, I'm not going to go on the forums to capslock rave about how content I am

Real question is would you stop playing if Blizzard changed/removed them.. As quite a few people did quit/reroll, because of the talents being so annoying for them.

Then again most of those who stopped playing probably won't come back, so there's that.

[SodiumChloride]

I like them, as do many others. Those who are unhappy are just always the loudest, I'm not going to go on the forums to capslock rave about how content I am

This is why it's stupid,
http://youtu.be/ZhupjgxMYUs?t=14m29s

It's like not being to hold a touch light and a gun at the same time in Doom 3. It's just a stupid pointless mechanic.

[Deleted]

I like them, as do many others. Those who are unhappy are just always the loudest, I'm not going to go on the forums to capslock rave about how content I am

Now your misusing a general remark. Your using this argument as a defense but this argument could be used to not change anything of the game. The level 90 talent is probably one of the most obvious examples of discontent for the majority of the mage community .

Certain aspects of the game you can make a general consensus based on the opinion of the community majority. It's often takes a long time before the consensus is obvious and perhaps without dispute once it's not important anymore. This can be because it takes time to see this consensus being formed, they see how much better the change is, the opposer will accept that the majority views it differently than his. The consensus can also be formed while it's still an issue. I think it's fairly safe to say this is the case with the lvl 90 talent.

Blizzard has had a tendency to do this as well by consistently saying that a talked about aspect is very subjective. Although true their overusing it and seems like a way to avoid answering the question. It's their job to absorb the subjective thoughts and see if there is a logical consensus being formed. Either that or use their own expert knowledge of gamedesign to decide what is best.

- - - Updated - - -

As for an observatory argument why lvl 90 fail as well can be seen from other class present and past abilties.:

- During vanilla Paladins had their blessing be single target and last 2 minute which had to be refreshed as well. Later on they started buffing them to 5minutes > party wide >current incarnation.
-Later on the paladins got holy power introduced and retribution got a maintenance buff. The one person i did talk to enjoyed it and part of the reason was because it was heavily involved in the holypower system. I believe feral dps and rogue got something similiar like this but they can extend it with abilities. Although i did not follow enough of those class population, it's deffinitly more tolerable or even good.

Using this information I conclude that a mainenance ability can only work when it's tied to a special resource system. Mana can't fullfill this role and thus the level 90 talents fit into the boring maintenance like the old paladin blessing. This believe was only strenghtend when blizzard buffed the duration of the level 90 talents.

[Orrin]

Using this information I conclude that a mainenance ability can only work when it's tied to a special resource system. Mana can't fullfill this role and thus the level 90 talents fit into the boring maintenance like the old paladin blessing. This believe was only strenghtend when blizzard buffed the duration of the level 90 talents.

First of all, many Paladins were unhappy with thir maintanace spell in Cata and in MoP. Second, maintanace ability is fine when it doesn't take many resources. In Cata it was harder to generate Holy Power, so Inquisition was a very big deal, now HP generation is much more smooth. Feral/Rogue maintanace buffs also create an interesting gamplay because they compete with other 5-pointers, so they fit thematically, whereas Mage level 90 talents have too many things going for them at once:
1) They are too powerful (they buff all damage instead of main nuke damage or something like that) and therefore too restrictive not to use them
2) They have to be used for mana regeneration or you can't cast
3) They had both cast time and some kind of other restriction in their first iteration instead of secondary resource cost, so if you screwed their use, your dps dropped too much. It's too restricitve and doesn't have much of a fun factor

[Deleted]

It's too restricitve and doesn't have much of a fun factor

The fun factor i tried to argument why that is with the observation i gave :P. On the other details I agree, kind of obvious since it's based on the same conclusion and examples :P.

[Akraen]

To attempt to state that the L90 talents are fine or there isn't a community outrage against them is laugh worthy, Voltaa.

There have been thousands of complaints over the years where your defense would be perfectly valid. But the L90's weren't just some very vocal majority, the developers admit that as well.

I'm fine with the L90s, honestly. They're too movement restrictive still but they're not bad. Though I'd never say there wasn't an outcry, that was the most significant mage reroll reason in history.

[voltaa]

@taelon I'm not misusing a general remark, I'm just reminding those who believe that this is a clear cut case of we all want change, that it isn't. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority wanted them removed, I also wouldn't be surprised if the majority doesn't mind that they aren't being removed (there can and will be overlap in these sorts of things, people can want it gone, and even be vocal about it, but when it isn't gone not really be too upset either way).

The consensus can also be formed while it's still an issue. I think it's fairly safe to say this is the case with the lvl 90 talent.

I could say the exact same but opposite based on the amount of hard evidence you've presented. Why exactly can't mana fulfill the role of of being tied to maintenance? Is that not entirely what arcane is about with our mastery? While it may not make sense for frost or fire since their damage isn't tied to it, saying blanket statement that it doesn't work when it has been working well for two expansions just confuses me. As a side note, I learned at Blizzcon that mana management is being removed from the 90 talents, and arcane is getting it's own form of mana regen to compensate. They could link the 90 talents to a resource, but I would argue that would make mages LESS interesting than more, this secondary resource would have to be available to all three specs, making them more and more the same, which is another concern people had this expansion of all the specs feeling too similar. The examples you give of resource systems being built into maintenance buffs are for singular specs, not classes.

@Orrin
1. I think you may be right on this one, unless the 90 talents are made into CDs, rather than maintenance buffs, which I believe they might.
2. They won't be next expansion.
3. They've made QoL improvements since then, drawing on your experiences with first iterations doesn't really apply. On the other hand, sometimes being punished for screwing things up is good, there needs to be certain skillcaps in the game, and these kinds of buffs and the punishments for not using them properly are a great way to implement them.

@Akraen
I am not disagreeing that there is a huge outcry against them, I am saying it is overstated just how many people are so vehemently against them.

[Orrin]

Though I'd never say there wasn't an outcry, that was the most significant mage reroll reason in history.

Yep. After 2 weeks playing on level 90 I rerolled as lock to look at new shinies. Then quit and came back only for major patches for a couple of weeks of casual play. Right now I'm healing on my Druid and the only thing that holds me in the game is that Garrosh kill we didn't get because of attendance. Once we do (or I finally kill him with a pug) I quitting until either I want to play my beloved Mage again or something really interesting happens in game.

3. They've made QoL improvements since then, drawing on your experiences with first iterations doesn't really apply. On the other hand, sometimes being punished for screwing things up is good, there needs to be certain skillcaps in the game, and these kinds of buffs and the punishments for not using them properly are a great way to implement them.

First of all, first implementation already killed my interest in MoP. I tried new iteration and while I see them as more tolerable, I still hate them. Especially RoP.
Secondly, as I wrote somewhere in this wall of text, strict time constraint is not the best design in my opinion. Two-resource classes maintenance buffs are basically the same but they do two things at once: hide their time restriction by making it resource restriction and make player an active participant and decision maker rather then the one who has just to maintain buff.

[Akraen]

I think a big part of the L90 problem isn't with the talents themselves. In any past expansion it wouldn't have been so apparent the design contradiction.

The whole expansion mages have felt rooted in a world that wants them to move. I think that's the problem. Encounter design might change enough in the future that it won't be such a big deal.

[voltaa]

I think a big part of the L90 problem isn't with the talents themselves. In any past expansion it wouldn't have been so apparent the design contradiction.

This is how I've felt about them as well, wrong place wrong time. Which is part of why I learned to love them so much, I hated them at the start of the expansion, now I can't imagine playing without them.

[LaserChild9]

Am I the only one tho thinks Focusing Crystal is overpowered?

I may be getting it wrong, but from what I gather, you nuke the hell out of the Crystal for 10 seconds, that's 10 seconds you are not dealing damage to a boss/mob. After that 10 seconds it pulses dealing 130% of the damage taken over 6 seconds. So lets say you do 1k dps, over 10 seconds that 10k damage done. So you spend 10 seconds on the crystal after which time time it does 13000 over 6 seconds. A full minute without using it you would do 60k damage. A full minute while using it, you would do 63k, so that's a 5% damage increase. Is this how it should work? If so I wouldn't call it op, just effective.

[Hatelocker]

I may be getting it wrong, but from what I gather, you nuke the hell out of the Crystal for 10 seconds, that's 10 seconds you are not dealing damage to a boss/mob. After that 10 seconds it pulses dealing 130% of the damage taken over 6 seconds. So lets say you do 1k dps, over 10 seconds that 10k damage done. So you spend 10 seconds on the crystal after which time time it does 13000 over 6 seconds. A full minute without using it you would do 60k damage. A full minute while using it, you would do 63k, so that's a 5% damage increase. Is this how it should work? If so I wouldn't call it op, just effective.

My understanding for why many said they were OP is that you would save all CDs/trinkets and try to line it up with the crystal. So, not only do you get the standard 30% extra damage but now you get 30% on top of your CDs and trinkets and so should result in more than a 5% dmg increase, which makes it better than the other talents in that tier and thus OP. Imho it would basically be RoP 2.0 except now you and the boss can't move for 10 seconds otherwise you lose a crap ton of dmg.

[mrgreenthump]

I may be getting it wrong, but from what I gather, you nuke the hell out of the Crystal for 10 seconds, that's 10 seconds you are not dealing damage to a boss/mob. After that 10 seconds it pulses dealing 130% of the damage taken over 6 seconds. So lets say you do 1k dps, over 10 seconds that 10k damage done. So you spend 10 seconds on the crystal after which time time it does 13000 over 6 seconds. A full minute without using it you would do 60k damage. A full minute while using it, you would do 63k, so that's a 5% damage increase. Is this how it should work? If so I wouldn't call it op, just effective.

Firstly from what we gather the Crystal is on GCD, so its 8,5-9 seconds of damage. Secondly depending on if it's on GCD or not, when it triggers, you will do around 240-270% of your dps as single target damage on a single target during those 6 seconds, making it the most OP burst mechanic ever. And the fact that Mages(not current fire) have strong ability for burst already makes it really really OP for every burst mechanic you can think of when speaking as a ST talent. Now to look it as multitarget, it feels lackluster in comparison, unless Blizzard decides to undertune our AoE for the next expansion as well, but seeing as our AoE is actually good now due Frost being a lot more balanced, I doubt we will see lackluster AoE again even as Fire. But who knows.

Now sure it is a "skill talent" much more than anything Mages have atm, and you will have to plan well to set it up, hence the crazy damage on it atm, but the best Mages around there will get to max the effect a lot of the time.. And when they do the other talents are just no match at all for the Crystal. So in the end, the solution they will probably go for is to make it retard proof and lower the boost to damage or change the way of delivery for the damage.

That is why we call what they showed us @Blizzcon OP. That is why we are saying it will change/get nerfed. That is why we are scared it will go from awesome to useless.

In the end, all we have is much of unknowns for now.. all the Blizzcon talents will likely get tuned in a way that what they showed on Blizzcon will be dated. At the moment we have a waiting game on our hands, we just do not know what is coming and those that do can't say. We just have to wait and see. It is very likely that all we have been whining abt in the past 20 or so pages will be changed for the better, but it is also likely that the same problems persist. In the end all I can say is: "ALIENS"

[Polarthief]

<Snip>

Erm, no, because this would be marginally better than the old Polymorph tier of talents they were going to give us in beta.

As for any contact to the devs regarding issues we have now, I feel it is a tad early. Until the beta there is not too much to be said or done, for all we know they have taken our feedback and suggestions and already implemented them into the alpha. This is a waiting game right now, once we see what is or isn't being done, is when we start being vocal.

I'm actually going to disagree. We need to make 100% sure that they know we (well, MOST of us) want the L90 talents gone/changed and to also voice our concerns about our bomb tier (which tends to get overshadowed over the L90 issue). On top of this, we want them to know that we want our specs to actually feel different and not just change our spell color. They have yet to confirm a single one of these issues, which to me either means they know and don't care to address our concerns immediately (and may or may not even bother to fix them) or are clueless to the issues at hand. I just don't want there to be yet another MoP-like expansion for us because I don't want to see our numbers (players playing Mage) dwindle even further.

[Akraen]

Pretty sure the hesitance for sweeping mage changes are a) making us too much like warlocks, b) each spec lover doesn't want to give up what they like

More changes have happened to frost than any other spec because the community finally had enough. Fire and arcane mages are less willing to form a unified front.

[Dissemoen]

I'm actually going to disagree. We need to make 100% sure that they know we (well, MOST of us) want the L90 talents gone/changed and to also voice our concerns about our bomb tier (which tends to get overshadowed over the L90 issue). On top of this, we want them to know that we want our specs to actually feel different and not just change our spell color. They have yet to confirm a single one of these issues, which to me either means they know and don't care to address our concerns immediately (and may or may not even bother to fix them) or are clueless to the issues at hand. I just don't want there to be yet another MoP-like expansion for us because I don't want to see our numbers (players playing Mage) dwindle even further.

I very much agree. Looking at the last blue posts regarding mage, Alter time seems to catch the headlines of a mage ability in desperate need of change. While AT can be a bit "clumsy" at times, it is nowhere near the lazy and punishing-to-the-player design behind the L90 talents.

[voltaa]

I'm actually going to disagree. We need to make 100% sure that they know we (well, MOST of us) want the L90 talents gone/changed and to also voice our concerns about our bomb tier (which tends to get overshadowed over the L90 issue).

Both of these issues are well known to the devs, they know how strongly people feel about them. The fact that they haven't yet addressed what they plan to do about them when they haven't even announced a date for a beta doesn't really surprise me, we aren't being ignored just because we aren't being tweeted about.

[Deleted]

Firstly from what we gather the Crystal is on GCD, so its 8,5-9 seconds of damage. Secondly depending on if it's on GCD or not, when it triggers, you will do around 240-270% of your dps as single target damage on a single target during those 6 seconds, making it the most OP burst mechanic ever.

I was thinking about combustion: spreading it from the crystal to the boss an then having the crystal doing a good chunk of the combustion dmg on the boss again x 1.3.

[Orrin]

I was thinking about combustion: spreading it from the crystal to the boss an then having the crystal doing a good chunk of the combustion dmg on the boss again x 1.3.

Earlier in this thread people wrote about all the different ways to abuse that mechanic, that's why many posters think that this talent is OP and has to be redesigned