Is WoW always going to be like this?

[Ronduwil]

When you play an RPG like Mass Effect, do you have to beat it in the hardest difficulty for you to consider it "beating the game"?

Not these days. However, in college I played through every single Starcraft scenario with the goal of finishing every one without losing a single unit. I accomplished it, too. I had much more free time in those days. Too bad that it did absolutely nothing for my resume. You can set whatever in-game goals you want, but you need to accept that they are purely for entertainment and are, in the grand scheme of life events, effectively meaningless.

[Sharuko]

but you need to accept that they are purely for entertainment and are, in the grand scheme of life events, effectively meaningless.

If you want to get philosophical here, in the grand scheme of things, most things don't matter and are meaningless including the conversation we are having or these forums. But that is going of on a random tangent and adds nothing to the conversation. I like what Todd Howard has to say about this:

http://youtu.be/7awkYKbKHik?t=37m12s

[pallyopness]

This video epitomizes everything currently wrong with the game and why the subs are dropping. The game has no hook on the player any more.



The only difference between LFR and Heroic bosses is that the latter have more health and do more damage. That's it.

LOL....the only difference huh......you are out of your mind......I take it you have never done a heroic boss?

[Santoryu]

LOL....the only difference huh......you are out of your mind......I take it you have never done a heroic boss?

So what are the other differences?

[Ronduwil]

And my point is making a point that LFR was an attempt at keeping subs when it didn't succeed just makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

I never claimed LFR kept or lost subs. I only said your explanation didn't make sense because LFR didn't help subs whatsoever. I agree that the lack of dungeons definitely attributed to the loss of subs, and many many other things.

This is like saying that a given raid group wasn't trying to defeat the boss because they wiped. Just because LFR failed to retain as many subs as Blizzard had hoped doesn't mean they hadn't hoped for it.

Although I will say focusing entirely on 5 man dungeons is also setting yourself up for failure. The game was at it's best when there was equal attention paid to both 5 mans and raids. Focusing entirely on raids has screwed subs. Focusing entirely on 5 mans would screw subs. If they would go back to making a lot of dungeon content with raid content, I think things would be fine.

In business it's all about return on investment. The goal is not to please everyone; it's to please as many as possible with as few resources as possible. Blizzard, for whatever reason, wasn't willing to allocate as many resources to raids and dungeons as before, and since the resources for those come from the same pool one or the other had to give. In an ideal world with limitless resources they would give us 20 raids and 50 dungeons every expansion, and they would range in difficulty from faceroll to impossible. Unfortunately we live in the real world.

[Sharuko]

In business it's all about return on investment. The goal is not to please everyone; it's to please as many as possible with as few resources as possible.

In the case of WoW, the better return of investment would be if players including casuals played the game longer. My argument is things like LFR hurt that.

[Ronduwil]

If you want to get philosophical here, in the grand scheme of things, most things don't matter and are meaningless including the conversation we are having or these forums. But that is going of on a random tangent and adds nothing to the conversation. I like what Todd Howard has to say about this:

http://youtu.be/7awkYKbKHik?t=37m12s

I've linked this before, and I'll link this again. I suggest that you read through the 6 Harsh Truths That Will Make You a Better Person and figure out where video games fall into that. Here's one pertinent paragraph from that article:

Do the math: How much of your time is spent consuming things other people made (TV, music, video games, websites) versus making your own? Only one of those adds to your value as a human being.

[Sharuko]

I've linked this before, and I'll link this again. I suggest that you read through the 6 Harsh Truths That Will Make You a Better Person and figure out where video games fall into that. Here's one pertinent paragraph from that article:

Again, random tangents, and in this case I felt that quote is complete nonsense.

[Ronduwil]

In the case of WoW, the better return of investment would be if players including casuals played the game longer. My argument is things like LFR hurt that.

I don't dispute that, but my argument is that the alternative is to provide more things like dungeon at the expense of things like raids. I agree that Blizzard's current strategy is failing, but I also think that it's done with raiders' best interests at heart. Consider their response to the MoP sub losses: yet another raid mode, fewer dailies, still no dungeons. Do you really think that was made in the interest of casuals?

[Sharuko]

I don't dispute that, but my argument is that the alternative is to provide more things like dungeon at the expense of things like raids

Why not stick to BC type design, why it is this or that all of a sudden?

[twiddler]

Funny video. When I AFK in LFR, that is what I do--follow a melee player. Over the years, I've noticed that melee tends to have to worst of tunnel vision (perhaps because they have to move) and therefore, it was easy to hide among the masses of big bodies.

[Ronduwil]

Why not stick to BC type design, why it is this or that all of a sudden?

Blizzard employees have explained that time and again. Their accountants didn't like the cost-to-benefit ratio of spending millions of dollars to make content that would only ever be consumed by a few thousand players.

[Sharuko]

Blizzard employees have explained that time and again. Their accountants didn't like the cost-to-benefit ratio of spending millions of dollars to make content that would only ever be consumed by a few thousand players.

I am sure it was the designers, and it was some of them not all of them. The problem with looking at it that way is the assumption that that structure doesn't help the game overall. I do think it helps the game overall. As I said previously, it gave players that unreachable carrot that kept them playing. I can make the argument that instead of top 1% having access to that content they could have made it more accessible for the top 10% or top 20%. That could have been the evolution they should have taken. This way there is still that carrot to chase, but the barrier isn't so low that there isn't a barrier anymore.

[pallyopness]

So what are the other differences?

Name the boss and I will tell you the difference. Almost every single boss has extra mechanics that make the fight more difficult. Hence it being a Heroic Boss. Some bosses have entirely new phases (Heroic Garrosh or Heroic Sha of Fear). Seriously, those that think heroic bosses are identical to lfr bosses with increased damage and health are completely insane and have no idea what they are talking about. It couldn't be further than the truth. It's a blanket statement made by players incapable of doing heroics for one reason or another.

[Jester Joe]

So what are the other differences?

There's a few, go look it up yourself to watch videos, or even look at the dungeon journal and look for the moves labeled "Heroic Only", too many bosses to list each one.

It does vary based on boss, it could be a simple change, or a few huge ones.

[Ronduwil]

I like what Todd Howard has to say about this:

http://youtu.be/7awkYKbKHik?t=37m12s

I got as far as him saying that winning the NCAA tournament video game was exactly the same accomplishment as winning the actual NCAA tournament except for the hat and stopped there. Consider that he makes his living off of misguided young teenagers who buy into that. When he draws a salary from winning at video games I might give credence to that statement. Last time I checked no one offered him a scholarship to any colleges for winning the NCAA tournament video game, nor is the NBA knocking on his door. He makes his living off the creation of video games, not from winning them. Please explain what actual reward you get from completing a heroic raid aside from gear that's going to be vendored within the next year anyway.

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I can make the argument that instead of top 1% having access to that content they could have made it more accessible for the top 10% or top 20%. That could have been the evolution they should have taken. This way there is still that carrot to chase, but the barrier isn't so low that there isn't a barrier anymore.

They agreed with that, and that's why Flex mode was introduced. However, they're not looking to retain only 20% of their subscribers. They ideally want to retain all of them. The difference is that now there are four carrots to chase and each player gets to pick the one they want.

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Seriously, those that think heroic bosses are identical to lfr bosses with increased damage and health are completely insane and have no idea what they are talking about. It couldn't be farther than the truth. It's a blanket statement made by players incapable of doing heroics for one reason or another.

I would go even further than that and say that those that think heroic bosses are identical to normal bosses have no idea what they are talking about. Heroic bosses introduce entirely new mechanics and/or impediments to strategies that one would commonly employ in normal mode.

[Sharuko]

I got as far as him saying that winning the NCAA tournament video game was exactly the same accomplishment as winning the actual NCAA tournament except for the hat and stopped there. Consider that he makes his living off of misguided young teenagers who buy into that. When he draws a salary from winning at video games I might give credence to that statement. Last time I checked no one offered him a scholarship to any colleges for winning the NCAA tournament video game, nor is the NBA knocking on his door. Please explain what actual reward you get from completing a heroic raid aside from gear that's going to be vendored within the next year anyway

You are looking at this from a extremely simple point of view, there are more shades than just black and white. He isn't talking about real world rewards but the actual mental feeling behind such accomplishments. There are a lot of psychological aspects in games especially MMOs which is why we keep playing them. Things like progression is nothing more than purely mental.

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They agreed with that, and that's why Flex mode was introduced. However, they're not looking to retain only 20% of their subscribers. They ideally want to retain all of them. The difference is that now there are four carrots to chase and each player gets to pick the one they want.

And the best way not to retain all of them is to give them an easy way to beat the game.

[cabyio]

The only difference between LFR and Heroic bosses is that the latter have more health and do more damage. That's it.

That is just plain wrong. First, in heroic, every single mechanic matters. Everyone has to do every mechanic correctly or you will most likely wipe. Second, there is usually more mechanics and/or mechanics that work differently. To say its just health and dmg output is a gross over simplification.

[Zachsophone]

Can anyone help me? After I saw this video it got me worried....because I was thinking of coming back in Draenor...but if things will be like this I really don't know anymore.

VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas

min 3:35 (may the trolling begin)

Are things this bad? Can ANY player no matter how bad they are be able to do 100% of the content (Heroic modes not included).

I don't play the game for a long time because how things were in Pandaria. Easy accessibility and easy content for everyone removed my will for progression and willpower to continue playing. That and a community that was getting more antisocial by the second with Instanced content being the top priority at the moment. No more Socializing in the open World ( the Isle of Thunder made hoping for more content with pvp encounters and social gameplay in the world....)



Can someone plz get my hopes up for Draenor? :C

Mod-note: Fixed your link.

I'm confused. Are you saying you only enjoyed content before because not everyone could do it and it was exclusive? Why does it matter?

[pallyopness]

That is just plain wrong. First, in heroic, every single mechanic matters. Everyone has to do every mechanic correctly or you will most likely wipe. Second, there is usually more mechanics and/or mechanics that work differently. To say its just health and dmg output is a gross over simplification.

No shit right? Ill be sure to tell my heroic 25 man raid that heroic siege crafter is identical to lfr....we shall see where that gets us.......