Mage Nether Tempest..Pain in the ass now

[fearist]

Multidotting sucks,
Not going to miss it at all

[mrgreenthump]

Multidotting sucks,
Not going to miss it at all

You mean only spamming dots? Cause I actually liked to multidot 2-3 enemies in MoP, but disliked to just spam dots on group of monsters.

[Polarthief]

I can concede to you on many points, but not that this was an unintended effect. It's not game breaking in any way and it doesn't distract from the spec rotation, quite the contrary, it's simply interesting gameplay. Do you think it's a coincidence that bombs proc AM, and that NT is arcane-themed? If they didn't want it to behave like this, they would have given AB a slightly higher chance to proc missiles and bombs wouldn't have procced them at all.

A complete coincidence, at least in the case of Arcane and Frost, because Fire's bomb has little to no interaction once they nerfed the spreading. Frost Bomb was only "themed" for the Shatter/Frostburn combo on freezable targets (a limitation NT didn't even have), and now it's just for Shatter but nowhere near as strong as it used to be, so it's irrelevant. TBH I wouldn't care either way if they left in the proc chance (I actually don't see why it isn't since we're to assume SN will).

I guess I'm disappointed that even as they decided to give each spec its appropriate bomb (even though it's still a talent), they are taking away the synergies that made NT work well with Arcane... and it's even harder to explain when, as you mentioned, they are giving FB a synergy with Frost.

I do understand the frustrations, but it seems like out of LB/FB (FB which never had true interaction with Frost outside of freezable mobs and LB which was here since LK and lost all synergy after 5.1's nerf), none of the talents actually have any synergy with any spec, except for Arcane Orb (go figure), which seems borderline broken in how useful and amazing it is, so, I mean at least there's that. CS and Meteor are fire-and-forget cooldowns. Orb actually means something and is very synergistic. You also want to make sure not to fuck it up.

The new NT is simply a stand alone ability that takes up a keybind and does is own thing. It's boring, and a worse design than what we have now. I think I would have liked it better as targetable AoE, so it could at least preserve the visuals.

I won't lie and say that the visual is better. I was really expecting the main target to get hit and explode a bunch of "Arcane Fish", similar to live NT, except it spawns an Arcane Fish for every single target it's going to hit. Woulda been awesome. However, with the actual design of the talent is where we sort of split, and here's why: Arcane has never once been about DoTs but straight up single-target nuking things to death. MoP was the first time ever that Arcane was even given any form of DoT damage in the form of a talent, and was it really all that special? In addition, Arcane's AoE has always been iffy since it requires getting into close range which you can't always do.

New NT fixes two things simultaneously: Gives ranged AoE and a DoT to Arcane just to throw something else in besides "ABL, sometimes AM, ABarr", which is a fairly simple rotation, and you don't even need to pick it. You could go fully passive and just use those three spells (this is currently a failed design philosophy, but that's beside the point). NT isn't meant to give you a multi-DoTting ability nor an AM fishing ability, but rather to fill two specific roles that Arcane has neither of (well, technically the entire L75 tier fills that ranged AoE thing for Arcane, but SN and UM are pretty meh and neither fill the DoT role).

You mean only spamming dots? Cause I actually liked to multidot 2-3 enemies in MoP, but disliked to just spam dots on group of monsters.

Kinda how I felt, though I enjoy Affliction's, Destruction's, and Fire's methods of spreading DoTs rather than physically multidotting, though throwing DoTs on a few targets is alright; I absolutely HATE it when I'm doing nothing but "click, 9, click, 9, click, 9, etc.". (9 is my Mage Bomb key [I use a Logitech G600]).

[Coconut]

A complete coincidence, at least in the case of Arcane and Frost, because Fire's bomb has little to no interaction once they nerfed the spreading. Frost Bomb was only "themed" for the Shatter/Frostburn combo on freezable targets (a limitation NT didn't even have), and now it's just for Shatter but nowhere near as strong as it used to be, so it's irrelevant. TBH I wouldn't care either way if they left in the proc chance (I actually don't see why it isn't since we're to assume SN will).

All three bombs were at least slightly geared towards their token spec at the start of MoP. Frost was the weakest (besides Shatter there is the slow which, while not specifically a synergy, is a mainly Frost effect), and LB was nerfed because they didn't like how Fire absolutely preferred it over the other two. Clearly the changes were inconsistent, from a rather strong spec theme, to trying to make them all equally viable by nerfing LB and adjusting damage/targets, to locking them to their specs in WoD.

I get the feeling that you're arguing around semantics just for the sake of being contrary. The bombs didn't just proc missiles by mistake, clearly this was a designed mechanic, and it would have been obvious for whoever came up with it that NT would be more versatile, or at least that it would average a higher number of procs due to having more potential targets (of course FB and LB had to proc them as well, otherwise they would have been worse for arcane by default). That's not saying that the bombs (or even NT) were PRIMARILY an AM proc, just like AB isn't that, only that it was a nice bit of synergy between abilities with a random/dynamic element to it that made it interesting.

Maybe Arcane Orb will fill the void, but still, it's a shame because imho Arcane + NT were one of the better designed spec interactions in game (but then again I only play Arcane, so I may be biased).

[Polarthief]

Maybe Arcane Orb will fill the void, but still, it's a shame because imho Arcane + NT were one of the better designed spec interactions in game (but then again I only play Arcane, so I may be biased).

And I simply don't see it, then again, I play anything BUT Arcane (though I have played it through being forced by my guild), so I may be a bit biased against it, haha. Still though, I get your point and I even agree with you on some places, but it just comes down to "it's their game and they will do as they please", unfortunately.

You can always send them feedback/posts (or get someone else to if you don't have access) about how you think this should be changed, but yeah. It's their product.

[Coconut]

it's their game and they will do as they please

Yeah, absolutely. We're all just voicing our opinions as players in here.

[Polarthief]

Yeah, absolutely. We're all just voicing our opinions as players in here.

*Nodnod* Though I do get your frustrations! Heck, tons of us want Rune of Power absolutely abolished (most notably those of us who don't play Arcane, go figure XD), but they continue to try and balance it with a new set of talents, and will fail miserably at it because it's simply not balanaceable like this, sadly.

Again, I do recommend you channel your frustrations into a feedback post (or a PM to someone with beta access for them to make a feedback post) and see if they might change their minds. I personally don't mind too much since, if I actually DO play WoD (kinda fuming over the whole Azeroth Choppers thing atm... heh), I'd most likely play Frost anyways *shrug*.

[Lionheart-rad]

I think a lot of people, myself included are more concerned with how the gameplay "feels" rather than what their DPS will be. I'm sure the damage will be more or less balanced in the end, with some spells being more or less efficient for different situations. It's ultimately irrelevant.

NT allowed a little bit of gameplay variation for fights with a lot of targets, without the need of multiple keybinds for an entirely different rotation. Refreshing it on secondary targets also paid off as an AM proc for the main target, so doing it felt rewarding and interacted with your main rotation. To me, playing arcane with the MoP version of NT was an enjoyable experience, and it would have been even more so with the removal of snapshotting (as a more reliable AM proc tool).

Gameplay-wise the new version is just another button you have to press every X seconds, even if it procs missiles it's not going to be reliable as it doesn't happen often enough (just like current frost bomb). Fluid, interactive gameplay feels better than standard rotation.

This!
I really enjoy the MoP arcane mage, with multi dotting and fishing for procs. It's so good to not have a rotation set in stone and decide if it's worth it to fish for AM procs, keep using AM > ABlast > AM > ABlast or use ABarrage and rebuild charges! Fluid and interactive gameplay as you described. And I'm so sad we're losing a lot of this on WoD, with evocation and the improved arcane power we're probably spamming a lot of Arcane Blast again.
Even worse, as mentioned by Polarthief, you could go with 3 passives and just use ABlast, AM and ABarr.

[Coconut]

*Nodnod* Though I do get your frustrations! Heck, tons of us want Rune of Power absolutely abolished (most notably those of us who don't play Arcane, go figure XD), but they continue to try and balance it with a new set of talents, and will fail miserably at it because it's simply not balanaceable like this, sadly.

Hey, just because I play Arcane doesn't mean I like Rune of Power! :P

It's not that it doesn't sound cool (on paper), but it's such an encounter dependent mechanic if you want to get it right, and Blizzard can't invest that much development time around a single ability. As it is, it's nothing more than an upkeep buff, ground-targeted Inquisition with a cast time... and I didn't like the regular Inquisition either.

Ideally, the skill test of RoP should be your ability to stay in the rune as much as possible throughout the various mechanics of the encounter. Things like staying on the edge of its radius to make sure it doesn't get covered in targeted ground effects, blinking out to avoid localized damage, efficiently switching between runes on movement phases, etc. The rune(s) would have to stay up for the duration of the encounter (not unlike warlock portals), be instant cast for emergencies, with a somewhat punitive cooldown (I would say 15-30 seconds) and/or a ramp up buff you get for staying in the same rune (so you don't get the full effect right away, and get punished if you leave it). But obviously you can't work every encounter around this.

RoP is basically the opposite of IW. If there are no mechanics to challenge it (predictable raid damage), IW is gimped, if there are no mechanics for RoP (Patchwork fight), it is overpowered. They can balance IW around full upkeep, but there can easily be too much movement for RoP to be viable in the way I suggested. Ultimately they can't build encounters around it, and they can't make it most rewarding when unchallenged either, so they turned this ability into an illusion, by giving it a cast time and no cd.

The actual, current, skill test of RoP isn't staying in the rune... it's refreshing the rune efficiently, just like any upkeep buff. They removed the cooldown and they made it huge so that the only variables are the cast time and duration. Your concerns with rune of power are that you do not waste valuable seconds by casting it more often than you should, and that you won't have to recast it during burst or while your trinkets/cooldowns are up.

It also shares the privilege with invocation of being very awkward in freeform/solo play and pvp, where the last thing you'd like to do is set up your one minute buff every time before you attack something.

[halfawake]

So I definitely agree on liking NT with arcane as it is right now fishing for procs, etc. The new talents however are quite nice... Prismatic crystal especially is great for all three specs and is pretty awesome to use.

As far as Rune of Power, would it be OP to offer further interaction by making blink turn into a teleport between runes? Possibly with a reduced cooldown or refreshed cooldown. Or a no cooldown blink where you can't move anywhere beyond your rune but casting a new rune allows you to teleport to it. I think it's an interesting idea but probably too far out/extreme to implement :P

Anyway, I was loathing the bomb changes at first too but the new talents are pretty awesome. Ice nova into prismatic crystal is fun. It's more direct damage like mages have historically been and fire gets to keep unlimited living bombs which was also part of the spec for a long time. I think WoD is shaping up pretty nicely for PVE mages.

Honestly tho, right now I feel like Frost plays the best out of the three specs. Blizzard reducing frost orb cooldown is great. Single target has two procs as well as talent choices. Fire still leaves a little bit to be desired outside of talents but hopefully that will get better with some crit. Can't comment on arcane because I haven't played it extensively, but I will miss bomb interaction.

[Orinoco]

I've never thought that multi-dotting on my mage felt right - the change to NT is definitely a good one for me, both in term of mage-theme and QoL.

[Polarthief]

I've never thought that multi-dotting on my mage felt right - the change to NT is definitely a good one for me, both in term of mage-theme and QoL.

This is how I feel personally, and new NT actually makes me want to play Arcane a bit, as well as Improved Blink.

[Trustbucket]

Multidotting sucks,
Not going to miss it at all

Adds a skill cap to AoE situations, I personally find it fun. Getting pyroblast ticking on the most targets possible while dotting them up for pyromaniac debuff while also trying to get decent ignites spread with a high mastery build is more fun than doing a single target rotation on an AoE pack.

[Orinoco]

Adds a skill cap to AoE situations, I personally find it fun. Getting pyroblast ticking on the most targets possible while dotting them up for pyromaniac debuff while also trying to get decent ignites spread with a high mastery build is more fun than doing a single target rotation on an AoE pack.

You'll be doing this anyway if you play fire, minus the pyromaniac de-buff.

[Elegiac]

Adds a skill cap to AoE situations, I personally find it fun. Getting pyroblast ticking on the most targets possible while dotting them up for pyromaniac debuff while also trying to get decent ignites spread with a high mastery build is more fun than doing a single target rotation on an AoE pack.

Go play a warlock.

[Polarthief]

Adds a skill cap to AoE situations, I personally find it fun. Getting pyroblast ticking on the most targets possible while dotting them up for pyromaniac debuff while also trying to get decent ignites spread with a high mastery build is more fun than doing a single target rotation on an AoE pack.

I don't see how keeping up NT on a few targets is all that fun, nor really adding a skillcap. Regardless, Mage wasn't intended to be the class to do this.

[dreaderus]

I enjoy the arcane just want to not get owned in pvp but I am just leveling mine up now. its defiantly more of a challenge at mid 70s then some other classes but I am beginning to enjoy it more. I just got NT and sort of really enjoy how it works now. so on one hand full AOE pulses seem cool but its tough to play on live atm and have all these radical changes happening.

BTW anyone else sort of surprised that arcane orb is a level 100 talent? seems odd should be baseline arcane

- - - Updated - - -

After using NT for a while now I really like it the way it is. sucks its going to change.

Will the visuals of the spell remain intact? it looks wonderful atm.

[Mizzet]

I think a lot of people, myself included are more concerned with how the gameplay "feels" rather than what their DPS will be.

Well, you can chalk me up as one of those who cares about gameplay quality too, and in that regard I don't think that kind of multi-dotting gameplay has a place in the Mage class.

[dreaderus]

Well, you can chalk me up as one of those who cares about gameplay quality too, and in that regard I don't think that kind of multi-dotting gameplay has a place in the Mage class.

I would reword this to include "in my opinion" as there certainly isn't any factual statement here in terms of speaking for everyone.

[Elegiac]

I would reword this to include "in my opinion" as there certainly isn't any factual statement here in terms of speaking for everyone.

"I don't think" carries an implicit declaration of subjectivity. No need to be a pedant.