[Rant] ilvl issue and players skill

[Marrilaife]

I do about 15 M+ dungeon a day that are over +10 key. I manage to run about 12 of them successfully why experiencing maybe 3 fails a day.

15 dungeons a day? Well no wonder pugs can't match your endless experience... Just join the "must have m+ score / raider.io" crowd and call it a day, you're a minority of people who live inside m+, group with the likes of you. More efficient and less frustrating.

Even if there was less casual gear lying around still people could gear up without setting a foot in a specific dungeon they just failed in - they could get gear from raiding, or pvp, or the other dungeons. Your expectations for everyone to know every dungeon won't be met unless you cherry pick people similar to you yourself.

[Jastall]

Pugs gonna be pugs. Run with a guild if you want a solid, cohesive group with known performance.

If you want more extreme vetting, demand more than AOTC, Armory or use websites like raider.io. There are plenty of tools to filter the bads, and ilvl has never been a foolproof measure even before Legion.

[david0925]

15 dungeons a day? Well no wonder pugs can't match your endless experience... Just join the "must have m+ score / raider.io" crowd and call it a day, you're a minority of people who live inside m+, group with the likes of you. More efficient and less frustrating.

Even if there was less casual gear lying around still people could gear up without setting a foot in a specific dungeon they just failed in - they could get gear from raiding, or pvp, or the other dungeons. Your expectations for everyone to know every dungeon won't be met unless you cherry pick people similar to you yourself.

I actually don't even know what side he wants to take and it seems looks like a mixed bag of random flaming, humble bragging, and constant side flipping.

Maybe Trump does play this game.

[Deleted]

See? The second part is in your head. You think you can titanforge your gear to level of Mythic Raider? Kk bro, feel free to try.

Perfectly possible.

My feral alt: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...vencrest/myzrl
My hunter main: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...vencrest/myzxd

The ilvl difference between the 2 is negligible and was 0 before last raid when I got my trinket upgrades. I've done minimal effort on my alt and he has the same weapon ilvl as my Hunter, for example. Sure, ilvl isn't everything, except for the fact that the ilvl budget of my NLC path on my Feral is actually higher than on my Hunter.

If I bothered to actually do my weekly +10 on my Druid, or do Argus content at all, I'm confident I'd be 940+ easily. Sadly I don't have enough time for that as I can't play a lot.

The main difference between the 2? My Feral has 36 Heroic ToS kills, 0 Mythic. My Hunter has 109 Heroic ToS kills and 73 Mythic ToS kills. And over 100 more M+ dungeons done. Yet they are hardly 3 ilvl apart.

[Eurhetemec]

I know right, 2 links in one signature is confusing af

Given they both say:

"If you're looking for my total M+ experience, last I checked it was somewhere like this:
2+ Dungeons completed in time: 320ish
5+ Dungeons completed in time: 230ish
10+ Dungeons completed in time: 75ish

Feel free to hit that "Like" if you liked my tanking performance "

You're proving my point lol. You have HUGE M+ experience. Yeah maybe one character geared up outside that, mostly, but you're not this fantasy "never been in a dungeon, ruined my M+ run" guy. Your totals are what matters, not really an individual character.

I don’t think I’m going to link anyone else’s armory here especially because I’d be using it as a negative in my argument (and in the argument overall because either way someone is getting called shitty) so if you’d like you can find some on your own and you can even see that another poster claimed they hit a high Ilvl from doing nothing and went into M+.

Regardless, unless the people’s armories that Id be linking were aware of it I’d rather not. I’m not sure if that’s considered naming and shaming in this case but I’m gonna avoid that overall. However you’re free to explore and find some, I can tell you I have 6-7 off the top of my head I saw yesterday from repeatedly running mythic+.

I’m not a dick in-game. The 2 people I was whining about before I gave explanations to and stayed for the entire dungeon even though it was 15-20 over the time limit. They told me exactly what they were doing, they hit a higher ilvl that was acceptable for mythic+ and decided to start doing some. The tank said before the +12 his highest completed was a 7. There’s been a few others I’ve seen on the forums as well that I remember. But I’d rather say you’re right than bring some random people into an argument they don’t even know about/don’t want to take part in.

There’s a reason I didn’t name those specific two players in my first post that you responded to. I’m not sure why you expect me to link their armories or anyone else’s. Of course it’d be that simple to prove myself right but i don’t really want to embarrass any players or make them feel bad for running with me.

Okay, I admit I can respect not linking people's armories if it might be seen as naming and shaming.

But equally, you can't just go around claiming that there are "many" people like that and not providing any sort of evidence, then getting made when people call you on it. If I say my city is full of expert iceskaters, and then provide no evidence, it would be fair for you to say it seemed likely I was full of shit, frankly. So that's what I'm saying about your "got 930+ w/o raiding/dungeons" deal.

The other issue is that you can be an expert raider whilst being fairly shit at dungeons. I think you can agree, no? It might not be common, but I think it's a lot more common than "never been to either a raid or a dungeon, am 930+". I see this every expansion - people use dungeons up to H to get into basic gear to start the basic raids, then they pretty much never go in a dungeon again. Then when it comes to alts or gearing off-specs or whatever they're a disaster, no matter how well they memorized every step of various raids.

You see them complaining about M+ - they're they people who are SUPER SALTY that they "have" to do M+ to gear up "despite" being raiders. You've seen the threads. They don't want to put in the effort, they feel like they're being forced in there, and they thus tend to be slapdash/lazy.

Re: armories, if you do have a bunch of examples, feel free to PM me them. I've never harassed anyone in game nor ever been infracted in any way in any Blizzard game (or any multiplayer game, actually - on forums a few times though), so I won't be saying anythign do them. Two isn't going to cut it for me though, not for "many".

[Blackheart87]

We are in a "Before the new Tier" Timeline.
Now, there is no really need to do a 11+ or beyond.
Now we it's easy to get Raid Ilvl out from raid. It's like a 6.0, 5.0, 4.0 etc.. Argus and the new M+ are for "Argus Raid Content" not for ToS contet.
ToS it's OLD and it's now time to let "casual" people gear up for new raid.
It's a MMORPG, and skill count nothing, cause people with more money have more skill than you in real life and know how to count in the game too.
If you want a game that only count for skill, play a MOBA, play a full FPS game, MMORPG born from people have dreams and don't like to have "limit" in a game. Make to many limit in the game and you will have no game to play. Vanilla was the first game with easy and "semi-afk raid" with "no clue talent it's all ok" and people like it, people who don't play game when it's come. WoW is for "all" and must be "for all". If you want "MORE" don't pug and choose your friend.

[FrostyK]

I actually don't even know what side he wants to take and it seems looks like a mixed bag of random flaming, humble bragging, and constant side flipping.

Maybe Trump does play this game.

It's because you're caring more about me rather than the topic itself. Which shows the level of your matureness and understanding of said topic. I have many people here who have contributed good response without giving a fuck which side I am on. Which is good.

[david0925]

Perfectly possible.

My feral alt: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...vencrest/myzrl
My hunter main: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...vencrest/myzxd

The ilvl difference between the 2 is negligible and was 0 before last raid when I got my trinket upgrades. I've done minimal effort on my alt and he has the same weapon ilvl as my Hunter, for example. Sure, ilvl isn't everything, except for the fact that my the ilvl budget of my NLC path on my Feral is actually higher than on my Hunter.

If I bothered to actually do my weekly +10 on my Druid, or do Argus content at all, I'm confident I'd be 940+ easily.

The main difference between the 2? My Feral has 36 Heroic ToS kills, 0 Mythic. My Hunter has 109 Heroic ToS kills and 73 Mythic ToS kills. And over 130 more M+ dungeons done.

Your hunter main also cares a lot more about secondary stats distribution as opposed to your feral alt, whose stats (with the exception of haste) are all extremely close to each other. Your trinkets on your feral are also far from ideal. Let's humor the thought of "if you do stuff on your alt it can be 940". 3 ilvl jump means you need at least 40 ilvl upgrade from all of your items summed up. You can't drop your 4 piece, so that already limits 4 of your worst items, ilvl speaking. The other slots you have are 925, 940, 930, 920, 915, 935, and 920. Getting a 40 total ilvl upgrade out of those slots using just m10 chest (random) and argus (910 base, and also random), even for a spec that doesn't really care about secondaries, is difficult.

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It's because you're caring more about me rather than the topic itself. Which shows the level of your matureness and understanding of said topic. I have many people here who have contributed good response without giving a fuck which side I am on. Which is good.

I explicitly told you why I disagreed with you. Having a coherent argument is extremely important in any sort of argument. When you flame people for "maturity" because you don't have a coherent argument and just seem to be rambling, it just shows you're not worth talking to.

I perfectly understand the topic at hand and already am giving meaningful discussion to those that are, you know, discussing. As opposed to just rambling and constantly flipping his side while tossing bragging and flaming into the "discussion", but keep telling yourself that your posts are the ones that is actually sparking meaningful discussion if it makes you feel better.

[Deleted]

Your hunter main also cares a lot more about secondary stats distribution as opposed to your feral alt, whose stats (with the exception of haste) are all extremely close to each other. Your trinkets on your feral are also far from ideal. Let's humor the thought of "if you do stuff on your alt it can be 940". 3 ilvl jump means you need at least 40 ilvl upgrade from all of your items summed up. You can't drop your 4 piece, so that already limits 4 of your worst items, ilvl speaking. The other slots you have are 925, 940, 930, 920, 915, 935, and 920. Getting a 40 total ilvl upgrade out of those slots using just m10 chest (random) and argus (910 base, and also random), even for a spec that doesn't really care about secondaries, is difficult.

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All true, but not the point that was being discussed there. The back & forth between them was purely about the possibility of forging your way to an ilvl similar to that of someone who raids Mythic, which is entirely possible and not hard at all. Will you be less optimally geared? Potentially so, but that's not necessarily the case as well.

[satimy]

I think it's great, it's a punishment for the moron fake elitists that have plagued wow all expansion

[david0925]

All true, but not the point that was being discussed there. The back & forth between them was purely about the possibility of forging your way to an ilvl similar to that of someone who raids Mythic, which is entirely possible and not hard at all. Will you be less optimally geared? Potentially so, but that's not necessarily the case as well.

I do agree with you, and I'm just using your anecdotal case as supporting evidence for why TF inflating stats is even less of an issue than people make it out to be solely because of optimization of gear is different based on different class.

People make a much bigger deal out of TF than it is. While I also agree that I dislike the system, it makes a far smaller impact than what people think it does. Sure, a heroic raider can TF to 940 in a single slot. The chance of that happening is the SAME as a mythic raider to 955 in a single slot (25 ilvl). The odd chance of an item TF from 910 or lower to 940 or higher is so low that it's not even worth talking about on a macro scale. Thus the ilvl gap closing that happens because of titanforging is extremely rare, because only when you titanforge for more than 25 ilvls, does that argument hold true (as you cannot TF from 930 to higher than 955 in current patch).

So let's assume someone in all mythic base gear versus someone in all heroic base gear. The ilvl differential will be 15 in 12 slots (assuming 3 relics in weapons will also cause a 15 weapon ilvl differential), so you're looking at 180 ilvl divided by 14 slots, which is 13 ilvl.

If you absolutely don't care about 4 piece, trinkets, secondary selection, and trinket choices (thus are basically just equipping everything you have looted that has the highest ilvl), that's about the spread we see nowadays on live.

We have plenty of raiders with 945+ in bag ilvl but stayed around 935-940 because of that.

[FrostyK]

Your hunter main also cares a lot more about secondary stats distribution as opposed to your feral alt, whose stats (with the exception of haste) are all extremely close to each other. Your trinkets on your feral are also far from ideal. Let's humor the thought of "if you do stuff on your alt it can be 940". 3 ilvl jump means you need at least 40 ilvl upgrade from all of your items summed up. You can't drop your 4 piece, so that already limits 4 of your worst items, ilvl speaking. The other slots you have are 925, 940, 930, 920, 915, 935, and 920. Getting a 40 total ilvl upgrade out of those slots using just m10 chest (random) and argus (910 base, and also random), even for a spec that doesn't really care about secondaries, is difficult.

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I explicitly told you why I disagreed with you. Having a coherent argument is extremely important in any sort of argument. When you flame people for "maturity" because you don't have a coherent argument and just seem to be rambling, it just shows you're not worth talking to.

I perfectly understand the topic at hand and already am giving meaningful discussion to those that are, you know, discussing. As opposed to just rambling and constantly flipping his side while tossing bragging and flaming into the "discussion", but keep telling yourself that your posts are the ones that is actually sparking meaningful discussion if it makes you feel better.

You're literally the ONLY one in this thread who thinks I'm "switching side". So yah, case close. Read your "coherent" argument. Point taken and considered. Have a good day.

[Eurhetemec]

Perfectly possible.

My feral alt: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...vencrest/myzrl
My hunter main: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...vencrest/myzxd

The ilvl difference between the 2 is negligible and was 0 before last raid when I got my trinket upgrades. I've done minimal effort on my alt and he has the same weapon ilvl as my Hunter, for example. Sure, ilvl isn't everything, except for the fact that my the ilvl budget of my NLC path on my Feral is actually higher than on my Hunter.

If I bothered to actually do my weekly +10 on my Druid, or do Argus content at all, I'm confident I'd be 940+ easily.

The main difference between the 2? My Feral has 36 Heroic ToS kills, 0 Mythic. My Hunter has 109 Heroic ToS kills and 73 Mythic ToS kills. And over 100 more M+ dungeons done.

Yet you aren't actually an example of the problem, are you?

Because whilst one CHARACTER geared up outside that framework, you're an experienced raider, and presumably M+ PLAYER. Those are transferable skills. If you know how a boss or dungeon works, you know how it works. If you know how to tank, you know how to tank. Sure, an unfamiliar class may give you bad instincts, slow you down, or the like, but it won't make you incompetent.

And people are reporting actual incompetence. Like, drop me on a Pally tank right now, and I wouldn't have any M+ experience with a Paladin, but I would with DK and DH, and looooong experience in non-M+ tanking with Druid and Prot Warrior, and altogether, I'd be okay, I'd suggest. Not amazing, but if I was geared appropriately, no-one would be booing.

I'm sure it's similar for you.

DPS characters are bit more complicated of an issue, as the transferable skills are arguably smaller but...

[david0925]

Yet you aren't actually an example of the problem, are you?

Because whilst one CHARACTER geared up outside that framework, you're an experienced raider, and presumably M+ PLAYER. Those are transferable skills. If you know how a boss or dungeon works, you know how it works. If you know how to tank, you know how to tank. Sure, an unfamiliar class may give you bad instincts, slow you down, or the like, but it won't make you incompetent.

And people are reporting actual incompetence. Like, drop me on a Pally tank right now, and I wouldn't have any M+ experience with a Paladin, but I would with DK and DH, and looooong experience in non-M+ tanking with Druid and Prot Warrior, and altogether, I'd be okay, I'd suggest. Not amazing, but if I was geared appropriately, no-one would be booing.

I'm sure it's similar for you.

DPS characters are bit more complicated of an issue, as the transferable skills are arguably smaller but...

The argument people are throwing out is that a person that is heroic geared can have similar or higher ilvl than mythic raiders, thus making it "confusing" for "pug leaders" to "vet based on ilvl". Under that context his feral druid 100% qualify as "part of the problem".

I put everything in quotation because i disagree with either the definition of methodology, but under that context his alt, as well as any 9/9m mythic raider's alt that is 0/9m mythic, absolutely fit under those criteria. Whether he is good or not on that character is an entirely different argument.

[Achilles55]

Let's humor the thought of "if you do stuff on your alt it can be 940". 3 ilvl jump means you need at least 40 ilvl upgrade from all of your items summed up. You can't drop your 4 piece, so that already limits 4 of your worst items, ilvl speaking. The other slots you have are 925, 940, 930, 920, 915, 935, and 920. Getting a 40 total ilvl upgrade out of those slots using just m10 chest (random) and argus (910 base, and also random), even for a spec that doesn't really care about secondaries, is difficult.

I'm not sure why this is always so hard for people to believe. I responded to someone else about a similar topic and would feel silly writing the exact same message again but basically I've never even stepped foot into mythic and am very well optimized and high IL. It's not as unobtainable as a some people would like to think.

[david0925]

I'm not sure why this is always so hard for people to believe. I responded to someone else about a similar topic and would feel silly writing the exact same message again but basically I've never even stepped foot into mythic and am very well optimized and high IL. It's not as unobtainable as a some people would like to think.

I never said it was unobtainable, but the frequency is not high enough to be considered a problem on a macro scale.

"you" getting lucky and get a toon that is 940 with 4 piece (in more extreme cases, 2p NH, 4p ToS), best trinkets (which for many classes involve an Arcano which isn't even a Mythic drop)

Also if you focus on certain specs (such as most tanks), you get the case that ilvl trumps everything (some classes want to reach certain "breakpoints" and some secondaries are still better, but the sheer gain of armor, stamina, and primary stat usually outweight secondary selection unless you're getting absolutely garbage stat allocation on your higher ilvl pieces) and for many of them 4 piece (if not 2 piece) are not worth using because the bonus are so lack luster. For these specs, getting "optimized" gear is much easier because there was little optimization to go with.

So if you are someone that plays a class that is very hard to optimize (such as a BM hunter, because they use 2+4), and can still get to "mythic level gear level" through sheer luck. Good for them, that's a much more rare case.

[Hisholyness]

I'm only 920 on my DH because I have to pass up ilvl upgrades that dont give crit

[ComputerNerd]

If you find an overly simplistic and low effort measure of a player's readiness to be unreliable, then it is you at fault.
We used to talk to people, but now complain when a measure taking a whole 2 seconds or less to judge isn't working.

[Eurhetemec]

The argument people are throwing out is that a person that is heroic geared can have similar or higher ilvl than mythic raiders, thus making it "confusing" for "pug leaders" to "vet based on ilvl". Under that context his feral druid 100% qualify as "part of the problem".

I put everything in quotation because i disagree with either the definition of methodology, but under that context his alt, as well as any 9/9m mythic raider's alt that is 0/9m mythic, absolutely fit under those criteria. Whether he is good or not on that character is an entirely different argument.

I don't agree though.

He's not part of the problem FrostyK was complaining about, which is people who have no idea what's happening in M+, joining M+ groups.

My argument is also all about M+. I'm not talking about joining PUG raids, and AFAIK, no-one I've responded to has been.

What FrostyK and Taeldorian seem to envisage is that there are players who:

A) Don't raid.

B) Don't do dungeons.

and yet somehow get 930+ ilvl, AND want to join M+ groups.

I don't doubt there are a few PvE grinders who get 930+ ilvl without doing that stuff, but they're like bloody diamond dust, and they don't want to join M+ groups, because if they did, they'd have been doing that for a long time.

But there is a group of people who join M+ groups without knowing what's going on, and who feel "forced" to join them. Some raiders. My suggestion is that they are likely the source of totally clueless about M+ dungeons people that are coming in, more than anything else.

Everyone who has said "I have a character I geared mostly outside raids/dungeons!" so far is an experienced M+ player, so they're not the problem.

[Achilles55]

I never said it was unobtainable, but the frequency is not high enough to be considered a problem on a macro scale.

"you" getting lucky and get a toon that is 940 with 4 piece (in more extreme cases, 2p NH, 4p ToS), best trinkets (which for many classes involve an Arcano which isn't even a Mythic drop)

Also if you focus on certain specs (such as most tanks), you get the case that ilvl trumps everything (some classes want to reach certain "breakpoints" and some secondaries are still better, but the sheer gain of armor, stamina, and primary stat usually outweight secondary selection unless you're getting absolutely garbage stat allocation on your higher ilvl pieces) and for many of them 4 piece (if not 2 piece) are not worth using because the bonus are so lack luster. For these specs, getting "optimized" gear is much easier because there was little optimization to go with.

So if you are someone that plays a class that is very hard to optimize (such as a BM hunter, because they use 2+4), and can still get to "mythic level gear level" through sheer luck. Good for them, that's a much more rare case.

That's a good point and well worded. All 3 of my 110s are actually tanks so I am lucky in that I'm not forced to use a CoF, arcano, 2p+4pc etc. With that being said I think the general themes that have popped up in this thread of titanforging disincentivizing harder content, high IL gear being too easily obtainable, and it being harder (there have always been bad players with high IL but it's a lot more prevalent in Legion) to filter out bad players are accurate. What do you think?