Blue confirmed they're considering balancing specs

[Flarelaine]

Some of these "don't fix / touch vanilla" are a small minority that liked there overpowered broken spec at the cost of other players that played underpowered very broken specs.
These people need to stay out of wow and play on private for the sake of the community.

This is pretty much what I have been hinting at for some time.

[Wiedzemir]

Some of these "don't fix / touch vanilla" are a small minority that liked there overpowered broken spec at the cost of other players that played underpowered very broken specs.
These people need to stay out of wow and play on private for the sake of the community.

Overpowered, broken spec? Let's see your list of broken specs. Also don't forget to specify exactly why you think these specs are broken.

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This is pretty much what I have been hinting at for some time.

You're hinting at the fact that you don't want the classic WoW, you just want the pre-cata world but with modern gameplay. Though you're backpedaling now while throwing "strawman" everywhere.

[Perkunas]

Raiding is the endgame. It always was. One eventually wants to get there.

No, raiding is niche in Vanilla. It was not the activity all people took part in at cap. For the majority of players getting to cap was their end game. Most never made it and more often than not people didn't want to dedicate the time it took to raiding progression content in Vanilla. Sure, you saw the inside of MC or BWL but if you were trying to kill C'thun you were likely playing 30+ hours a week for farming and raiding. That's not something the normal player was doing.

[Nitros14]

This is pretty much what I have been hinting at for some time.

That's a strawman. No one here is looking to preserve a 'broken spec' they don't even play yet and haven't levelled. Whatever the best spec turned out to be, people would play that. What a lot of people want to do is go back in time and fight the same bosses people fought back then with the same raid and class tools. A true WoW Classic is as close to that as you can get.

[Flarelaine]

Overpowered, broken spec? Let's see your list of broken specs. Also don't forget to specify exactly why you think these specs are broken.

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You're hinting at the fact that you don't want the classic WoW, you just want the pre-cata world but with modern gameplay. Though you're backpedaling now while throwing "strawman" everywhere.

Reading comprehension being a challenge for you does not entitle you to creatively re-interpret my comments. I wrote what I wrote. You are the one who fails to understand those comments written in plain English and takes offence when called out on strawmanning.

[Perkunas]

This is pretty much what I have been hinting at for some time.

I played a Paladin in Vanilla, but I understood my role in raids and performed it without bitching because I knew what raids were as I was from EQ and Earth and Beyond. I understood what I was getting into.

[RapBreon]

Guild Wars was also gear dependent, only you had item quality instead of item level. I concede, the different gearing philosophy may pose difficulties but not necassarily beyond number tuning.

Max 'ilvl' gear is given to a PvP character. There is no advantage for bringing a max 'ilvl' PvE character to a PvP arena besides the ability to access 'cooler armour and weapon styles'. The barrier for entry for a PvE character to get 'max ilvl gear' was a little tougher, but irrelevant when I can spend 10 seconds recreating a PvP version of my character and be 100% on even footing. You only ever 'geared up' if you wanted to look different from everyone else while running from a touch Ranger as fast as humanly possible. As for gearing for PvE, absurdly trivial compared to WoW or other RPGs of its time (or even of RPGs today), could solo the whole thing - easily - if you didn't care about looking cool. Imagine doing raids for cosmetic upgrades only!

That game was designed 100% to be not gear dependent for all things PvP.

[Flarelaine]

No, raiding is niche in Vanilla. It was not the activity all people took part in at cap. For the majority of players getting to cap was their end game. Most never made it and more often than not people didn't want to dedicate the time it took to raiding progression content in Vanilla. Sure, you saw the inside of MC or BWL but if you were trying to kill C'thun you were likely playing 30+ hours a week for farming and raiding. That's not something the normal player was doing.

Even if most people settled for max level, there was still more to do. Just because people did not take that step does not mean it wasn't there.

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Whatever the best spec turned out to be, people would play that. What a lot of people want to do is go back in time and fight the same bosses people fought back then with the same raid and class tools. A true WoW Classic is as close to that as you can get.

I agree people will play whatever performs the best. Which is why I'm arguing there should be more variety, more choice in the matter. Damage meters showing nothing but teal and yellow scare me.

[Perkunas]

Even if most people settled for max level, there was still more to do. Just because people did not take that step does not mean it wasn't there.

It was designed for the hardcore. Raiding was niche and classes all had A spec that worked for raiding. Some had multiple and they were lucky but that's what the game was. That was classic.

[Flarelaine]

I played a Paladin in Vanilla, but I understood my role in raids and performed it without bitching because I knew what raids were as I was from EQ and Earth and Beyond. I understood what I was getting into.

Then what I wrote does not apply to you. Other, more rabid, commenters have already confirmed having played mage/rogue/warrior back then:

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Max 'ilvl' gear is given to a PvP character. There is no advantage for bringing a max 'ilvl' PvE character to a PvP arena besides the ability to access 'cooler armour and weapon styles'. The barrier for entry for a PvE character to get 'max ilvl gear' was a little tougher, but irrelevant when I can spend 10 seconds recreating a PvP version of my character and be 100% on even footing. You only ever 'geared up' if you wanted to look different from everyone else while running from a touch Ranger as fast as humanly possible. As for gearing for PvE, absurdly trivial compared to WoW or other RPGs of its time (or even of RPGs today), could solo the whole thing - easily - if you didn't care about looking cool. Imagine doing raids for cosmetic upgrades only!

That game was designed 100% to be not gear dependent for all things PvP.

I defer to you on Guild Wars. I only ever played it to discover the world and steered clear of PvP. Then I abandoned it once all the things it had over WoW had begun popping up in Azeroth.

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It was designed for the hardcore. Raiding was niche and classes all had A spec that worked for raiding. Some had multiple and they were lucky but that's what the game was. That was classic.

Yes, I understand that's how it was. I just don't find it reason enough to keep it.

[Perkunas]

Then what I wrote does not apply to you. Other, more rabid, commenters have already confirmed having played mage/rogue/warrior back then:

Or, perhaps they know what the game was too? Look, you don't have to like what it was. I'm not sitting here saying that some of the changes weren't great that happened in BC. I actually think Burning Crusade was my favorite version of the game, but that's not what Classic is. Making an "authentic experience" and then changing things drastically because the masses don't understand what that means is a terrible idea. You'd have less of an argument from people if you simply advocated for a "Remastered WoW" server and not attempt to lobby something that you obviously don't like or want into something you do. This isn't what the Nost team or community wanted. This isn't what we signed the petition for. This isn't what tons of old members of the WoW community pleaded for. They asked for Pre-BC and that's what Ion has assured is coming.

[Nitros14]

Yes, I understand that's how it was. I just don't find it reason enough to keep it.

That design fundamentally determined the nature of the game. If we change that we're looking for WoW 2, not WoW Classic.

[Wiedzemir]

Reading comprehension being a challenge for you does not entitle you to creatively re-interpret my comments. I wrote what I wrote. You are the one who fails to understand those comments written in plain English and takes offence when called out on strawmanning.

Yeah, I dunno. Me hard read. However, ...

Because I want to play the original world with the original content, before they ruined it with Cataclysm, "level flow" railroading and shitty quest chains.

...looks a lot like ... strawmanning to me ... ah!?
There is nothing to interpret. You want caverns of time with the original world, no WoW classic. And you work hard to bring the modern WoW concepts into the game. It's as simple as that.

[Perkunas]

Yes, I understand that's how it was. I just don't find it reason enough to keep it.

So now we've moved from changing some balance to changing entire design goals. How is that in any way authentic?

[RapBreon]

I defer to you on Guild Wars. I only ever played it to discover the world and steered clear of PvP. Then I abandoned it once all the things it had over WoW had begun popping up in Azeroth.

I spent a depressing amount of hours on that game T.T.

Best PvP of any MMO I've ever played though. That's the sort of thing I doubt I'll ever see again. GW2 didn't quite capture the magic of its forebearer. Better PvE though.

Anyway I'll leave you to it, you're fighting 15 fronts at once. Good luck!

[Wiedzemir]

So now we've moved from changing some balance to changing entire design goals. How is that in any way authentic?

I doubt that people advocating for "balancing classes" (usually so they could raid in their favorite spec and the rest of the game can be damned), QoL or whatever changes, are interested in authenticity. If you read comments, many treat the idea of Classic WoW as sort of a caverns of time dungeon not an independent from the current WoW game.

[Popthehood]

The thread title is false and misleading, a community manager simply spoke of his opinion. Wheres the optometrist at?

[Flarelaine]

Or, perhaps they know what the game was too? Look, you don't have to like what it was. I'm not sitting here saying that some of the changes weren't great that happened in BC. I actually think Burning Crusade was my favorite version of the game, but that's not what Classic is. Making an "authentic experience" and then changing things drastically because the masses don't understand what that means is a terrible idea. You'd have less of an argument from people if you simply advocated for a "Remastered WoW" server and not attempt to lobby something that you obviously don't like or want into something you do. This isn't what the Nost team or community wanted. This isn't what we signed the petition for. This isn't what tons of old members of the WoW community pleaded for. They asked for Pre-BC and that's what Ion has assured is coming.

Oh, I perfectly liked what it was back then. But what I liked about it (and some of that only came into focus when they changed them) was the slow pace. Quest chains sending you back and forth in the world, not railroading you through zones conveniently placed next to each other. Dungeons that you cleared pack by pack, not "gogogo" chainpulling everything. Attunements, even. Drawing admiring whispers when my gnome mage rode a Nightsaber. None of my "authentic Vanilla experience" is tied to actual class choices or class mechanics. And therefore I find it hard to understand why people stick to an admittedly broken balance. I could understand wanting to make sure your preferred spec works - but not wanting to make sure others don't.

[Nitros14]

Oh, I perfectly liked what it was back then. But what I liked about it (and some of that only came into focus when they changed them) was the slow pace. Quest chains sending you back and forth in the world, not railroading you through zones conveniently placed next to each other. Dungeons that you cleared pack by pack, not "gogogo" chainpulling everything. Attunements, even. Drawing admiring whispers when my gnome mage rode a Nightsaber. None of my "authentic Vanilla experience" is tied to actual class choices or class mechanics. And therefore I find it hard to understand why people stick to an admittedly broken balance. I could understand wanting to make sure your preferred spec works - but not wanting to make sure others don't.

For me, it's a desire to experience the raids exactly as they were back then, so as to have an accurate comparison with what people went through back then. That's why I'd prefer the patches to roll out, just as they did back then.

[Flarelaine]

Because I want to play the original world with the original content, before they ruined it with Cataclysm, "level flow" railroading and shitty quest chains.

...looks a lot like ... strawmanning to me ... ah!?
There is nothing to interpret. You want caverns of time with the original world, no WoW classic. And you work hard to bring the modern WoW concepts into the game. It's as simple as that.

Oh, I get it now. You don't actually know what strawmanning means! Well, let me explain. It is when I state something, then you claim I stated something else and go on to answer that arbitrarily made-up claim.

Such as what you did right above.

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So now we've moved from changing some balance to changing entire design goals. How is that in any way authentic?

I have already outlined how authenticity lies elsewhere for me.

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I spent a depressing amount of hours on that game T.T.

Best PvP of any MMO I've ever played though. That's the sort of thing I doubt I'll ever see again. GW2 didn't quite capture the magic of its forebearer. Better PvE though.

Anyway I'll leave you to it, you're fighting 15 fronts at once. Good luck!

Thank you!

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For me, it's a desire to experience the raids exactly as they were back then, so as to have an accurate comparison with what people went through back then. That's why I'd prefer the patches to roll out, just as they did back then.

Now on that we are in agreement. I'm definitely against starting with the 1.12 bundle and believe we should progress through the raids with a staggered release.

Admittedly, I have few memories of actual Vanilla raiding - my guild was too small for 40 so we only did the 20-man raids - but what I still remember is exhilarating joy on a first kill. And that still takes challenge, so I'm not advocating for trivialised raid encounters, just a slight leveling of the playing field. I don't even want equal dps output for hybrids, just one where player input can make the difference.