So Alliance lost the Nightborne beacuse Tyrande was a dick?

[Steampunkette]

Slightly off topic, but, playing both factions myself, honestly, the Horde has a much tighter sense of unity, brought together by hardship, etc, etc. (though they're definitely more fractured in recent history than in the past).. whereas the Alliance is pretty much simply an Alliance against the Horde. That's pretty much their sole unifying thing.

Pretty much this.

The Alliance is a bunch of long-time allies who have been trade partners and neighbors since the Curse of Flesh hit them, their Elf-Friends from across the sea who helped them fight against the Orcs, some Space Goats who fought Orcs on another planet, and Wolfmen who were so pissed off the humans didn't genocide all the baby orcs that they built a wall to lock themselves away from the world. (You could also argue that more recently the Worgen are big on Forsaken fighting but the point remains)

Humans/Dwarves/Gnomes have their Titanbond thing going on, historically speaking, but everyone else is "Oh. You fight orcs? We fight orcs. Let's fight orcs, together!"

Where the Horde are refugee conquerors, refugee elves, refugee undead, refugee goblins, refugee tauren... The Horde is all about people banding together to help stay alive, while the Alliance is all banded together to kill them.

And now with the Allied Races we've got Refugee Elves with the Alliance. Refugee Elves who are Refugees -from- the Refugee Elves!

The Nightborn joining the Horde are the least "Refugee" of all of the Horde's races. But even they're recovering from being nearly destroyed by the Legion and seeking alliances with other races to survive.

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The blood elves didn't exist when the War of the Ancients was happening, firstly, because their factions were the same. The Night Elves because High Elves and then Blood Elves after the War of the Ancients, some Blood Elves may have even been there.

Secondly, Hyjal? The High Elves were literally there in WCIII as part of the Alliance, are you serious?

Shhhhhhh! You can't use logic like that with Hitei! She's literally excluding -everything- that happened before the Sin'dorei changed their name and eye-color 'cause that's the moment they pop into being as a "New Race", so everything before that doesn't count.

Nevermind that they helped save the world in The Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm, Mists of Pandaria, Warlords of Draenor, and Legion! She wants discrete concrete examples of when they saved the world all on their lonesome!

[Steampunkette]

The thing is that Liadrin is telling Thalyssra that they did nothing while we were fighting to protect Azeroth. That is an absolute lie. Night Elves played a major in saving Azeroth time to time.

Lets be honest, the reason Thalyssra wanted Horde was because she wants no limitation in magic and she hates religious attitudes. Night Elves disgust her since they live in forests and have strong connection with the wild life. An arrogant race who are much into luxurious lives can't tolerate these kind of things. Tyrande being mean is just excuse and nothing more.

It's not "hates religious attitudes". It's seclusion. Cloistering as a term isn't just about religion, it's used colloquially (albeit rarely) to refer to a shut-in lifestyle where one is disconnected from what's going on around them.

She literally says that her people were walled off once and she doesn't want it to happen, again.

[Steampunkette]

Not hate but probably something that she really doesn't like and not fond of it and have no interest in it, like the other arcane addicted mages, they detest religious attitudes since they always bring limitations in their use of magic.

It's arguable, though the evidence for it is minimal, sure.

[Hitei]

The blood elves didn't exist when the War of the Ancients was happening, firstly, because their factions were the same. The Night Elves because High Elves and then Blood Elves after the War of the Ancients, some Blood Elves may have even been there.

Secondly, Hyjal? The High Elves were literally there in WCIII as part of the Alliance, are you serious?

Which are not addicted to anything and, being from Feralas, at least mostly the same culturally.

Them existing or not existing doesn't matter. The point is that the Night Elves have been fighting to keep the world safe for literally thousands of years.

A tiny fraction of High Elves were there, while the Night Elves and their leaders fought to defend the the mountain, equal in number (or greater) than the entire WCIII Alliance forces there.

lol, "being from Feralas". They were Azshara's elite Highborne mages. They are about as close to Nightborne as you can possibly get without being Nightborne, and were more responsible for the sundering and War of the Ancients, but were still accepted back in.

[Steampunkette]

One more note: "Elune's Wisdom" as relates to Tyrande going away might not refer to the recent events, but to Tyrande choosing to leave Suramar during the War of the Ancients in the first place. Bear in mind that Thalyssra, Silgryn, and the other Nightborn Revolutionaries didn't decide to put up the shield, 10,000 years before: Elisande did.

It's another one of those situations where the blame for the actions of the leader who has been deposed are placed on the people who deposed that leader.

[Kraddark]

Adding blood elves to the horde was already a stretch. At least they had history to pull from. They really struggled finding a way to add nightborne.

[Hitei]

Shhhhhhh! You can't use logic like that with Hitei! She's literally excluding -everything- that happened before the Sin'dorei changed their name and eye-color 'cause that's the moment they pop into being as a "New Race", so everything before that doesn't count.

Nevermind that they helped save the world in The Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm, Mists of Pandaria, Warlords of Draenor, and Legion! She wants discrete concrete examples of when they saved the world all on their lonesome!

The Burning Crusade? You mean the expansion where a large portion of the Blood Elves were working for the Legion and nearly brought Kil'Jaeden back into the world?

Every race fights partially in any conflict the Alliance and Horde fight. What a dumb excuse for the Blood Elves doing shit all to "save the world". Liadrin is talking out of her ass and the Night Elves have done more to fight for the world than the Blood Elves could ever even dream of.

[Doffen]

New emotes from Nightborne female:

Tyrande still looks good after all these years. Know if she's seeing anyone?

I met this kal'dorei who told me my dress was the pinnacle of fashion... 10,000 years ago. Ouch! Those night elves really know how to throw shade!

Night elves? More like country elves!

Lmao. Blizz is stretching it

[Steampunkette]

The Burning Crusade? You mean the expansion where a large portion of the Blood Elves were working for the Legion and nearly brought Kil'Jaeden back into the world?

Every race fights partially in any conflict the Alliance and Horde fight. What a dumb excuse for the Blood Elves doing shit all to "save the world". Liadrin is talking out of her ass and the Night Elves have done more to fight for the world than the Blood Elves could ever even dream of.

The Cult of the Damned is entirely humans, plus Arthas is human. Ergo humans were fighting against themselves and a major portion of their race and their biggest Lore characters were a huge part of trying to destroy the world with the Scourge.

Shit... It's almost like you shouldn't blame an entire people for the actions of part of their people, particularly if they fight against the evils their own race enacts.

WEIRD.

The rest of your argument has been to pile up ancient history and compare it to modern history and act like modern history doesn't matter, while demanding that a race that only exists in modern history have it's ancient history presented to show it be equal. Your goalposts are so far away that flat earthers argue they don't exist.

[Hitei]

The rest of your argument has been to pile up ancient history and compare it to modern history and act like modern history doesn't matter, while demanding that a race that only exists in modern history have it's ancient history presented to show it be equal. Your goalposts are so far away that flat earthers argue they don't exist.

Wow, it's almost like fighting for thousands of years to keep the world safe is a bigger commitment to fighting than sending a small force to help other people fight for a decade.

But no, you're right. The Blood Elves are the ones saving the world and the Night Elves are lazy cowards who just hide in trees!

[Doffen]

Seems the Nightborne females like Tyrande ... in a way!

Yes

You should read all the new emotes and shit from the allied races. Hilarious.

Tauren female: Brrrrr, it's cold in here. In the mood for some ice cream?

(Okay off topic)

[Steampunkette]

It does refer since she says that she wants the legion defeated and Nightwell destroyed and then she says beyond that we will see what Elune's wisdom will guide us. Also we are talking about the leaders here. Thalyssra existed back in WotA as we saw in the cinematic. She didn't join the rebellion and she stayed with Elisande and supported her for 10k years but when she noticed that Elisande wants to remove the shield and join the Legion, she tried to assassinate her but failed. She didn't care at all to the other Night Elves outside of the shield and her first interaction with a Night Elf was we are the masters of the arcane, night elf. We can handle a tree.

Yeah, Thalyssra existed in the WotA and stayed in the city.

That doesn't mean she was all "YEAH! Let's seal ourselves off! I'm 100% in agreement with your decision, Elisande!" She could have stayed out of duty/responsibility/loyalty while still disagreeing with the decision and arguing vocally against it. We're not shown any of the discussion or decision around the shield going up aside from it happening.

There's also the question of protection. While some members of Suramar left to go fight the war, there were a shitton of civilians who needed defending, and while the shield could've come down at any time after the WotA ended (again we're not shown the logic behind that) the decision to put it up in the first place might've been appropriate...

And yeah, haughty elves being hoity toity about plants is a thing? I dunno what point you're trying to make, there...

[Steampunkette]

Wow, it's almost like fighting for thousands of years to keep the world safe is a bigger commitment to fighting than sending a small force to help other people fight for a decade.

But no, you're right. The Blood Elves are the ones saving the world and the Night Elves are lazy cowards who just hide in trees!

I'm sorry... What threats for thousands of years? After the WotA isn't it just the War of the Shifting Sands that had any kind of relevance to anything? The High Elves were still part of the Night Elf Empire during the Satyr Wars and the Curse of the Worgen, but after they got banished there was just Shifting Sands and a whole bunch of "Nothing Else" over on Kalimdor 'til WC3.

Meanwhile the Helves were fighting off the rise of the Troll Empire with Arathor, dealing with Orc incursions as part of the Alliance of Lordaeron, and heading to Outland to destroy a massive Demonic Threat against the world.

So yeah. The Nelves did a whole lot of nothing for about 8,700 years, fought a war, then did nothing for another 1,300 years or so. Meanwhile the Helves, and their Belven descendants, founded a nation, fought trolls, allied with humans, battled orcs, and chased Demons to another planet to kick their asses, there, before fighting a nigh hopeless war against death itself before the Nelves deigned to intervene.

You talk big shit about the Nelves "Defending the World for Thousands of Years" but in reality they've done very little since the Sundering, and even less since they kicked out the High Elves who went on to -actively- make a difference in the world rather than sitting in their dens and trees, snoozing. It wasn't until death knocked on their doors that they woke up their sleepyboys and went on the warpath.

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my point is that she doesn't care about the Night Elves at all. If she was forced to stay in shield then after 10k years she would at least show some regret to them. You say that many went to war and some stayed in Suramar. You might be right but the chronicles says something else. It is mentioned that they did not help the rebellion in WotA. Thalyssra was also among them since she was the first arcanist and Tyrande knew her. In WotA we have Ravencrest and Darth'remar who later sided with the rebellion even though they were under the command of Azshara. They decided to fight while Nightborne decided to hide. And even after the war the Nightborne kept the shield and had a peaceful life for 10k years. Even when Legion attacked again or cataclysm hit, they ignored the world.

Thalyssra said that she wants the Nightborne to become Azeroth's defenders and not conquers, yet she sided with one faction and wants to have a place in their conquest of Azeroth. Tyrande was right not to trust them. Now that they have become their city and Thalyssra is now at the power, they are showing their true color. If they really wanted to do something good for Azeroth, they wouldn't join any faction and rather worked with Kirin'tor or any neutral groups. They simply have goals and they sided with one to achieve them for their selfish reasons.

I disagree... On several points.

Firstly that the Horde wants to conquer the world. The Horde was formed of Refugees who ran away from warfare in the Eastern Kingdoms. Thrall didn't found Durotar with the intent to build up a big power base, turn around, and conquer the humans. He was trying to make a place where he and his people could live in peace. The orcs who followed him knew that. Those who didn't agree turned to other paths, instead.

Similarly, the Darkspear Trolls were trying to get away from the endless fighting, the sinking of their islands, and their dark history. They fled to Kalimdor to start a new life. The Tauren were also a peaceful people who were fleeing from Centaur Marauders who joined Thrall because they valued his peace, his will. Sylvanas and the Forsaken joined the Horde because they knew the humans would come after them (They tried to join the Alliance, but were denied a place even though they were the remnants of Lordaeron, an Alliance kingdom), which is a position of defensive peace. Even the Belves joined out of peaceful intentions because they feared the humans would finish the job they started when Garithos declared the entire race traitors.

The Kirin'tor also aren't neutral. Dalaran joined the Alliance under Jaina Proudmoore. There simply aren't any powerful neutral groups left that aren't the Class Orders, and even they tend to be heavily biased one way or the other.

No, their choice was either to join the Horde or Alliance, or try to remain neutral as the two sides went to war. And they were "Neutral" when the Night Elves fought against Azshara and you've seen where -that- got them.

And yeah. She doesn't care about the Night Elves except for the part where she was initially intending to join her ancient kin before their hostility pushed her away... >.>

Now all of this said: I still think it's super weak that she joined the Horde based on how Tyrande treated her and her people. I'm just poking holes in the argument you've provided.

[Doffen]

Hostility and being sceptical is 2 very different things. Wich is why the story for NB to Horde is now weaker than expecting. If the Nelves didn't help at all then it would be very different, but thats not the case is it.

[Steampunkette]

The Highborne didn't want to give up on their usage for magic. They were exiled as they wanted it and went to EK and created Silvermoon and also the Sunwell. Their reckless use of magic caused trouble and demons started to appear and then they decided to create the guardians. Sargeras used the guardian Medivh and created the dark portal, The scourge later used to Sunwell to resurrect Kel'Thuzad. They brought this upon their own selves.

Most of the fights they had were to protect their own selves not necessarily Azeroth. But Night Elves fought the Legion and the old gods in emerald dream. These two forces always seek to destroy all life on Azeroth. The Amani trolls can't be considered a threat for Azeroth. The fight between the High Elves and the Trolls was because of the territory gain.

Other than the Satyr war and the war of the shifting sands, the Night Elves didn't have any problem in Kalimdor because it was safe. The High Elves created the trouble for themselves because of the usage of magic and had to deal with it. You can't say that Night Elves were cowards and High Elves were fighters because of that.

If we're gonna talk about the Helves creating the Sunwell and bringing about Demons and shit then we should talk about the Nelves bringing the Demons to Azeroth in the first place. Which means their wars against the Demons and Satyrs in the Emerald Dream are something "They brought on their own selves"

By moving these goalposts you're undermining your own position, Ajidehak. They did fight against the Old Gods in there, though, which is totes cool.

Though I would argue that the Amani, and indeed all of the old troll empires, were a threat to Azeroth back in the time of the Arathorian Empire before the Seven Kingdoms, since they were strong enough to wage some -serious- wars and threaten a big chunk of the world with conquest. And since they were cannibals, there would be no "Slave Revolt" where the humans, elves, dwarves, and gnomes would be able to rise up and fight off their oppressors.

They'd be poop.

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What I basically understood from your view is that: you should either join Horde or Alliance. You have no third option. I really don't think it that way. There are a lot of neutrality in the game. Many NPCs are demonstrating this. Khadgar for example says that Azeroth is dying and I thought with the defeat of the Legion the Alliance and Horde would come to peace and work to save Azeroth. The Kirin tor used to be Alliance but at the moment it is pretty much on neither of the sides. The archmages of Dalaran voted to stay neutral despite Jaina's will and she left the city. The Nightborne could choose to not join either of the factions. It wasn't a must.

Individuals can be neutral. Khadgar, for example, can be neutral. Small groups like Furbolg in different areas or Centaurs in Kalimdor, yeah. But nations? Not so much.

Particularly nations which have -power- in the world. With the amount of mana and arcane energy flowing through Suramar, there's no way they wouldn't be attacked by one side or the other looking for the advantage.

And Dalaran is part of the Alliance. They allowed the Horde to enter the city over Jaina's objections, sure, but not because they're neutral or aren't members of the Alliance. It was determined that the threat of the Legion was big enough to work together, kind of like how both sides went to the Broken Shore in a temporary peace to fight against the Legion (Which ended with Vol'jin and Varian both dying.)

A Cease-Fire is not an alliance, it's just a cease-fire.

[Hitei]

I'm sorry... What threats for thousands of years? After the WotA isn't it just the War of the Shifting Sands that had any kind of relevance to anything? The High Elves were still part of the Night Elf Empire during the Satyr Wars and the Curse of the Worgen, but after they got banished there was just Shifting Sands and a whole bunch of "Nothing Else" over on Kalimdor 'til WC3.

Meanwhile the Helves were fighting off the rise of the Troll Empire with Arathor, dealing with Orc incursions as part of the Alliance of Lordaeron, and heading to Outland to destroy a massive Demonic Threat against the world.

So yeah. The Nelves did a whole lot of nothing for about 8,700 years, fought a war, then did nothing for another 1,300 years or so. Meanwhile the Helves, and their Belven descendants, founded a nation, fought trolls, allied with humans, battled orcs, and chased Demons to another planet to kick their asses, there, before fighting a nigh hopeless war against death itself before the Nelves deigned to intervene.

You talk big shit about the Nelves "Defending the World for Thousands of Years" but in reality they've done very little since the Sundering, and even less since they kicked out the High Elves who went on to -actively- make a difference in the world rather than sitting in their dens and trees, snoozing. It wasn't until death knocked on their doors that they woke up their sleepyboys and went on the warpath.

First. Please actually read the lore that you even know the difference between a High Elf and Highborne before trying to argue who did what.

Second, the demons didn't just vanish off the face of the earth, hence why the War of the Satyr happened. The Night Elves continuously fought against demonic forces left on Azeroth after the sundering.


The High Elves weren't "fighting off the rise of the troll empire". They were under direct attack from the Amani and asked the Arathi for help. And they sure as fuck didn't go to Outland to destroy a demonic threat, they ran away with Illidan specifically to FLEE the Legion, and then joined up with the demons when it became clear they were stronger.

The Night Elves fought off the burning Legion, Fought of the forces of C'thun, Fought off the burning Legion long before the High Elves did anything, and continued to fight while 95% of the High Elves stayed hidden in Quel'thalas until Arthas kicked down their front door and killed nearly all of them. They haven't done shit beyond sending small parties of mages to help other people fight minor conflicts.

How anyone could honestly think the Blood Elves have fought for the world as much as the Night Elves is beyond me. But I suppose that's about the logic I expect from the guy who goes through insane mental gymnastics to pretend Sylvanas does nothing wrong.

[Steampunkette]

First. Please actually read the lore that you even know the difference between a High Elf and Highborne before trying to argue who did what.

Second, the demons didn't just vanish off the face of the earth, hence why the War of the Satyr happened. The Night Elves continuously fought against demonic forces left on Azeroth after the sundering.


The High Elves weren't "fighting off the rise of the troll empire". They were under direct attack from the Amani and asked the Arathi for help. And they sure as fuck didn't go to Outland to destroy a demonic threat, they ran away with Illidan specifically to FLEE the Legion, and then joined up with the demons when it became clear they were stronger.

The Night Elves fought off the burning Legion, Fought of the forces of C'thun, Fought off the burning Legion long before the High Elves did anything, and continued to fight while 95% of the High Elves stayed hidden in Quel'thalas until Arthas kicked down their front door and killed nearly all of them. They haven't done shit beyond sending small parties of mages to help other people fight minor conflicts.

How anyone could honestly think the Blood Elves have fought for the world as much as the Night Elves is beyond me. But I suppose that's about the logic I expect from the guy who goes through insane mental gymnastics to pretend Sylvanas does nothing wrong.

Warcraft 2, Hitei. Not 3. You know, when the High Elves went with the Alliance into Outland to go fight against the Orcs and their Demon Masters? Gosh. At LEAST play the games the lore is in. I mean, shit, why do you think Alleria, a High Elf, got stuck for 1,000 years with the Army of the Light? Pfft.

And the High Elves are Highborn because they're descendants. The only reason Blood Elves are short is -because- they got banished, fucked off to the other side of the planet, and built their own Magicwell with Blackjack and Hookers. Either the actions of their ancestors matter, or the actions of the Nelven ancestors don't. Though, honestly, Nelves and Helves are the same thing, or were, until the Sunwell's magic set in enough to actually change them into short blondes.

See? This is what I mean when I talk about moving the Goalposts and demanding a bunch of bullshit be proven. You're piling on the Kal'dorei ancient history from when they were Quel'dorei ('Cause remember, Suramar was a big rich city not some little forest dwelling gathering of druids so Tyrande is, or was Quel'dorei before she renamed herself Kal'dorei because it wasn't so much a biological distinction as a social one) and then whining when I use that as a basis to discuss the Quel'dorei prior to the advent of the Sin'dorei.

But I guess this is the logic I'm supposed to get from a person who thinks the Alliance are angels who do no wrong and whose mental gymnastics are, clearly, Olympic level.

Also, I'm a woman. You were a part of the conversation where that fact came up, repeatedly. Don't misgender me further.

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What I'm saying is that what Liadrin says "Night Elves weren't doing anything and we were saving Azeroth" is nonsense. Without Night Elves Azeroth was finished already. And by Night Elves I am talking about the current ones and not the one before the WotA. I mean Tyrande, Malfurion druids, sentinels etc. The Night Elves who summoned the Legion were the Highborne who later became Naga, High Elves, Blood Elves. We are talking about the Night Elves who sleep in dens according to Liadrin.

We still have the pandaren of Pandaria and they are not part of any faction. There is a third choice.

I get the Nelves you're talking about, Ajidehak. And sure, they've done shit. Thousands of years ago they fought off threats that no one in the Eastern Kingdoms knows shit about, or at least should unless the Nelves made their cultural history available to everyone? I mean, it's not like they've got vast libraries anywhere, since most of their acts seem to just be things people remember rather than write down. Meanwhile they didn't fight against the Orcs in WC 1, or in WC 2, or go fight the Legion on Outland in WC2, and only joined the war against the Scourge in WC3 when the scourge landed on Kalimdor. Liadrin might be a couple of hundred years old, but the High Elves of Silvermoon weren't, by and large, 10,000 year old elves who remembered everything that ever happened everywhere in the world.

Both the Nelves and the Belves were cut off from the opposite sides of the world. There's little reason the Belves would even know about the War of the Shifting Sands at all, since by the time the Nelves joined the Alliance and had someone to talk to about that war, the Belves were on the outs. Similarly, the Nelves were in peace on Kalimdor, and had no knowledge of the Orc Invasions or the attack on Outland 'til years later.

I'm not saying either side is -actually- cowards or brave or whatever. I'm saying they're both ignorant and the representation of the Nelves as Saviors and the Belves as Craven Cowards is, at best, inaccurate.

Pandaria is a good example, though. I'll give you that!

[Dispraise]

On the one hand, my Night Elf druid should be furious. She spent weeks aiding them, risking her own life time after time to protect and save them from the legion, scouring Suramar for mana to keep them sane, bringing about their very salvation through the arcan'dor by feeding it and helping to bring it into balance. After all of that, they side with her enemies, because Tyrande was mean and it hurt their precious feelings.

On the other hand, I'm glad they didn't go Alliance. I think they are a much better fit overall, and bring a lot more value to the Horde than they would have to the Alliance.

I just wish I had only done the Suramar questline on Horde, and skipped it on my Alliance characters altogether. It's a complete slap in the face to them.

[Deathpath]

It seems a lot of people in this thread don't understand basic politics. Getting buddy buddy with the right people can sway an entire faction/nation. Not only was Liadrin buttering up the soon to be faction leaders of the nightborne, but Tyrande was rubbing the same people the wrong way. Both factions dedicated the exact same amount of resources towards the rebellion war effort. Meaning that it came down to the last few ass kissing points to sway the nightborne.

Not to mention the similarities the blood elves share with the nightborne, compared to the general enmity the night elves have towards the nightborne. Why would they join an alliance that has a large and influential faction within that could, and most likely will, oppose them politically? If they join the horde they have an ally from the start that has close connections with the current warchief.

[Baroclinic]

Ok, so think hard and you will find it hard not to hate the Nightborn. The majority of them flat out threw their lot in with the legion and they flat out purged the moon guard. They're kinda a lot of stuck up jerks. Heck, they actually make the blood elves start look good, I can't imagine any reason the Night Elves would be a single bit interested in anything besides killing as many as possible.