Rift goes P2W in a paid expansion - Boycott the new caches and packs

[Eleccybubb]

So the OP made this on the Reddit as well. Fair enough the more people hearing about this the better I get that.

And low and behold Brasse has come in spouting their nonsense.

Hey all,

Glad you brought the discussion here, and that I can add a bit of extra info.

Packs with Captured Intel are available for a limited time. This will allow some folks to catch up to their friends or get a leg up. The packs are doing very well, showing that many people are happy to have this opportunity.
At the same time that the packs were offered, we also increased the natural drop rate in game for Captured Intel - check out LFR and Expert runs to see the effect.
Already planned for the coming week's update is more increase to Intel drops in game... and remember that the packs are limited time and going away.
Our goal is to offer everyone a faster path to Intel, and for those lacking the time a time-limited opportunity to catch up through investing in the packs. Time is money, and some have more of one than the other.

In all of the panels I have participated in for P2W vs. F2P, the key definition by common agreement (of the audience, not the panelists) has always been that as long as a power-linked item is available for TIME investment in game as well as for direct purchase, it is not P2W.
Time and money are the two currencies in any F2P game. Now, one may prefer a system whereby only time will gain you cool items, but I suspect that players who are woefully short on time may disagree.

In games that also offer a currency exchange system, such as RIFT does, it's entirely possible to never spend a cent of real money and gain even the coolest cosmetic items.

By all means, invest or do not invest in the packs, depending on whether you see value in what we offer on the RIFT store. That is totally fair and up to the individual. ~Brasse

Sorry but if this doesn't scream "thinly veiled advertising" I don't know what else does.

This is even worse than their attempt to do damage control on the other site. Some of those excuses are just disgusting. There is damage control but this is on a whole new level. But to dissect points let's go.

Packs are doing well because the whales and people who praise Rift are throwing their money down. No other reason. And please you made it limited time because you damn well know if it was permanent you wouldn't get away with it.

No let's not pretend you are doing this for the players. You are doing it to make a quick buck just like you did with raid gear and hell even LFR gear this expansion.

Sorry but your personal definition of Pay to Win isn't correct. Let's not pretend it is just to defend what Trion have done here.

You sure as hell make getting those cosmetics a pain in the backside though don't you? To try and entice people into buying them rather than grind.

[Brasse]

Hey Eleccybubb, thanks for reposting my response to the Reddit thread. Saves me time here.

It's unfortunate that you view my responses as "disgusting" because you don't agree with them, but you are totally entitled to your opinions. Meanwhile, the definition of P2W I outlined is not my personal one, it is the one I collected from hosting multiple player feedback panels on P2W vs F2P, as outlined above (PAX S, PAX E, PAX W), and was the definition that the overwhelming majority of the audience agreed with (in excess of 90%).

In the end, every game has different offerings, gameplay, limitations and systems. As players, we have every right to pick and choose the games that best suit our playstyles and personal philosophies. I hope some of you have the opportunity to work for a game developer in future, as there are immense challenges to make a game fun, financially viable and rewarding for players.

Meanwhile, we also continue to collec feedback and opinion in all available communication arenas. We are always listening and taking opinions into consideration, as well as the actions and play choices of the silent majority whom we follow in game.
Speaking of game, I'm heading back in to RIFT now.

Have a great weekend, don't spend it all on forums!
Brasse

[TheEaterofSouls]

im sure it'll be easy to boycott with only 5 players.
Probably a better idea to just move on and play WoW, or FF14, or GW2 or ESO. The only ones i know of that still have a playerbase

[Eleccybubb]

Hey Eleccybubb, thanks for reposting my response to the Reddit thread. Saves me time here.

It's unfortunate that you view my responses as "disgusting" because you don't agree with them, but you are totally entitled to your opinions. Meanwhile, the definition of P2W I outlined is not my personal one, it is the one I collected from hosting multiple player feedback panels on P2W vs F2P, as outlined above (PAX S, PAX E, PAX W), and was the definition that the overwhelming majority of the audience agreed with (in excess of 90%).

In the end, every game has different offerings, gameplay, limitations and systems. As players, we have every right to pick and choose the games that best suit our playstyles and personal philosophies. I hope some of you have the opportunity to work for a game developer in future, as there are immense challenges to make a game fun, financially viable and rewarding for players.

Meanwhile, we also continue to collec feedback and opinion in all available communication arenas. We are always listening and taking opinions into consideration, as well as the actions and play choices of the silent majority whom we follow in game.
Speaking of game, I'm heading back in to RIFT now.

Have a great weekend, don't spend it all on forums!
Brasse

Ah so the "you're not a game developer" line now is it? No let's not pretend this is "for the players". You know damn well it's for lining Trions pockets and your "damage control" really isn't helping here.

So because a bunch of the playerbase who shine your game in the "can do no wrong" light that suddenly makes it true? Not how it works.

If you can purchase the most powerful items directly and get geared faster than someone who doesn't then that is Pay to Win or heavily Pay for Advantage depending on the situation. Stop trying to spin this as a positive thing. You are not helping the game by doing so at all. The ironic part here is that Trion stated there would never be any P2W/P2A in Rift and well there has been since Nightmare Tide.

You are clearly ignoring any critique on this which isn't a first for Trion of course but well it's nice to see that people seem to think the devs going back on their word is fine.

Now since it's clear there is no point in even having a discussion with you especially considering the manner you responded to me in I will throw you on ignore. Good day.

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im sure it'll be easy to boycott with only 5 players.
Probably a better idea to just move on and play WoW, or FF14, or GW2 or ESO. The only ones i know of that still have a playerbase

The thing is I want this game to really go back to how it used to be.

I know the chance is very low and probably never going to happen but I still hold onto that glimmer of hope.

Any dev passionate about this surely has to have gone by now sadly.

[Darkdaemon]

Hey Eleccybubb, thanks for reposting my response to the Reddit thread. Saves me time here.

It's unfortunate that you view my responses as "disgusting" because you don't agree with them, but you are totally entitled to your opinions. Meanwhile, the definition of P2W I outlined is not my personal one, it is the one I collected from hosting multiple player feedback panels on P2W vs F2P, as outlined above (PAX S, PAX E, PAX W), and was the definition that the overwhelming majority of the audience agreed with (in excess of 90%).

In the end, every game has different offerings, gameplay, limitations and systems. As players, we have every right to pick and choose the games that best suit our playstyles and personal philosophies. I hope some of you have the opportunity to work for a game developer in future, as there are immense challenges to make a game fun, financially viable and rewarding for players.

Meanwhile, we also continue to collec feedback and opinion in all available communication arenas. We are always listening and taking opinions into consideration, as well as the actions and play choices of the silent majority whom we follow in game.
Speaking of game, I'm heading back in to RIFT now.

Have a great weekend, don't spend it all on forums!
Brasse

It doesn't matter if it's your personal definition of P2W or not. Trion has an official stance on this. You've crossed the lines you set yourself on never selling BiS gear in the Rift Store for real money.

Don't try to divert the narrative and make this about gamer choices. It's about corporate greed and catering to a few over many, and choosing short term profits over long term player trust and retention.

[Brasse]

Aaaand I'm back! It's the weekend so it took some time to gather the Devs on Skype for initial discussions and review. From my RIFT forum post under news and announcements:

Hi all,

Just got back from discussions with Dev on the concerns of players over Collected Intel packs on the RIFT store. It's a weekend, so it takes a bit of time to round folks up for review, but everyone is on board to look at this carefully; we take player feedback very seriously.

We like to try new things. Sometimes they work great, sometimes they don't, and sometimes they need tweaking - we've seen the feedback on the limited time Collected Intel packs and have decided to take the short term action to switch them off for the time being (the holiday packs remain up).

Taking them offline now gives us time to review ALL the feedback, together with in-game data, next week when the Dev team is back in office, and make careful, reasoned decisions.

Please DO continue offering your thoughts, as they are much appreciated! If we can improve the offering or implementation, we will definitely do so.

On a side note, feedback is easiest for us to collect when here on the official forums, although we do try to cast the net as wide as possible when gathering information.

Please consider this the OFFICIAL FEEDBACK THREAD and please keep it constructive. [EDIT - this, meaning the official forum thread[/URL]]
Thank you all!
~ Brasse

[Selah]

Hey Eleccybubb, thanks for reposting my response to the Reddit thread. Saves me time here.

It's unfortunate that you view my responses as "disgusting" because you don't agree with them, but you are totally entitled to your opinions. Meanwhile, the definition of P2W I outlined is not my personal one, it is the one I collected from hosting multiple player feedback panels on P2W vs F2P, as outlined above (PAX S, PAX E, PAX W), and was the definition that the overwhelming majority of the audience agreed with (in excess of 90%).

In the end, every game has different offerings, gameplay, limitations and systems. As players, we have every right to pick and choose the games that best suit our playstyles and personal philosophies. I hope some of you have the opportunity to work for a game developer in future, as there are immense challenges to make a game fun, financially viable and rewarding for players.

Meanwhile, we also continue to collec feedback and opinion in all available communication arenas. We are always listening and taking opinions into consideration, as well as the actions and play choices of the silent majority whom we follow in game.
Speaking of game, I'm heading back in to RIFT now.

Have a great weekend, don't spend it all on forums!
Brasse

Brasse, it's good to see you on here. A place where your team doesn't control where who can post negative feedback.

First off, the Rift team has some serious problems with the game to answer for. Things the team can't seem to be bothered to address. Between the half broken expansion launch, classes being an absolute mess, no class dev replacement, empty content patches, insane and unacceptable grind and RNG, and the inability to communicate honestly with the Rift community, your team has dropped the ball more than should ever be acceptable. Then, when people want to come to your forums and give fair and well earned negative feedback you guys just ban them instead of engaging with them and talking to them.

Since you seem to be missing what we're saying, this payment system is an absolute cancer on the game. A perfect example is the Mystic Archer that just launched. The team couldn't be bothered to actually fix an existing soul so that mages could actually engage in soloing content, so they just made a new one. A soul that didn't need to exist but does because the team is rewarded for just pumping out new souls instead of fixing the existing ones. The deep irony is they couldn't even be bothered to treat it properly, it very much is a crappy soul the team popped out to fix their problem. They couldn't have been even bothered to do the traditional lore write-up and new soul icon for it.

Tell me Brasse, and I want an honest answer. Are mages so hard to balance and work with that between Arbiter, Frostkeeper, Cholormancer, Harbinger, Necromancer, Elementalist, Archon, their 427 talents in their trees, however many root abilities, masteries, legendary abilities, and hybrids, that your team couldn't find and make a viable solo spec for Mages? Just between Harbinger, Frostkeeper, and Arbiter your team should've been able to make a solo spec. Instead you guys just pumped out a new one.

Also, don't sit there and talk about how hard it is to monetize a game. There are plenty of successful MMOs on the market, despite their differences they share one common theme. They take pride in their products and actually tend to problems with the game and the community. They don't let a dev go and then just leave the community unanswered as to who is taking up the reigns. They don't let expansion launches go so horribly for so long and blame the community. They don't just keep pumping out new classes when their other ones are more than obviously broken. They don't just push one type of content in their updates. Most importantly, they value their player's time and money and actually treat them with respect. None of this has been true for your team since halfway through NMT at least.

[Kyanion]

Haha holy shit "In all of the panels I have participated in for P2W vs. F2P, the key definition by common agreement (of the audience, not the panelists) has always been that as long as a power-linked item is available for TIME investment in game as well as for direct purchase, it is not P2W."

Are you kidding me?? P2W or P2A means those people get the items before people put in the time in the raid to get them. Holy hell. It would be like me turning around in WoW and directly buying tier items before even downing the damn boss. This sounds like BioWare's tiny kid brother trying to get in on the fleecing of the stupid...err I mean their playerbase.

[Eleccybubb]

Haha holy shit "In all of the panels I have participated in for P2W vs. F2P, the key definition by common agreement (of the audience, not the panelists) has always been that as long as a power-linked item is available for TIME investment in game as well as for direct purchase, it is not P2W."

Are you kidding me?? P2W or P2A means those people get the items before people put in the time in the raid to get them. Holy hell. It would be like me turning around in WoW and directly buying tier items before even downing the damn boss. This sounds like BioWare's tiny kid brother trying to get in on the fleecing of the stupid...err I mean their playerbase.

Yep. But since apparently I'm being told it's being temporarily removed I guarantee you in 4.4 if a new raid is out they will throw captured intel back in citing "it's not bis anymore" or some nonsense.

[Kyanion]

This. I did not know it was still going.

Oh don't worry, I don't think it will last long with shit like this.

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Yep. But since apparently I'm being told it's being temporarily removed I guarantee you in 4.4 if a new raid is out they will throw captured intel back in citing "it's not bis anymore" or some nonsense.

hah temporarily removed, also sounds like EA. So who is the shill Brasse? I thought they were going to play the game and yet 90 mins later they come back on with a stance that has been reversed. I thought they got all this great feedback from panels hahaha.

[Eleccybubb]

Oh don't worry, I don't think it will last long with shit like this.

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hah temporarily removed, also sounds like EA. So who is the shill Brasse? I thought they were going to play the game and yet 90 mins later they come back on with a stance that has been reversed. I thought they got all this great feedback from panels hahaha.

I'll tell you exactly what happened.

Rift tried to go full on P2W/P2A and got caught out. (Although they've been doing that since Nightmare Tide)

Now they are trying to save face by temporarily removing it.

Simple as that. They knew exactly what this would cause and if they think this kind of "publicity" alongside some of the CMs/players attitude is good for the game then that's just laughable at best.

[Kyanion]

I'll tell you exactly what happened.

Rift tried to go full on P2W/P2A and got caught out. (Although they've been doing that since Nightmare Tide)

Now they are trying to save face by temporarily removing it.

Simple as that. They knew exactly what this would cause and if they think this kind of "publicity" alongside some of the CMs/players attitude is good for the game then that's just laughable at best.

Yeah too bad they probably managed to sell some of these to some whales and the backlash will be fairly minor (mostly because their playerbase is crap). I will never touch a Trion game again because of their shady practices. The few White Knights that are left will of course rush to defend their precious game but it is just a much smaller amount of noise compared to when Star Wars first came out and the rabid fanboys rushed to defend that game (and we all know how that one turned out).

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I am still really curious about these panels. They must have been before all of this EA controversy. I bet those panels and crowd reactions would take a much different turn if they happened today.

[blankfaced]

Meh the game has been P2W for years. If you still play it and expect anything different....there's this old saying about being fooled twice.

[Slipmat]

P2W or P2A means those people get the items before people put in the time in the raid to get them. Holy hell. It would be like me turning around in WoW and directly buying tier items before even downing the damn boss

Let me throw this hypothetical question at you then, suppose i keep buying WoW tokens for real money, selling them for gold and build up a large amount of gold, then pay off high level Guilds to run me through the latest WoW raid, say, Heroic as Mythic is still too 'new'

I get different Guilds to keep running me through Heroic to bypass weekly lockouts and soon i'm in full heroic gear, would you call that P2W?

[Kyanion]

Let me throw this hypothetical question at you then, suppose i keep buying WoW tokens for real money, selling them for gold and build up a large amount of gold, then pay off high level Guilds to run me through the latest WoW raid, say, Heroic as Mythic is still too 'new'

I get different Guilds to keep running me through Heroic to bypass weekly lockouts and soon i'm in full heroic gear, would you call that P2W?

No, because you are not buying the items directly from Blizzard. You can spin it how you like there is a BIG freaking difference. Also, in your warped hypothetical you are forgetting one thing. People that bought these items were able to bypass CAPS on how much of this currency you could earn. That would be like if there was a cap on the amount of gold you could earn in a day of playing WoW but by buying it from Blizz you were able to get more gold in a day than anyone that did not pay for it.

Also, let's not forget you are spending 20 bucks for like 180k gold. Considering the amount of runs you'd need to buy to fully deck out in mythic gear (yes I know your hypothetical said Heroic but that isn't the highest end), achievements, mounts and so on...well let's just say I don't think you'd be able to get enough gold to afford it before you run into the limit of tokens Blizz lets you sell. I don't remember what that cap is anymore but it really isn't important.

No matter what happens in your scenario the player still has to find this group to take them through the runs and it also does not fully guarantee them of the specific items they'd want anyways.

[Slipmat]

because you are not buying the items directly from Blizzard

So you're saying it's fine, all good if someone throws money around in WoW to buy raid runs and get geared up in the best of gear (eventually when Guilds have Mythic Antorus on farm) because they're not buying the gear from Blizzard? really?

Seems Blizzard doesn't agree with you and will happily take action on your account.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...ns-in-antorus/

[Dragoonhk]

So you're saying it's fine, all good if someone throws money around in WoW to buy raid runs and get geared up in the best of gear (eventually when Guilds have Mythic Antorus on farm) because they're not buying the gear from Blizzard? really?

Seems Blizzard doesn't agree with you and will happily take action on your account.

Really.

This is precisely the issue with this vocal minority of white knights. You did not ask him about blizzard's terms of service you asked him in a hypothetical about how he feels about being able to purchase something, sell for gold, and get carries from it. He clearly explains the difference in the rest of his post yet you chose to cherry pick the first sentence. Chances are you asked him this loaded question so that you could copy pasta that link to try and prove an irrelevant point. You REALLY showed him! Really really really!

This type of bad faith debate tactics have been a huge issue in rift. Slipmat and others like him are not even maxed level, do not play and strive for the best in slot items, and are just trolls in dialogue on how rift should change to improve. Instead they rely on their "guts" and "years of experience" to justify perspective involving unethical pay to win processes among a plethora of other items from the past.

Back on to the real topic- It was good that trion took down the direct purchase currency, but the currency is still available in a 100$ pack, which is hiding as a pack like a mount and some loyalty points or something. What is worse is this currency can be directly used to purchase ~5 pieces of gear which come in 5 types- the most common having tank stats versus the epic or relic dps items. It has been openly stated that it is common to get the less desirable tank items, which the "epic or "relic" dps items drop less frequently. This is not only direct pay to win but also encourages the gambling that the EA community just got up in arms about and made reddit history. There is no guarantee you will ever get the best in slot items. So its the perfect environment where victims will be able to pay 100$ continuously in hopes for the best in slot item.

The boxes are the only method to buy these 5 pieces of gear with varying stats. Just to be fair, they are purchasable for roughly a third of the weekly cap of earned in game currency. However the pay to win boxes also bypass that cap. It really is the perfect predatory storm.

[Darkdaemon]

Let me throw this hypothetical question at you then, suppose i keep buying WoW tokens for real money, selling them for gold and build up a large amount of gold, then pay off high level Guilds to run me through the latest WoW raid, say, Heroic as Mythic is still too 'new'

I get different Guilds to keep running me through Heroic to bypass weekly lockouts and soon i'm in full heroic gear, would you call that P2W?

How have you not been removed from the community ambassador program and banned yet? Your shrilling actually puts Trion in an even worse light. All you do is troll and try to instigate. Apparently, hundreds of upvotes and supporting comments across multiple platforms, within a few short days, are a tiny vocal few to you

Allow me to correct your pathetic hypothetical. Suppose I send the guild leader of a high level guild a bunch of tokens every week. Since I actually know how boss lockouts work in Legion and I'm not a dumb shrill throwing up straw man arguments, I get loot from every boss with a single clear and further clears yield no loot. Soon, I'm in full heroic over multiple weeks, as quickly as a normal raider would be. In the progress, I've destroyed any reputation I've had, spent hundreds of bucks and actually learned a few skills, because even lobsters shy away from fire.

Now in Rift, these caches bypassed normal restrictions. Considering each accessory costs 55k Intel to fully upgrade and someone that buys Intel caches off CD can get 182k plus whatever they normally earn, they can easily get accessories 4 times or more faster than people actually playing.

Perhaps before you start shrilling and using your terrible comparisons to things that exist only in your head (and how does a bad business practice from one company justify another?), you should actually take a few hours to read posts and Google how lockouts work. Or better yet, just stay silent.

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So you're saying it's fine, all good if someone throws money around in WoW to buy raid runs and get geared up in the best of gear (eventually when Guilds have Mythic Antorus on farm) because they're not buying the gear from Blizzard? really?

Seems Blizzard doesn't agree with you and will happily take action on your account.

Oh look, your posts on the Intel cache feedback thread are gone. Apparently, not even Trion agrees with you. Go shrill for a game where the company actually likes you.

[Selah]

So you're saying it's fine, all good if someone throws money around in WoW to buy raid runs and get geared up in the best of gear (eventually when Guilds have Mythic Antorus on farm) because they're not buying the gear from Blizzard? really?

Seems Blizzard doesn't agree with you and will happily take action on your account.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...ns-in-antorus/

Wow, look, another dishonest comment from Slipmat. Who is surprised? Anyone? At all? Slippy buddy, you need to learn to read a bit.
"These violations include selling raid clears for real money," not gold like your terrible hypothetical situation. Their talking about giving a guild leader cash directly.

All you did with that link is show that Blizzard has far higher standards than Trion when it comes to selling gear and runs.

Of course, none of this actually matters though, because you're now talking about WoW and not Rift when the conversation is solely about Rift and what's acceptable in that game.

Again though, here you are harming Rift because you and a few others too afraid to actually criticize the team for poor decisions.

[Darkdaemon]

Again though, here you are harming Rift because you and a few others too afraid to actually criticize the team for poor decisions.

I don't think he's afraid to criticize. He's just here to set people off, troll and instigate conflict.