Why do Vereesa and Alleria hate their own people?

[Daevelian]

There's no indication Arthas was already an undead at that point.




Not the best comparison. Even if Arthas was an undead he'd still be undead human since undeath is a state of existence, not a race. Nightborne aren't Night Elevs.

#stillalive, amirite?

I can't believe i am agreeing with you on something, but you are right. Arthas was not dead nor undead at that point in time. Though my only evidence of this would be the heart quest in Icecrown. Undead do not have functional hearts. Arthas removed his heart after his fight with Illidan when he found that it was holding him back in the fight, finally making his transition from a drained human to undead.

HOWEVER, he will was not entirely his own either. His generation of death knights do not die to become death knights, they give up their humanity and free will in exchange for power. Everything Arthas did to Silvermoon was under orders from a disembodied orc giving directions, just like the rest of the scourge.

You know, an orc, like the ones the blood elves are currently allied with...

[Doffen]

Not the best comparison. Even if Arthas was an undead he'd still be undead human since undeath is a state of existence, not a race. Nightborne aren't Night Elevs.

Nightborne is just as much Night Elves as Arthas was Human. And yes, he was human. No doubt. A shitty weak human being.

Nightborne Elves are originally Night Elves, like most other elves.

[Kiri]

Given Fandral's rather xenophobic attitude towards the rest of the Alliance, that'd indicate there'd be two Alliance teams. One official ambassadorial mission (and really, checking the credentials and authorization of an ambassador is diplomacy 101, if the ambassador didn't have authorization to speak in the name of the Alliance he'd be sent away) and Fandral's special ops. But both fucked with the Blood Elves.

And yes, the quests were made after the decision to make Blood Elves Horde. This is inconsequential to a lore discussion. Blizzard could have the most idiotic reasons to write any and all peace of the story, what matters in a lore topic is what they've written.

Also, in vanilla Dwarves already randomly risked war in three different Horde-controlled areas because they apparently didn't have enough space to dig stuff up back at home. So your earlier point about how super wise and diplomatic Magni was kinda flies out of the window. Which could very well apply to his diplomats.

Which was still the continuation of the Alliance of Lordaeron. Garithos was just the highest ranked remaining officer so he assumed control. It was made of the same groups and nations that are the baseline of the Grand Alliance.

When did Garrosh backstab the Blood Elves? The Blood Elves rebelled against him, not the other way around. And yes, Garithos is one of the reasons they joined the Horde. That doesn't innately indicate that what he's done is worse than the Orcs. It's still more recent and was followed by Alliance trying to fuck them over some more. Orcs aren't even the reason why the Blood Elves joined the Horde (so from that perspective they don't matter immensely one way or another), Sylvanas was. The same Sylvanas that admitted to still having a heavy dislike of the Orcs when she herself joined the Horde. The same could have been true for Blood Elves.

And neither try to gather any information, particularly from the Blood Elves themselves. While understandable for Vereesa since she carries her biases due to "they killed muh Rhonin", the same shouldn't apply to Alleria. And yet she gobbles up everything Vereesa feeds them and rather than ask Lor'themar, her friend, his story, she instantly blabbers about what her master Anduin ordered her to say.

And then most of the Orcs turned against Garrosh and dethroned him, which should be enough of a statement about them and brutality. They also know that Forsaken's primary enemy was the Scourge, who used bio-magical warfare against them in the first place and Alleria should understand the concept of fighting fire with fire because she's a purple embodiment of it. Alleria also knows the Forsaken are led by her own sister and consist of many fallen High Elves, but instead of trying to get any information whatsoever, all she apparently cares about is "hurr durr, how can she lead the Horde".

There is a lot about the whole Eversong Woods/Ghostlands alliance part that does not make sense. Most of all why a supposed ambassador of Ironforge is not in Silvermoon proper but at some random arcane sanctum. Or why he would add notes in Dwarven on incriminating documents that he gave to the Elves. But no, there is either one Alliance team that both the Dwarf and the Elves belong to, or the sentinels stole the Dwarf's plans - which would call his murder into question.

Anyway, I did not call Magni super wise or anything, I just said that he would not needlessly agitate a supposedly neutral/possibly allied race for no reason, due to Blizz writing him as a good king stereotype. Yeah, he has subordinates not sharing his stance, but my point was that he would not have sent a saboteur to randomly mess with stuff. There's a thing called nuance.

The Alliance of Lordaeron that it was a continuation of was wiped out with him. The Grand Alliance has incorporated some of the former members, but is not the same entity.

Garrosh murdered high ranking blood elf military due to them dissenting. He also arguably planned the same thing to the Grand Magister, but the latter just refused the summons. He did utilize a Sunreaver to steal the divine Bell, which in turn sabotaged Rommath's peace talks. Sticking to Garrosh for a moment, the Orcs only moved against Garrosh after he went too far with regards to his own people. They did not when he Manabombed cities, had schools slaughtered or outright tortured the elements into twisted monstrosities. Or when they were about to enslave Pandaren they came across. Those are things that Vereesa and by extension Alleria knows about. They rejected him after he hurt them, but not when he hurt others.
As for the Forsaken, fighting fire with fire does not justify using fire against wood. They experimented on humans and used their pseudo scourge on Human towns, who clearly have not used bio-magical warfare against them.
Which is not to say though that Alleria is not seeking out information. She wants to talk to Sylvanas directly about all of this before forming her opinion, so I am not sure where you are getting the notion that she does not want that. Yeah, the whole 'lead the Horde' thing does not compute to her, due to the above. We do not know whether or not she talks to Lor'themar, and she certainly does not instantly blabber about Anduin. Just because we are not explicitly shown something does not mean it did not happen or will not happen. The reunion of the Windrunners is still an upcoming event.

As for Vereesa, yeah, she was mostly written as Rohnin's satellite character, but she has grown at least a little bit. She almost defected to the Horde, despite what happened to Rohnin and what a bloodelf did to her kids.

[Arrashi]

There is a lot about the whole Eversong Woods/Ghostlands alliance part that does not make sense. Most of all why a supposed ambassador of Ironforge is not in Silvermoon proper but at some random arcane sanctum. Or why he would add notes in Dwarven on incriminating documents that he gave to the Elves. But no, there is either one Alliance team that both the Dwarf and the Elves belong to, or the sentinels stole the Dwarf's plans - which would call his murder into question.

Probably because he is spy doing spys work.

[Captain Kennedy]

Alleria didn't fight in the First War.

Error by me, I don't know why I didn't pick up on that.

And given her being absent during the High Elf-Blood Elf split, it's rather meaningless to project the stances of High Elves during that debacle onto Alleria.

Except the fact that she was absent better explains it. She wasn't around to see her people suffering and why Lorthemar and the Blood Elves made the choice they did at the time.

In the thousand years she was fighting the Legion she showed more of the pragmatism and "the end justifies the means" mentality of Blood Elves rather than "lel morals above all" of High Elves.

She fought against fel, not void. She only knew it was bad because Xe'ra told her so. Even then she didn't always put all her stock on what Xe'ra says. Void was never Alleria's enemy, it never ravaged her homeland and threw Azeroth into a war. Fel was the enemy for over a thousand years. From the Second War to the invasion of Argus. It's not hard to see why she'd feel alienated by her people drinking the cool aid.

Out of all people in Warcraft you think it's Alleria that'd have any issue with someone draining a darkened Naaru?

He wasn't darkened when he first arrived at Quel'Thalas. He only turned into his void form after the Blood Elves relentlessly drained him and Kael abducted him again. Comparing what happened to him and L'ura isn't really fair.

Also, aside from Blood Elves not succumbing to Fel, she succumbed to an even worse power and had no problem with Kerrilldank whatsoever.

The Blood Elves still have green eyes since I last checked. And while those days are mostly behind them, it's still hard for Alleria to come back and hear the extremes they went too. And while for the orcs, that part of them is just history now - for the Blood Elves it's still fairly fresh.

Again, Blizzard purposely made a dichotomy between the High Elves and Blood Elves when the culture split. And it is totally understandable why Alleria picked the side she did. It doesn't mean it's the right side.

[Kiri]

Probably because he is spy doing spys work.

Yeah, but a spy that intentionally gives plans to the Sentinels should make the notes in Darnassian, not Dwarven, which is what makes it stupid. In the whole of Eversong Woods there is a single Dwarf and he basically signs spywork with his name like that? That is like the worst spy in WoW's history, which is saying a lot.

[Arrashi]

Yeah, but a spy that intentionally gives plans to the Sentinels should make the notes in Darnassian, not Dwarven, which is what makes it stupid. In the whole of Eversong Woods there is a single Dwarf and he basically signs spywork with his name like that? That is like the worst spy in WoW's history, which is saying a lot.

Well he is alliance....

[Combatbutler]

Again, Blizzard purposely made a dichotomy between the High Elves and Blood Elves when the culture split. And it is totally understandable why Alleria picked the side she did. It doesn't mean it's the right side.

This here is false Alleria did not pick the high elves, she picked the Alliance she still considers the blood elves her people. Alleria herself is basically no longer a high elf but rather a ren'dorei a void elf.

[Captain Kennedy]

This here is false Alleria did not pick the high elves, she picked the Alliance she still considers the blood elves her people. Alleria herself is basically no longer a high elf but rather a ren'dorei a void elf.

She picked Vareesa over Lorthemar. And her dialogue on the PTR so far implies she sees the Blood Elves as misguided and wants to repair the old alliance with them and the Humans. She will help the Ren'dorei join, but they're lead by Umbric. Just like how Liadrin (I think it was her from the voice files mined) will help the Nightborne join the Horde.

[Combatbutler]

She picked Vareesa over Lorthemar. And her dialogue on the PTR so far implies she sees the Blood Elves as misguided and wants to repair the old alliance with them and the Humans. She will help the Ren'dorei join, but they're lead by Umbric. Just like how Lorthemar (I think it was him from the voice files mined) will help the Nightborne join the Horde.

It doesn't change the fact that Alleria herself has been changed by the void something she herself says, she is no longer a high elf. And it doesn't even matter in the slightest if she supports vereesa in some matters or not, because she does not hate her people nor does she wants them gone, nor has she acknowledged the choice the high elves made, refusing to drain mana was the correct one, considering her choice to use the void to fight i have a hard time seeing her having a problem with Rommath's teachings.

High elves are defined through their integrity something Alleria willingly sacrificed to use the void.

[elbleuet]

It doesn't change the fact that Alleria herself has been changed by the void something she herself says, she is no longer a high elf. And it doesn't even matter in the slightest if she supports vereesa in some matters or not, because she does not hate her people nor does she wants them gone, nor has she acknowledged the choice the high elves made, refusing to drain mana was the correct one, considering her choice to use the void to fight i have a hard time seeing her having a problem with Rommath's teachings.

High elves are defined through their integrity something Alleria willingly sacrificed to use the void.

She's a high elf with void abilities that's all. That's like saying a demon hunter blood elf is no longer a blood elf. Nonsense.

[Combatbutler]

She's a high elf with void abilities that's all. That's like saying a demon hunter blood elf is no longer a blood elf. Nonsense.

She has more void absorbed than any of the other void elves, how is she not a void elf?

[elbleuet]

She has more void absorbed than any of the other void elves, how is she not a void elf?

Those are voidy blood elves aka ren'dorei. I don't really see your point.

[Combatbutler]

Those are voidy blood elves aka ren'dorei. I don't really see your point.

The point is that Alleria is the one teaching them the ways of the void and that she has more void power in her than the rest of them, the only difference here is that she does not look as fucked up as the rest, that doesn't mean she shouldn't be considered a void elf though, because she clearly does not meet the criteria for high elf anymore, who are basically all about integrity and purity.

Both things Alleria threw away the moment she decided to follow locus walker.

[Captain Kennedy]

It doesn't change the fact that Alleria herself has been changed by the void something she herself says, she is no longer a high elf. And it doesn't even matter in the slightest if she supports vereesa in some matters or not, because she does not hate her people nor does she wants them gone, nor has she acknowledged the choice the high elves made, refusing to drain mana was the correct one, considering her choice to use the void to fight i have a hard time seeing her having a problem with Rommath's teachings.

High elves are defined through their integrity something Alleria willingly sacrificed to use the void.

But Alleria starting dabbling in void for very different reasons than the High Elves had for dabbling in draining magic, fel and light. The problem between the High Elves and Blood Elves were the moral repercussions of draining magic and light from innocent beings. Dabbling in fel is only an offence due to the Elves long history with fel fucking their shit up and some Elves across their entire history going way too hard on the paint. The Elves as a whole only had a history with the void being dangerous in recent years, when Lorthemar had to exile Umbric and his followers when the safety of the new Sunwell was at risk. Fel has a much deeper history with them. The High Elves also opposed the totalitarian rule on Quel'Thalas, no matter how brief that ended up being.

Alleria and using void doesn't break High Elf integrity. Light didn't effect High Elf integrity either, but draining and torturing a Naaru did. Context is king.

[FelPlague]

Man, this argument again. You know that saying about silence being golden ? Take it to heart.

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Well i kinda like sylvanas and i consider mudmug to be peak of sexual appeal. Checkmate atheist ?

mudmug can never die, he is too sexy, blizzard would be nuked if they dared to touch mudmug

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Actually i seen alot more R-18 of jaina and that scarlet crusade chick. And even tyrande and liandrin. There was that nice piece where liandrin tentacle rapes tyrande using light.

scarlet crusade chick?
also no, as someone who has a friend who draws that kinda art for a living.
sylvanas is THE MOST
jaina is a close second.
tyrande and liadrin are high up on the list

[Combatbutler]

But Alleria starting dabbling in void for very different reasons than the High Elves had for dabbling in draining magic, fel and light. The problem between the High Elves and Blood Elves were the moral repercussions of draining magic and light from innocent beings. Dabbling in fel is only an offence due to the Elves long history with fel fucking their shit up and some Elves across their entire history going way too hard on the paint. The Elves as a whole only had a history with the void being dangerous in recent years, when Lorthemar had to exile Umbric and his followers when the safety of the new Sunwell was at risk. Fel has a much deeper history with them. The High Elves also opposed the totalitarian rule on Quel'Thalas, no matter how brief that ended up being.

Alleria and using void doesn't break High Elf integrity. Light didn't effect High Elf integrity either, but draining and torturing a Naaru did. Context is king.

Actually no she did not, Alleria started dabbling in the void for the exact sasme reassons it was the path she believed was necessary to protect her loved ones and her home, it is exactly the same reason the blood elves embraced Rommath's teachings. The high elf on the other hand weren't willing to drain mana from vermin, even it meant the destruction of their own kingdom, they put their integrity above their own well being and the well being of their people as a whole.

Using void magic is breaking the high elf integrity due to its very nature of being an incredibly dangerous form of magic, even darker than fel magic itself. Those who deal with the void in the manner Alleria and the void elves do is a dance with insanity and they are mistrusted by the Alliance as a result.

One could even say the path she is currently on is a stark reminder of the early stages of Kael'thas Sunstrider.

[elbleuet]

The point is that Alleria is the one teaching them the ways of the void and that she has more void power in her than the rest of them, the only difference here is that she does not look as fucked up as the rest, that doesn't mean she shouldn't be considered a void elf though, because she clearly does not meet the criteria for high elf anymore, who are basically all about integrity and purity.

Both things Alleria threw away the moment she decided to follow locus walker.

That's your own criterias. A high elf is just an Alliance blood elf. Some high elves are warlocks and even shadow priests.
Alleria no matter if she decided to follow the void path remains a high elven farstrider with a high elf mentality.

[FelPlague]

I dont see anyone on these forums using this argument other than alliance fans, can you explain that to me?

because people who think with their dicks dont admit it?
you really think people are going to say
"Sylvanas is a kind charecter, she is a good person and the best warcheif"
or
"SYLVANAS IS HOTT I WANT HER TO STAY SO I CAN HAVE CHANCE TO FUCK HER IN MY DREAMS AND I LOVE TO MASTERBATE TO HER!!!"

[Combatbutler]

That's your own criterias. A high elf is just an Alliance blood elf. Some high elves are warlocks and even shadow priests.
Alleria no matter if she decided to follow the void path remains a high elven farstrider with a high elf mentality.

She does not have a high elf mentality, she embraced the void to protect her home and loved ones, the high elves rejected draining mana from living beings even if it means their kingdom and all those , including themselves burn. Alleria has the mindset of a pragmatist while high elves are zealous idealists.