Are lootboxes gambling & should games be regulated. BF2 and OW under investigation

[Bronan]

No it isn't gambling. Gambling is betting money for more money. If you lose, you get nothing. This is purchasing an item to give you more items. You are guaranteed to get items out of it. But because communities are full of whiny brats who bitch when they don't get what they want, this topic now exists. if this is gambling then so is MTG, or yugioh, or pokemon.

No, gambling is betting money to get pleasure. This is the core of gambling and the thing that causes addiction.

[Pandragon]

No, gambling is betting money to get pleasure. This is the core of gambling and the thing that causes addiction.

The definition of gambling is wagering money on something that involves risk. Betting money to LOSE it, and get nothing in return. That's gambling. Buying loot boxes isnt a risk. you pay money, you get items. But, as I said, the bratty whiny community is bitching that they dont get what they want. If this is considered gambling, then every TCG on the market needs to be as well. You spend $5 for a pack of cards, you dont know what youre gonna get. So it's gambling as well.

[Jtbrig7390]

The definition of gambling is wagering money on something that involves risk.

You forgot the other part of the definition.

gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1.
play games of chance for money; bet.
"she was fond of gambling on cards and horses"
synonyms: bet, place/lay a bet on something, stake money on something, back the horses, game; informalplay the ponies
"he started to gamble more often"
2.
take risky action in the hope of a desired result.
"the British could only gamble that something would turn up"

Also when you buy a lootbox you are betting money in the hopes of a desired outcomes and that fits the top and bottom part of the definition.

#TheMoreYouKnow.

[Pandragon]

You forgot the other part of the definition.
Also when you buy a lootbox you are betting money in the hopes of a desired outcomes and that fits the top and bottom part of the definition.

#TheMoreYouKnow.

So answer this. If loot boxes are gambling, then why isnt Wizards of the Coast, Konami, or any other TCG maker having people going after them? Packs of cards are the exact same thing. It's really sad that this is what the gaming community has become.

[Orange Joe]

You forgot the other part of the definition.
Also when you buy a lootbox you are betting money in the hopes of a desired outcomes and that fits the top and bottom part of the definition.

#TheMoreYouKnow.

Risky action = killing boss
desired outcome = getting loot


congratulations you just labeled pretty much all loot systems as gambling

[Dezerte]

So here's a hypothetical I wonder about:

I run a regular casino, but those who bet & lose always gets a free drink at the bar. So in other words, you always get something when you play. You could imagine further variations of this - at which point do you think it stops being gambling?

[Orange Joe]

So here's a hypothetical I wonder about:

I run a regular casino, but those who bet & lose always gets a free drink at the bar. So in other words, you always get something when you play. You could imagine further variations of this - at which point do you think it stops being gambling?

I think the more important question here is when does it start being gambling.


If you go some definitions any game with a rng loot system can be considered gambling.

[Dhrizzle]

So you're telling me I can open a casino, allow a limited number of pulls on a slot machine after they finish a Sudoku, and it's not gambling. Considering you can afk in LFR, and get the chance without even doing anything. Gotcha.

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But it really isn't. It's the exact same concept. you're just adding one step before it. If you say it isn't because of that extra step, then it is really easy for any gambling establishment to just add a simple puzzle before you can gamble, and it is no longer gambling.

My biggest point is that you can't really say WoW has loot-boxes as a revenue stream when the loot rerolls are so limited and hardly require you to buy gold with real money as they're so cheap. Sure you can say that Blizz are selling (or at least profiting from the sale of) in-game currency, but it's a massive stretch to turn that into a loot-box revenue stream.

As for your ideas on gambling, there are (at least in UK law) certain requirements that games of skill/knowledge have to meet to exclude them from being considered gambling. If your "simple puzzles" can be completed by everyone who attempts them then the following game would still be considered gambling.

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You forgot the other part of the definition.
Also when you buy a lootbox you are betting money in the hopes of a desired outcomes and that fits the top and bottom part of the definition.

#TheMoreYouKnow.

You're getting confused between the legal definition of gambling used for regulation and the colloquial way used in every day speech. If the second definition fell under gambling laws people wouldn't be able to do anything without a gambling license as there is an inherent risk in every aspect of life. Food shops would all have to be defined as casinos as there is a chance of getting food poisoning. Public transport vehicles would all be mobile casinos as there is a chance they will be delayed or involved in accidents. The entire RPG and table-top battle game industry would be choked by the need to regulate hundreds of gambling actions every play session, and so on.

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So answer this. If loot boxes are gambling, then why isnt Wizards of the Coast, Konami, or any other TCG maker having people going after them? Packs of cards are the exact same thing. It's really sad that this is what the gaming community has become.

There was a similar moral panic about Pokemon cards a decade or two ago but Nintendo managed to fight it off.

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So here's a hypothetical I wonder about:

I run a regular casino, but those who bet & lose always gets a free drink at the bar. So in other words, you always get something when you play. You could imagine further variations of this - at which point do you think it stops being gambling?

I imagine it would stop being gambling when the free drinks at the bar are equal to the stake placed in the bet. So if you were giving out £5 worth of drinks for every £5 bet it would not be gambling. If you only gave out £2 worth of drinks for the £5 bet it would effectively be a £3 bet. Also you're running the risk of breaking laws designed to prevent the promotion of excessive drinking.

[Yuyn]

So answer this. If loot boxes are gambling, then why isnt Wizards of the Coast, Konami, or any other TCG maker having people going after them? Packs of cards are the exact same thing. It's really sad that this is what the gaming community has become.

Packs of cards can be traded to other people. Loot box items can't be traded, only turned in for a special currency that the manufacturer decides the value on. It'd be like if you couldn't trade Magic cards with other people, but only turn them over to Wizards of the Coast who decided that fifty common cards would let you trade for one rare card.

Basically, the big problem is that they're randomized and the company who determines all the randomization also determines how much any failure is worth, rather than a community of players swapping them around.

[Orange Joe]

Packs of cards can be traded to other people. Loot box items can't be traded, only turned in for a special currency that the manufacturer decides the value on. It'd be like if you couldn't trade Magic cards with other people, but only turn them over to Wizards of the Coast who decided that fifty common cards would let you trade for one rare card.

Basically, the big problem is that they're randomized and the company who determines all the randomization also determines how much any failure is worth, rather than a community of players swapping them around.

That depends on the game. Some games have tradable items in lootboxes.

[Notshauna]

There are two big issues I have with loot boxes, both of which would hopefully be solved by regulation. First and foremost they rarely if ever actually report the drop rates so player's can't make informed decisions as to the expected value of a loot box, I don't follow other TCGs but Magic has all of this information publicly available so you can easily google and see the expected value of any given set. If you buy a booster box of magic you know the odds of getting a specific card, whereas there is no way to know the odds with 100 loot boxes. This also has the important benefit of forcing companies to lock down their rarities, which prevents them from changing drop rates on the fly to best string along addictive players (I would be very surprised to hear that no one is doing that, it's a common practice in illegal gambling places). Secondly I don't like that you can't receive the items in anyway OTHER than gambling, Overwatch and Heroes of the Storm's currencies allow them to get some leeway towards this but you should be able to buy credits directly. TCGs also don't have this problem as they are physical goods.

I'd personally still make attempts to steer clear from loot boxes, as they are still awful, but I wouldn't think they should be illegal. Which honestly, that's the best you're going to get from me.

[markos82]

I wouldnt call it a gambling since when you gamble there are 2 options, to win or to lose. With lootboxes you get an virtual item that will always contain something, if that something isnt something you like or need well tough luck but you simply can't lose, as in the box can't be empty.

[Dhrizzle]

Packs of cards can be traded to other people. Loot box items can't be traded, only turned in for a special currency that the manufacturer decides the value on. It'd be like if you couldn't trade Magic cards with other people, but only turn them over to Wizards of the Coast who decided that fifty common cards would let you trade for one rare card.

Basically, the big problem is that they're randomized and the company who determines all the randomization also determines how much any failure is worth, rather than a community of players swapping them around.

The fact that trading-cards can easily be sold on for real money, even if it's through a third-party like e-Bay, brings them a lot closer to gambling.

[markos82]

The fact that trading-cards can easily be sold on for real money, even if it's through a third-party like e-Bay, brings them a lot closer to gambling.

So buying a chips that have lets say some card inside is also a gambling....

[Dhrizzle]

So buying a chips that have lets say some card inside is also a gambling....

If the cards have varying values, are randomly assigned to the packs and there is a readily available system to turn some of the cards into cash then yes, the chips could fall under gambling laws.

[markos82]

If the cards have varying values, are randomly assigned to the packs and there is a readily available system to turn some of the cards into cash then yes, the chips could fall under gambling laws.

Actually they can't Because like I said when you gamble you have 2 options or end results, its either you will win or you will lose. WIth chips and like lootboxes you will get something, you can't open a bag or lootbox and see it empty and in case with chips you get chips + card.

I would agree if you said that if lets say Coca-Cola is having something like, look under the cap and you might win a ticket or a car as gambling but you still get something for your money in this case a Coca-cola...

[Dhrizzle]

Actually they can't Because like I said when you gamble you have 2 options or end results, its either you will win or you will lose. WIth chips and like lootboxes you will get something, you can't open a bag or lootbox and see it empty and in case with chips you get chips + card.

I would agree if you said that if lets say Coca-Cola is having something like, look under the cap and you might win a ticket or a car as gambling but you still get something for your money in this case a Coca-cola...

If you look closely at those offers you'll usually see it says "no purchase necessary" and the company running them will have another (free) method to randomly determine if you have won a prize. They do this to steer clear of being labeled gambling or a lottery.

Example from a quick google - https://us.coca-cola.com/legal/55923/

[markos82]

If you look closely at those offers you'll usually see it says "no purchase necessary" and the company running them will have another (free) method to randomly determine if you have won a prize. They do this to steer clear of being labeled gambling or a lottery.

Example from a quick google - https://us.coca-cola.com/legal/55923/

And this is the key. When you buy lootboxes you already won something, well not won but got something for your money, its not considered as prize.
If you wanna think of it like that then entire WoW is a gambling game, you either win an item or not, and now with TF and such its even a bigger gamble. And lets not talk about bonus rolls..

[Deleted]

Classifying lootboxes as gambling would be way more than just slapping an "A" on the game box. There are lots of rules and regulations for each country specifying what the organizer of gambling can and can't do.

For example there's rules that specify what the minimum payout can be (here it's 80%) so buying a 5$ lootbox would at least return you 4$ worth of stuff (instead of worthless crap no one needs that can be traded for a small fraction of the drop's actual value).
If you actually converted all of the lootbox drops to their ingame currency value and then convert that currency to the value that it sells for, you'd likely notice that if the lootbox gives you 3 worthless items their money value equivalent would be way below 10% of what the loot box cost.
Organizer is also required to submit the program that it's using to distribute rewards to authorities and is not allowed to chance said program without resubmitting it to authorities (think of power creep items dilluting the total loot pool and at the same time devaluing older strong items. If a box starts with 20 items out of which 4 are good and then 20 more get added out of which 4 are good then in reality you end up with 40 items out of which 4 are good, thus reducing your chance of getting a good one from 20% to 10%.)

I don't see how anyone but the pig publishers would benefit from lack of regulation to what is throwing money away. In theory you get something every time you gamble, but if any casino in the world would give you a bucket of shit, even if that shit would have a monetary value, when you didn't win what you want (money) you likely wouldn't consider that a "still won something".

[Bronan]

So here's a hypothetical I wonder about:

I run a regular casino, but those who bet & lose always gets a free drink at the bar. So in other words, you always get something when you play. You could imagine further variations of this - at which point do you think it stops being gambling?

Not the same thing. When you gamble, you're looking for a specific outcome. It really doesn't matter you get other stuff if you lose, as that stuff is not what you wanted nor even care about, so you may as well get nothing at all if you lose.

Since you mentioned raids. How about this? Each boss, instead of dropping loot, it drops a locked box. To open that box you need to buy a key for 5$ each. Each box may contain the item you wanted OR a small sum of gold. Would you really be satisfied with the shitty gold you got? Would you feel there is nothing wrong with this system?