Can we stop with the slippery slope arguments

[MardestyGSOG]

I'd be fine with a few WOL changes but I'm on the slippery slopes bandwagon as well. Not that it's impossible to only make a few WOL changes, but it's about my faith in blizzard to handle the communities reaction, say we get aoe loot, a million people bitch that little johnny got what he wanted but I don't, so blizzard adds guild banks and multi-mailing, then everyone bitches that corpseruns and flights are too long and "you've added QOL before why not now?" Do they stand their ground when people start demanding the QOL adds that get dangerously close to game changing? I don't fully trust them to stick to their guns once they open the floodgates for just one or 2 changes

- - - Updated - - -

OP, why is it so hard for you to understand that people who fought for vanilla don't want any of the proposed changes? If you want anything other then that, it's not meant for you. They want to recreate the atmosphere exactly the way it was. All the little things that seem tedious to you and you think should be changed, is a part of that atmosphere.

IMO, the whole project will fail fairly quickly and isn't something that blizz should waste time, money and people, but since it's happening, let it be right to those who fought for it. Not for you who want some QOL. It's for them, who want it the way it was. You like it-you join it, you don't-you don't. You don't get to change it.

holy shit, a non legacy player who can simply let other players enjoy what they want? This is madness and gtfo of this forum sir!

[Darththeo]

"We know vanilla means vanilla" ~ Ion Hazzikostas
https://clips.twitch.tv/SingleOddDiscBleedPurple

For example, with the Intellect buff, is it important to you that players do need to drink after casting it?

J. Allen Brack: Yes. That's part of the level 60 experience. Our goal is to recreate that classic 1-60 gameplay. Some things changed as time went on, with different patches. How does that get manifested? That's one of the outstanding questions. But yeah, the goal is to recreate that exact experience, for better or for worse.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...-big-questions

Educate yourself.

LMAO ... I know that quote, but you are asserting your assumptions as the only valid way to read that. Do you know what a goal is? They want it as close as possible that's it. it doesn't mean they WON'T choose to do things like balancing classes, which FYI, they have talked about doing.

Also, I get an Error 404 on the link, please post the entire link.

[Forogil]

What many seem to miss is that regardless of player-driven changes some of the steps of the "slippery slope" will happen. If you believe that everything will inevitably snowball from any change then I think you are likely to be disappointed:

Blizzard will likely update the game to run on 4K-screens, for SC that lead to updated models with higher resolution. (There is less need in WoW - but slippery slope-argument says that 4K-screens leads to higher resolution models which leads to lfr unlocking transmogs for battle pets.)

Blizzard will likely plan for a large influx at the start and a lot fewer players a few weeks in, and integrate Battle.Net so that you can see your friends playing and group up with them.
If players are on different incompatible realms it is pointless inviting them, and since cross-realm group will generate too much hate they might just make one realm and use sharding - which also handles the legion of players during the first week without having empty realms afterwards - sharding will lead to different players from the same realm being at the same spot, but not seeing each other, diluting the realm community - so same result as cross-realm groups, but technically not cross-realm.
(Of course some will claim that login-queues and crashes are part of the vanilla experience.)

At some point Blizzard is likely to realize that people desire some items etc that are unavailable in BfA and available in Vanilla and monetize people's desire, e.g. in some way at least allow transmog and achievs in BfA based on what you do in Vanilla. (The new "unlock unique transmog by leveling an allied race" also hints at this.) Blizzard can (at first) claim that they didn't change anything in Vanilla...

[ping-pong]

I'd be fine with a few WOL changes but I'm on the slippery slopes bandwagon as well. Not that it's impossible to only make a few WOL changes, but it's about my faith in blizzard to handle the communities reaction, say we get aoe loot, a million people bitch that little johnny got what he wanted but I don't, so blizzard adds guild banks and multi-mailing, then everyone bitches that corpseruns and flights are too long and "you've added QOL before why not now?" Do they stand their ground when people start demanding the QOL adds that get dangerously close to game changing? I don't fully trust them to stick to their guns once they open the floodgates for just one or 2 changes

- - - Updated - - -

holy shit, a non legacy player who can simply let other players enjoy what they want? This is madness and gtfo of this forum sir!

I was a hater, but I grew out of it Let it play out the way you guys want it.

[Wiedzemir]

If players are on different incompatible realms it is pointless inviting them, and since cross-realm group will generate too much hate they might just make one realm and use sharding - which also handles the legion of players during the first week without having empty realms afterwards - sharding will lead to different players from the same realm being at the same spot, but not seeing each other, diluting the realm community - so same result as cross-realm groups, but technically not cross-realm.
(Of course some will claim that login-queues and crashes are part of the vanilla experience.)

Yeah and that will be the death of classic. Because one of the biggest gripes with current WoW people have is that mirror locations systems that turned and MMO into a session based multiplayer nonsense. Actually, reading this forum I'm starting to see why the downfall of MMO genre has happened. Not many people actually want to play an MMO, a world shared with other people. What they want is something akin first Guild Wars, a co-RPG.

[GrinningMan]

All over this subforum, the most common response to any, ANY request for ANY change, no matter how small, is this idiotic slippery slope argument of:



Please educate yourself: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

Is it impossible to make just one or two changes? If you change one thing, then EVERYTHING else *MUST* change, 100% guaranteed? The problem with retail was not changes themselves, rather, that Blizz changed too much and didn't know where to draw the line. Most, if not all vanilla players liked TBC, even though it had a shitload of changes from vanilla. So why is it such a massive sin to make any little change to vanilla?

No, adding in minor QoL features like AoE looting will not lead to "LFR, flying, heirlooms, instant 60" or any of that bullshit, and such minor QoL features will not affect the "feel" of the game or whatever other emotion-based argument you want to use. I dislike retail as much as the next vanilla fan, but there are plenty of GOOD changes that retail has made, that would be very useful in vanilla.

Furthermore, addons in vanilla already add a fuckton of QoL, yet you don't see anyone advocating that those are "not vanilla" or that they should be removed. Vanilla was full of addons, specifically because players weren't satisfied with the game's base offerings, and wanted to add things to improve it. Things like LazyPig automating tons of things, or EzDismount, which auto-dismounts you when you try to cast a spell, movable cast bars, better unit frames, chat modifications, easy dispel addons...players have been making their own QoL changes to the game ever since it released.

--------------

Point is, please come up with actual arguments for why a change is bad, instead of just plugging your ears and screaming "NOT VANILLA!" or "SLIPPERY SLOPE!".

It starts with stopping slippery slope, then you'll be saying that appealing to authority is a bad idea.

[Sturmbringe]

Blizzard will likely update the game to run on 4K-screens

The game already runs on 4K screens. In fact, I am running Vanilla WoW at 6880X2880.

Featured: WoW Vanilla at 3440X1440 (upscaled to 6880X2880 via NVIDIA's DSR). Note the snow in SW which Blizzard never added in Retail servers.



For those interested, I own an ACER Predator X34 34inch 3440X1440 curved monitor and a GTX 1080.

[munkeyinorbit]

Point is, please come up with actual arguments for why a change is bad, instead of just plugging your ears and screaming "NOT VANILLA!" or "SLIPPERY SLOPE!".

Maybe you should come up with a different argument that isn't STOP WITH THE <INSERT THING I DONT LIKE> arguments. We have defeated all of your arguments and this is all people like you have left. Classic is Vanilla. That is what we fought for. Don't like it? Maybe you go play a game that you do like. Stop trying to hijack our game from us. It makes you look pathetic.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah... bad for you I guess. Except here we're talking about a game. You know... entertainment. And some people find it entertaining to, for example, climb to the mount Everest. And they undertake that endeavor despite all of the inconveniences. But I guess you're, indeed, too old to understand that as well because old people also tend to sit on their ass and stare judgmentally at people enjoying something these old people themselves don't.

If anyone is scare of change that is you. You are so entrenched in your convenient little features, that you can't imagine yourself without it and you can't imagine yourself to play the game without these. And you're to scared that others might leave you behind and your little game is going to stay convenient, yet empty. So now you sit there, scared and unsettled of coming changes.


See, I can play armchair psychoanalysis as well.

Maybe you should play armchair go to school. How old is your computer? Does it not come up with red squiggly lines when there are spelling errors? Man, have some pride in what you type.

[Deleted]

Indeed it's a slipery slope, some would argue that arguments like "the game has room for improvements" are what lead the game to it's current state, so it's only natural that ppl don't take suggestions for changes lightly.

Also suggesting something like aoe looting, which is completly irrelevant and unnecessary given the pace of classic, doesnt help you case.

This said i do think there are some things that could be improved, examples that come to mind are a self cast modifier, or the ability to send several items at once by mail. This for me clearly isn't the case of aoe looting, which is pointless as i stated, nor xmog, like cmon you have 3 tiers in the game, what the hell do you really want transmog for?

I can tell you, with xmog in vanilla I would have most of my mog item before reaching lvl60. At least for 2 classes. Most of those items sleeped in my banqs from vanilla to cata.
No I'm not talking about lvling item post cata. Im talking vanilla item. I like simple and sober look, you can achieve that with no need for raid tiers.

[Wiedzemir]

I can tell you, with xmog in vanilla I would have most of my mog item before reaching lvl60. At least for 2 classes. Most of those items sleeped in my banqs from vanilla to cata.
No I'm not talking about lvling item post cata. Im talking vanilla item. I like simple and sober look, you can achieve that with no need for raid tiers.

Cool. The majority skin chasers will want that rare skin though. The last thing vanilla needs is people rolling for items they don't need or want but simply think they look cool. Which is, again, especially bad in case of vanilla because item class restrictions were much more loose.

[gushDH]

But... the 500k signatures asking for classic servers are players who asked for classic server as they were back then. With their goods and their bads. You didn't see those signatures asking for "classic... but with this and that".

So it's not that a change would be bad or something. It's that a change would make it slip away from being the actual classic wow experience.

[Synthium]

I'll be the first one to admit that I do want "Classic +" with some changes as every time I wanted to go back and enjoy private servers, I have been hindered by certain things that are downright retarded and were changed later on for a reason. Yes, I am an active retail player, and no, things I'd like changed are not related to gameplay, XP, LFD or anything of sorts.

I'd like AoE looting, raid frames, better mail-sending and built-in Questie (which is what everyone used anyway, in addition to Thottbot).

- - - Updated - - -

Indeed it's a slipery slope, some would argue that arguments like "the game has room for improvements" are what lead the game to it's current state, so it's only natural that ppl don't take suggestions for changes lightly.

Also suggesting something like aoe looting, which is completly irrelevant and unnecessary given the pace of classic, doesnt help you case.

This said i do think there are some things that could be improved, examples that come to mind are a self cast modifier, or the ability to send several items at once by mail. This for me clearly isn't the case of aoe looting, which is pointless as i stated, nor xmog, like cmon you have 3 tiers in the game, what the hell do you really want transmog for?

Yeah I want transmog too, to add to the list I made above.

Have you seen what your character looks like with incomplete set, or during leveling, or in the middle of a gearing process, where you'll be (depending on the class) wearing all types of armor at the same time. It's a fucking atrocity. Looks like how Johnny English described his wanted criminal in the eponymous movie, if you watched it.

[anon5123]

If you want the slippery slope argument to stop, you have to refute it. Prove that it isn't a slippery slope to want "one little QOL change"
No one is going to stop using an argument just because you don't like it.

"it's your job to prove my argument wrong"

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

[Demithio]

Personally I don't really care about "convenience" features. I wouldn't mind seeing some changes to some classes so that we can actually enjoy them. In any case, it will be what it will be. It makes me wonder however if this gives Blizzard pause and thought as to whats wrong with retail since there's such a huge demand for Vanilla of 13 years ago. If they hadn't destroyed retail, we wouldn't need "classic" servers,

[Wiedzemir]

"it's your job to prove my argument wrong"

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

Dude, you're ignoring any evidence that contradicts your statement yet lecture the rest on what's logical fallacy. A bit ironic, don't you think?

[ManiaCCC]

Dude, you're ignoring any evidence that contradicts your statement yet lecture the rest on what's logical fallacy. A bit ironic, don't you think?

Buddy, there is nothing to prove. Just bunch of assumptions. That's why is better just talk about specifics without assuming stupid things. If someone ask "I would love to see dual spec", you can't shoot it down by saying "what next, microtransactions?" . It is useless, pointless and stupid. What you actually can do is talk why and how dual spec hurt the game or why you don't like it.

[Wiedzemir]

Buddy, there is nothing to prove. Just bunch of assumptions. That's why is better just talk about specifics without assuming stupid things. If someone ask "I would love to see dual spec", you can't shoot it down by saying "what next, microtransactions?" . It is useless, pointless and stupid. What you actually can do is talk why and how dual spec hurt the game or why you don't like it.

That was said many times all over the forum.

[Jazzhands]

All over this subforum, the most common response to any, ANY request for ANY change, no matter how small, is this idiotic slippery slope argument of:



Please educate yourself: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

Is it impossible to make just one or two changes? If you change one thing, then EVERYTHING else *MUST* change, 100% guaranteed? The problem with retail was not changes themselves, rather, that Blizz changed too much and didn't know where to draw the line. Most, if not all vanilla players liked TBC, even though it had a shitload of changes from vanilla. So why is it such a massive sin to make any little change to vanilla?

No, adding in minor QoL features like AoE looting will not lead to "LFR, flying, heirlooms, instant 60" or any of that bullshit, and such minor QoL features will not affect the "feel" of the game or whatever other emotion-based argument you want to use. I dislike retail as much as the next vanilla fan, but there are plenty of GOOD changes that retail has made, that would be very useful in vanilla.

Furthermore, addons in vanilla already add a fuckton of QoL, yet you don't see anyone advocating that those are "not vanilla" or that they should be removed. Vanilla was full of addons, specifically because players weren't satisfied with the game's base offerings, and wanted to add things to improve it. Things like LazyPig automating tons of things, or EzDismount, which auto-dismounts you when you try to cast a spell, movable cast bars, better unit frames, chat modifications, easy dispel addons...players have been making their own QoL changes to the game ever since it released.

--------------

Point is, please come up with actual arguments for why a change is bad, instead of just plugging your ears and screaming "NOT VANILLA!" or "SLIPPERY SLOPE!".

It's an incredibly simple concept. The people who are actually going to stay, support, and play these servers for a long period of time are the people who want classic WoW without changes. These are the people who are going to spend the most time there, and people like you who want QoL changes are going to quit, fast. Because even with QoL changes you won't like Vanilla, and if they add them, you'll have ruined it for the rest of us. And yes, even one change can be too much. This needs to be all or nothing, because as soon as they cave slightly, the horde of QoL lovers will just run rampant, even if no other changes come of it, because they allowed one change everyone and their dog will say "Well they allowed this, so they should allow my change cause blah blah". They could save so much time and energy by just saying no changes and ending it there.

I would like to see a good argument for adding QoL changes to a server that's meant to preserve the game as it was exactly during a certain part of time. It's like, let's make a historical town but... add some arcade machines to the Blacksmith over there, because normal Blacksmiths are boring. And I think the General store needs a Disco Ball and some bean bag chairs. And maybe a giant Tesla coil in the city square! It's still a historic tow, it's just.. "better"!

And a quick difference between addons and QoL changes: Addons change how we interact with the game, QoL changes how we play it.

[ManiaCCC]

That was said many times all over the forum.

So? As far as I know, noone is force to read this forum each day every day. Let them talk, don't be stupid.

[Ealyssa]

also I've been playing vanilla servers for roughly 3 years now

Nobody gives a fuck how long you played on pirate version to be honest.

You could play for 10 years, as long as you ask for QOL you aren't asking for classic. Period. And that's a very dangerous path. One blizzard allready clearly stated they won't take.

Blizzard stance is the smart one, and the only that matters. Release classic as close as possible of what it was. And AFTER THAT see how it goes, how population grow or crash. And the most requested changes from the actual classic players. Vanilla allready had plenty of people asking for more convenience, and most of the things added through the years were asked by the community. And yet some people now really dislike what it became. Classic QOL is indeed very slippery and should be taken with great caution.