"But it's optional!"

[Hctaz]

Now was attuning to a raid the real grind in TBC or Vanilla i am asking.
Did you forget the gold grind for repairs, pots and food you need to bring with you to the raid? Or was you the only player in the game back then that was getting that for 10min right after you got up from a good night sleep?
C'mon.

Guilds in Vanilla hardly "required" the usage of potions and elixirs. In TBC, everything I needed was easily obtained by my guild selling attunement carries. Guilds really hated going back in to redo their attunements for new recruits, and we took advantage of it. My repairs were taken care of with the gold I got from just general play. I liked farming for optional cosmetic rewards, and there were a lot of stuff locked behind daily quest farming. That was optional, though, but it did give me plenty of repair gold. I would occasionally farm mats, but that wasn't required. The guild had enough money to pay for our shit.

I hardly remember what I did in Vanilla for money. I was a warrior so I probably just had money thrown at me by my guild so I would tank lol

[Deleted]

"The consequences it brings to the community". Uh...care to expand on wtf that means?

Regardless, choosing to fly might be considered "optimal", but the actual harm you suffer by NOT flying is marginal unless you're super obsessed with experiencing the game from the ground. In effect, you're choosing to sacrifice the "intended experience" for efficiency of grind. One or the other. It's only "Optimal" if your focus is on grinding as fast as possible. It's actually sub-optimal if you want to get the grounded experience.

This is the same concept if someone only really wants to screw around at the LFR/Normal level. They're sacrificing optimal efficiency for enjoyment in another part of the game. The fact that they don't enjoy the game or focus on the same things as a hardcore raider does, doesn't mean they're actually playing the game wrong.

This idea that the only acceptable way to play the game is by sacrificing EVERYTHING for efficiency is a deeply flawed perception.

I've been said "is optional" in "transmog threads", in "flying threads" and in "leveling through dungeons VS leveling in the world"
And is friggin stupid in all 3 cases.
If i decide to not transmog myself i will not bring back the times of pre-transmog where everyone didn't have the option.
If i decide to not fly i will not bring back the times of everyone walking around in the ground and populate the ground by myself.
If i decide to level in the out world i will not populate the outworld again and see other people outside.

I will not change ANYTHING by myself deciding to be martyr...

[Queen of Hamsters]

All of these things are completely inconsequential for the average player, but are completely relevant to anybody who wants to clear the Mythic content quickly.

I will always believe that the game is designed around the vast majority rather than the cutting-edge community which loves to over-inflate their importance.

However, Ion about War/Titanforging in BfA:


Titanforging will continue into Battle for Azeroth, except for the Azerite attuned pieces from the Heart of Azeroth.

They are considering changing the odds for Warforged and Titanforged since it feels like all of your gear becomes Warforged or Titanforged very quickly. Then, you can only get upgrades from Titanforged pieces and that feels bad.

Direct quote:
"What he probably wants to hear is that we're getting rid of it. But no. Sorry we're not. What we are doing, so one wrinkle -- the Azerite attuned pieces, the pieces of Azerite armor that I mentioned and Russ Peterson talked about on the panel, those will not be able to Warforge or Titanforge. Those are just fixed, deterministic -- cause no one wants a world where -- these already have enough depth to them; they have customization to them and so it should be relatively straightforward. I got a Mythic one to replace my Heroic one; this is a clear upgrade. It's a no-brainer. For other pieces: gloves, bracers, trinkets, all the rest. We're actually pretty overall satisfied with how it played out. If anything the odds for Warforged and Titanforged may need to be tweaked a little bit since it often feels like you can too quickly get to a place where all your gear is at least some flavor of Warforged, then you're going into content thinking, well nothing is going to be worth using at all unless it titanforging, and that's a weird place to be, because now you're not just hoping your item to drop but also for it to get an extra lucky roll."

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I will not change ANYTHING by myself deciding to be martyr...

... But you'd be playing the game the way YOU want it to be played.

Like, lack of self-control much?
You keep adding new points of contention at that. At some point the penny must drop and you'll realize that you're not "being a martyr" just because you opt to play the game how you wish rather than complaining about everyone else not playing it your way...

And, of course, soon there will be Legacy servers. I got a feeling that the complaining won't stop despite that though...

[The Anax]

I will not change ANYTHING by myself deciding to be martyr...

Correct. Complaining will also not change anything. Also, you can always choose to play something else. There are innumerable videos games to play these days, perhaps a different game would be more enjoyable than playing a game you dislike?

[Deleted]

... But you'll be playing the game the way YOU want it to be played.

Like, lack of self-control much?
You keep adding new points of contention at that. At some point the penny must drop and you'll realize that you're not "being a martyr" just because you opt to play the game how you wish rather than complaining about everyone else not playing it your way...

What good is leveling in the outworld alone.
Walking in the ground when everyone else is flying.
Not transmoging when everyone else is transmoged.

You will be on you lonesome. Not only alone but also doing something sub-optimal.

Sounds fun...playing a Massive Multiplayer Game on your own little world of loneliness.

[Pooti]

I never said that my feelings matter, I'm saying that a discussion should be had that shouldn't be handwaved by "IT'S OPTIONAL LUL" or "MAD CUZ BAD STOP PLAYING".
Also no, even if 50% of the playerbase stopped playing, it wouldn't matter. Because people will still go "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, THEN DON'T PLAY IT. NOTHING IS WRONG".

"Complaining and playing anyway is just childish bitching."
So you're saying that I have to stop playing in order for my input towards this discussion to be taken seriously?
You are saying, in fact, that I have to not be up to date with how the system, AT ALL, for the discussion to take place? What?
No genuinely, what?

What I am saying, is that if it is miserable enough to complain about, then you should stop doing it. Also, if 50% of the playerbase stopped due to some change or design choice, then it would actually have an impact on the people making such decisions. They simply can not tailor the game to make EVERY PLAYER happy. They can not even possibly tailor the game to make a small subset happy, without likely infuriating some other subset. It all becomes a silly moot debate. Either quit, or just play and STFU.

[The Anax]

What good is leveling in the outworld alone.
Walking in the ground when everyone else is flying.
Not transmoging when everyone else is transmoged.

What good is playing a game you do not like?

[Queen of Hamsters]

What good is leveling in the outworld alone.
Walking in the ground when everyone else is flying.
Not transmoging when everyone else is transmoged.

You will be on you lonesome. Not only alone but also doing something sub-optimal.

Sounds fun...playing a Massive Multiplayer Game on your own little world of loneliness.

Or, you know, playing the game in a way that makes you happy. And the world has people playing the game that way just fine, it's just your own lack of self-control and obvious social anxiety that's preventing you from seeing that.

I don't feel alone in the slightest doing things the way I enjoy doing them in this game. And frankly, the vast majority of people play this game at a level where there's no such thing as being "sub-optimal". The ghosts that you're contending with, are in your mind.

But as I said, Legacy will be coming out. I don't think you'll feel less alone though, since there's always going to be people playing the game in ways that you don't want to.

[SirCowdog]

I've been said "is optional" in "transmog threads", in "flying threads" and in "leveling through dungeons VS leveling in the world"
And is friggin stupid in all 3 cases.
If i decide to not transmog myself i will not bring back the times of pre-transmog where everyone didn't have the option.
If i decide to not fly i will not bring back the times of everyone walking around in the ground and populate the ground by myself.
If i decide to level in the out world i will not populate the outworld again and see other people outside.

I will not change ANYTHING by myself deciding to be martyr...

How does choosing to play in a "sub-optimal" way have anything to do with bringing back completely different eras of the game?

If I decide to level through questing instead of dungeons in Legion, NEITHER way will somehow magically alter the game back to Vanilla.
Whether you choose to fly or not, the game is still going to be Legion, regardless of if flying is optimal.
Whether you choose to use Xmog or not, the game is still going to be Legion. (how does using xmog or not have anything to do with optimal gameplay anyway!?)

This is two completely different topics and arguments. If your reasons for playing only in the most efficient and optimal ways is because the alternative is NOT having Vanilla-like gameplay....then....FFS. I don't even know. Your logic for this is way out in left field. I don't even.....

[Deleted]

What good is playing a game you do not like?

I still like other parts of the game.
I think it's "ok" to voice your opinion on things you miss and parts that died along the years.

I will forever miss so many things removed from this game. Is it so wrong to share them?

[Ranganathan]

You never had to grind to clear the content in Legion. The content wasn't balanced around min/max everything in Legion. Your argument is calling bleeding edge world progression as a shitty part time job. When a shitty part time job is a casual guild that clears the content of their ability with out worrying about consuming it the fastest.

Again you are limiting yourself to Option 1 and Option 2 while moaning and groaning about no middle ground. When you yourself are ignoring the middle ground in order to huff and puff and troll.

Blizzard could design in that middle ground, but they go for the gated long grind. Anyone who comments about those long grinds is told that it's either long grinds or piles of free stuff for no effort. There is a middle ground that could be designed in and there is a middle ground between either extreme when discussing better ways to implement feature.

But, since you asked, where is the middle ground you want me to see with how Blizz is implementing allied races? If there's some other way to unlock them, please tell me.

[The Anax]

I still like other parts of the game.
I think it's "ok" to voice your opinion on things you miss and parts that died along the years.

I will forever miss so many things removed from this game. Is it so wrong to share them?

No, it is not wrong. It would only be paradoxical/hypocritical to play WoW but complain about it.

[Deleted]

How does choosing to play in a "sub-optimal" way have anything to do with bringing back completely different eras of the game?

If I decide to level through questing instead of dungeons in Legion, NEITHER way will somehow magically alter the game back to Vanilla.
Whether you choose to fly or not, the game is still going to be Legion, regardless of if flying is optimal.
Whether you choose to use Xmog or not, the game is still going to be Legion. (how does using xmog or not have anything to do with optimal gameplay anyway!?)

This is two completely different topics and arguments. If your reasons for playing only in the most efficient and optimal ways is because the alternative is NOT having Vanilla-like gameplay....then....FFS. I don't even know. Your logic for this is way out in left field. I don't even.....

I'm just saying, even if i choose to play the "other way"...i will not bring back the community, feeling etc of those times. It will ofcourse be different and i will be doing it alone.

[SirCowdog]

What good is leveling in the outworld alone.
Walking in the ground when everyone else is flying.
Not transmoging when everyone else is transmoged.

You will be on you lonesome. Not only alone but also doing something sub-optimal.

Sounds fun...playing a Massive Multiplayer Game on your own little world of loneliness.

Holy crap..the bad logic and assumptions here are staggeringly bad.

What good is leveling in the open world alone? Maybe that's what you LIKE doing! MAYBE you should join a guild and makes some friends and level with them instead of assuming that everyone else in the game should cater to your personal preferences?

What good is walking on the ground when everyone else is flying? MAYBE because that's the experience you enjoy playing! Again, your personal preference of being efficient is NOT everyone else's problem, nor is it a fault or flaw of the game.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I still like other parts of the game.
I think it's "ok" to voice your opinion on things you miss and parts that died along the years.

I will forever miss so many things removed from this game. Is it so wrong to share them?

They didn't remove choice from the game. People choose to play the game according to "the old ways" all the time. You're just choosing to hinge your enjoyment of the game upon how everyone else can play it if what they choose doesn't match your nostalgic and highly warped views.

So, like I said, you having access to Legacy servers, won't stop you complaining.

[Ranganathan]

And it's not a "shitty part-time job". You yourself have chosen to play at a certain level, others seem quite capable of following the middle ground and are still seeing bosses go down at the highest difficulty before the content is outdated.

If you feel that playing the game is a "shitty part-time job", then you're probably not doing yourself a service trying to stick with the game at the very cutting edge level, which I'm assuming you're talking about here.

I'm not a hardcore raider, I'm casual AF and like it that way, which is one of the reasons why the rep grind bothers me. Other posters here are raiders though. You might be confusing me with them.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I'm just saying, even if i choose to play the "other way"...i will not bring back the community, feeling etc of those times. It will ofcourse be different and i will be doing it alone.

You're in for a nasty shock once Legacy servers open up.

Because guess what? People playing that content, do so with the mindset of players today. The community, reflects players of today. And no matter what, the feelings will be colored by the present reality.

Nostalgia is a cruel mistress.

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I'm not a hardcore raider, I'm casual AF and like it that way, which is one of the reasons why the rep grind bothers me. Other posters here are raiders though. You might be confusing me with them.

I'm a casual raider, HC and Mythic.

I haven't spent a single day in Legion "grinding" things. My Artifact weapons are maxed out, I have all the reps, all the profession patterns I care about etc etc.

So, you have even less foundation for your complaining than I initially thought you did.

[Deleted]

Holy crap..the bad logic and assumptions here are staggeringly bad.

What good is leveling in the open world alone? Maybe that's what you LIKE doing! MAYBE you should join a guild and makes some friends and level with them instead of assuming that everyone else in the game should cater to your personal preferences?

What good is walking on the ground when everyone else is flying? MAYBE because that's the experience you enjoy playing! Again, your personal preference of being efficient is NOT everyone else's problem, nor is it a fault or flaw of the game.

Everything you post...I mean LITERALLY everything you post Shadowpunkz, stems from a fundamental lack of ability to understand points of view other than your own. Christ...it's like a broken record. I'm done. I can't handle this level of willful ignorance any more.

You are also one with controversial opinions. Aren't you an advocate of flying everywhere? Blizzard doesn't share that opinion with you.

Look, i can choose to play "the way i enjoy"....but not really. Because the community is not there anymore.
People dont enjoy walking on the ground. People enjoy seeing everyone else walking on the ground

You are telling me if I choose to walk on the ground it will be the same as Vanilla when everyone else was walking on the ground?
You are telling me if i choose to not transmog it will be the same feeling like the times pre transmog?

It will not be the same! It will just be a poor replica of it. (-_-)

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They didn't remove choice from the game. People choose to play the game according to "the old ways" all the time. You're just choosing to hinge your enjoyment of the game upon how everyone else can play it if what they choose doesn't match your nostalgic and highly warped views.

So, like I said, you having access to Legacy servers, won't stop you complaining.

It will never be the same. If i decide to play "the way i like". It will never be the same without the community.
Aren't you the one saying "Classic servers" will not be the same?
How is it any different in this situation?
I can decide to not transmog....but lol, why? It will never recreate the times pre-transmog i liked.

[Spiral Mage]

Simply put,
It IS OPTIONAL. If you don't like it, "don't do it".
But the problem here is, well, there's what the Devs consider optional and what WE AS PLAYERS consider optional. Are the devs right? Do we HAVE TO DO IT? No, we don't HAVE TO.

But we have to weigh the price we'll pay for not doing it.
If the price is too high, then it isn't truly optional.

I always believe you should look to the community for the trends and what is considered optional/mandatory by the player-base. That isn't the end all of course but it absolutely needs to be taken into consideration.

[Maquegyver]

Gods. I am so tired of seeing this bandied about as if it were the end-all be-all of counter arguments.

It's not a counter argument. It's an affirmative defense. If you're on trial for murder and you say, "Yes, I killed them but here's my reason," that's an affirmative defense. You're admitting to the charges but saying it's acceptable because of something. In WoW and other MMOs, "it's optional" is an affirmative defense.

"This grind is so boring!"

"It's optional!"

You're not refuting that it's a boring ass grind, you're affirming that it's a boring ass grind. Yes, it's boring, but it's optional.

Literally everything in the game is optional. The problem is there's different levels of optional. Leveling is optional, but it's the only way to unlock content. Artifacts are enitrely optional, but they're also one of the primary focus points of the entire Legion expansion. You don't have to use them. But they're not as optional as say a vanity mount that takes months to grind out.

"It's optional" is a really dumb, meaningless, and hollow thing to say.

Pointing out that something in a video game is boring or takes too long is a perfectly valid criticism. Games should be fun. It's really not hard to figure out. A video game being boring is a flaw, not a feature. It would be great if people didn't pretend otherwise.

Admitting to murder is definitely a good apples to apples comparison to admitting something (a hobby btw) is boring... Yep. Outstanding breakdown you scholarly gentleman you.