Republican Tax Plan Revealed

[Gray_Matter]

the law will also reduce taxes for 80 percent of all US taxpayers, including 91 percent of the middle class. If any of this surprises you, you've been taken in by the Left's hyperbolic propaganda machine, which was operating in overdrive in a failed effort to kill the bill.

The issues are more that it reduces taxes by the upper class far more than the middle class. I am sure you will be able to find a few examples of companies that are giving one time bonuses and a few that are hiring more people or giving salary increases. My question is this. What percentage of the money that companies are saving is going to the employees and what percentage is going to the wealthy shareholders? Bear in mind that something like $59 billion of the personal tax reductions are going to people earning less than $100k per year and $259 billion to the vastly smaller number earning more than $100k per year. As you go up the salary brackets the figures become more and more disproportionate. With the top 0.01% saving well over $60 billion. They could easily have given far more back to the lower and middle class which would have contributed more to the economy because those people tend to spend any extra income rather than save it. None of the tax savings figures being bandied around are providing numbers for how much the mega rich (read donors) are going to save from the company tax rate drops and other "breaks" that they got.

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Pay for your own damn kids. Don't expect me to pay for them!!!

Unfortunately that doesn't work in an economy. You need to have people working at all wage levels and some of those wage levels aren't high enough for people to afford day care. Should poorer people not have children? If that's what you want then you will end up with an economy without any fast food or retail shops. Those jobs pay minimum wage. Without poorer people, your big mac would cost 10 times as much. Yes, all of that means that the filthy rich have to pay a bit more than those at the bottom and they get cheap labor in return for that. They get to shaft people by not paying for medical insurance and other benefits. The only alternative is to ship all of that offshore which will certainly hurt the economy a lot more. You should be grateful that you are better off than those less fortunate because those who are working 2 jobs aren't just doing it for a couple of years. It's a lifetime of that.

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Better than both parents absent because they put the kid in daycare from 7 am to 6 PM come home and eat dinner and then put them to bed

That's unfortunately what happens in life. My father died when I was 3 and I spent a good few years in day care while my mother worked her butt off. I count myself very lucky to be in my position in life. I don't begrudge people less fortunate than myself getting some benefits. Especially because upward mobility has all but stalled. In the past it was possible for people to move from lower to middle class or from middle to upper class. Now days it's close to impossible. That's why people are so angry. Not because they are unemployed but rather because they don't see upward mobility for their kids and their salaries have stagnated.

[Suporex]

Here's a fun trick.

Go find the current national yearly budget, and divide that by the population of taxpaying adults (Add companies and corporations if you really want to as well, but that won't bump up the number significantly).

Ok, done that?

Now, think about how much you pay in taxes, and realize how tiny it is compared to the national budget that's considered your "share".

You are getting far more out of the federal government than you are paying in (and I know you're not a billionaire), so people are actually paying for you. You keep screaming that "you" don't want to pay for other people, but that's kind of hilarious when you're not even paying for yourself.

So stop worrying about "paying for other people's stuff", because you're not even paying for your own, rofl.

That's a stupid way to look at it especially when a good portion of federal spending is on public assistance programs and a lot of people don't receive public assistance. You can argue social responsibility but not "you're not even paying for your own".

I think it's kind of funny when people with kids are complaining about their taxes going up when people who don't have kids ALREADY pay disproportionately higher taxes.

[Spectral]

Yes, they should. Like back in the "good old days" of the mid 1900's. <snip>

Are marginal rates on W-2 income intended to be treated as a serious representation of effective tax rates on the wealthiest Americans? I think you'll find that this is a much more useful way of representing this:



The core claim that the top payers pay a lower percentage remains intact when representing this correctly - so represent it correctly.

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I think it's kind of funny when people with kids are complaining about their taxes going up when people who don't have kids ALREADY pay disproportionately higher taxes.

Right, as someone that doesn't have kids, I'm both taxed at a higher rate and receive less in transfers. Maybe that's a good policy, but it's what presently happens and it'll still be what happens after the new tax law takes effect, just to a slightly lesser extent. Transferring less money from childless people to people with children isn't actually stealing from parents, which seems to be what people really believe is happening.

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I think he said he makes 60k after working there for several years, when saying Trump tax cut helps him... His pension seems good though...

Yeah, federal pensions for people that started sufficiently long ago are pretty baller. Not crazy money, but that security is great. Worth a ton of cash value. Using semi-standard formula, it makes sense to treat $40K/year in a pension as being equivalent to ~$1 million in a 401k.

My corporate overlords are pretty cool. Middle management is what I’m not really sure about...

Same. I have a pretty high opinion of the CEO at my company. Some of the middle management is cool too, but a non-trivial number of them are slick-talking dipshits with little or no interest in anything involving actual expertise. You know the type - B school, sociopathic, corporate climber, endless CYA and buzzwords, almost no substance.

[Antiganon]

Right, as someone that doesn't have kids, I'm both taxed at a higher rate and receive less in transfers. Maybe that's a good policy, but it's what presently happens and it'll still be what happens after the new tax law takes effect, just to a slightly lesser extent. Transferring less money from childless people to people with children isn't actually stealing from parents, which seems to be what people really believe is happening.

Rates are the same regardless of kids.

As of 2017 tax law, you count each dependent member of your household, including yourself and your spouse, as one exemption, worth a 4850 deduction in your adjusted gross income. The standard deduction is worth 6350 or 12700 if married. There is another filing status, head of household, that gets a bigger deduction than single but not as much as married.

As of 2018 tax law, the individual exemptions are removed, but the standard deduction is doubled. This means with one child, the expanded standard deduction is better. With two or more, the new tax plan raises your AGI without actually giving you any more money. Marginal rates are also reduced somewhat, which means a lower tax burden even with two kids.

Transfers are bigger towards families with children, that much is objectively true by any measure. I would posit that society is best served by children who are well educated and looked after, but that is a matter of opinion. It is more the sudden removal of transfers that are very beneficial to working families is just very jarring, and particularly with the failure to Renee CHIP, it comes off that Republicans don't care about working families at all, and if you're poor and have kids you might as well die in the street.

[mvaliz]

Pay for your own damn kids. Don't expect me to pay for them!!!

You know what would stop them from from you paying for kids (even though you're really not)?

Allowing parents to choose to get abortions or not if they can't afford them.

Bitch all you want about personal responsibility or how you believe rape rejects sperm or a stewed tomato with an black spot at the top is a human being or whatever your silly rejected notions are - Abortions still reduce taxpayer funded child care (oh, and also prevent possible future crime from the child having a poor upbringing).

So, why is it you think it's an absolute travesty and immoral to prevent a possible zygote from developing into a baby, but then believe it's an absolute travesty and immoral to help support said child if they need it the most since they were forced to be born due to your previous wants and desires?

[Edge-]

https://shareblue.com/trump-campaign...under-the-bus/

Site is shit, but check the sourced tweet. Wonder if we're going to see others publicly turning on high level members of the campaign/administration with the fire the book has clearly lit under both camps.

[Nadiru]

https://shareblue.com/trump-campaign...under-the-bus/

Site is shit, but check the sourced tweet. Wonder if we're going to see others publicly turning on high level members of the campaign/administration with the fire the book has clearly lit under both camps.

Posting Shareblue in the year of our lord 2018 grieves me, Edge. That said, Kushner's a schnook who should never have been in the position he's in. I'm perfectly fine with Kushner heading back to New York for the remainder of the administration.

[Edge-]

Posting Shareblue in the year of our lord 2018 grieves me, Edge. That said, Kushner's a schnook who should never have been in the position he's in. I'm perfectly fine with Kushner heading back to New York for the remainder of the administration.

Hence why I prefaced with "site is shit" : P

I'm well aware of how awful that site is and I usually avoid it like the plague, but every now and then they source something actually worth looking at.

[Ghostpanther]

Numbers are out

MAGA JOB CREATIONS...


OOPS, Trump fail.


2016 Jan-Dec Jobs created = 2.24m
2017 Jan- Dec Jobs created = 2.05m

9.3% lower then Obama last year.

So wait, i though he was MAGA? Thought all his PRO business rules were going to create more jobs? Tax breaks more jobs? Less regulations more jobs?

So what happened???



U.S. employers added 148,000 jobs in December
average job gains have slowed to 171,000 this year

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Remember those business awarding bonuses, expanding...creating all those jobs.
well one of them was comcast.....remember? right?


http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...-20180104.html


Comcast fired 500 employees right before the holidays while simultaneously claiming its new tax cut would help boost employment.

100 million in bonuses.....40 million saved by laying off 500+.


lol trickling all over 500 people during christmas! MAGA

You like to point out any negatives of Trump's economic progress and yet ignore the successes. Trump was elected in Nov 2016 and created a positive atmosphere in the stock market and businesses with his campaign pledge to kick start the economy with tax cuts and incentives to encourage company's to come back to America and thus many jobs were added in Dec. 2016.

And Trump still had 2 months at least of 3%+ GDP, which was better than the best year Obama ever had during his 8 years. :P But now, Trump is on his own when it comes to the GDP and we will see what his full 2018 year is going to be like with the tax cuts.

[Cthulhu 2020]

You like to point out any negatives of Trump's economic progress and yet ignore the successes. Trump was elected in Nov 2016 and created a positive atmosphere in the stock market and businesses with his campaign pledge to kick start the economy with tax cuts and incentives to encourage company's to come back to America and thus many jobs were added in Dec. 2016.

And Trump still had 2 months at least of 3%+ GDP, which was better than the best year Obama ever had during his 8 years. :P But now, Trump is on his own when it comes to the GDP and we will see what his full 2018 year is going to be like with the tax cuts.

Tax cuts won't affect 2018 economy FYI. This has been pointed out to you numerous times.

Also, Market improvement has been at a constant and steady rate and pretty much the same that it has been since 2010. Thanks Obama!

More companies have shipped jobs overseas than brought them back in the last year. All those jobs at Carrier, Delta, etc. that everyone likes to brag about were temporary, and have either already been terminated, or are going to be terminated soon.

The worst part is trying to fluff up Trump's "accomplishments" by saying that companies "feel" better about America. You basically admit Trump has done nothing at all but make people feel better and then give him credit as if he actually did anything.

We've been slashing taxes since the 70's, and for some odd reason, it was since the 70's, those very first massive tax cuts, that we started losing jobs en masse to overseas. Every time we slash taxes even more, even more good paying jobs are sent overseas or automated. You'd think that if tax cuts truly created jobs, we'd be rolling in GOOD PAYING jobs. But more people are on minimum wage than ever before.

So how low do we have to slash corporate taxes before we reach that sweet spot where good paying jobs start appearing?

8%?

4%?

0%?

Maybe we should just start throwing government money at these companies in hopes that a small fraction of what we give them trickles back down onto us.

[Nellise]

Tax cuts won't affect 2018 economy FYI. This has been pointed out to you numerous times.

Eh, you're not factoring in the irrationality of business executives. Many have stated they're more willing to invest not because of the tax cuts alone, but because they believe they'll be able to do whatever the fuck they want as Trump gets rid of regulations.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Eh, you're not factoring in the irrationality of business executives. Many have stated they're more willing to invest not because of the tax cuts alone, but because they believe they'll be able to do whatever the fuck they want as Trump gets rid of regulations.

True, but again, this just means that when common sense regulations are either NOT REMOVED or simply put back in place after they are removed, it will cause a market slump.

Trumpanzees seem worried about 10k more in their retirement account, when ultimately it will all just be temporary. It seems their only lasting take-away victory from Trump's presidency will be that they got to say that they trolled liberals.

[Lenonis]

You like to point out any negatives of Trump's economic progress and yet ignore the successes.

Kind of like how we've had to hear nothing but "labor for participation" and "stagnant wages" for the 8 years under Obama? Suck it up -- your turn. Since your ilk refuse to acknowledge any of your rampant hypocrisy on every single issue then you really have no room to complain about...well...anything really.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Kind of like how we've had to hear nothing but "labor for participation" and "stagnant wages" for the 8 years under Obama? Suck it up -- your turn. Since your ilk refuse to acknowledge any of your rampant hypocrisy on every single issue then you really have no room to complain about...well...anything really.

Under Obama and 2016 election:

"Stock market doesn't mean anything for the common man!"
"Wall street Ted and Shillary don't care about the common man, they just care about big business!"
"Wages are stagnant and over 90% of job gains are part time!"

Under Trump who's done nothing but make people feel good:

"ECONOMY IS AMAZING LOOK AT THAT BOOMING STOCK MARKET!"
"Jobs are coming back to the USA, just look at how many jobs are coming to America" -Said about jobs that have either been temporary or ended up getting shipped to China/Mexico
"Economy is surging more than it ever has since the 90's!" -Obama had better years than Trump


But really the one that gets me the most is how much Trumpanzees whined about Wall Street Ted and Shillary and how they didn't care about the common man, and now they're jerking off over massive cuts to big business taxes that basically does nothing to very little for 95% of America. But Ghost Panther has a few thousand more dollars in his retirement account and Supertony is going to save 2k on his taxes this year, so thumbs up for a couple of thousand in their pockets while their wages remain stagnant as compared to inflation. Oh you got a 3% raise this year? That's cute darling, get back to me when your salary starts rapidly expanding above the "value" that it was last year.

[Lenonis]

But really the one that gets me the most is how much Trumpanzees whined about Wall Street Ted and Shillary and how they didn't care about the common man, and now they're jerking off over massive cuts to big business taxes that basically does nothing to very little for 95% of America.

Not to mention how often we heard that all the numbers were fake. Until Trump was election then they all magically were real again.

What is concerning to me is that I think that some people actually don't even see what they are doing. And knowing that there are people who are so self-unaware and so shallow in their thinking that they can't even see that they are accusing the left of doing the exact same thing they were doing, if not worse, is rather frightening. Mainly because people who are that easily mislead are also people who can be coaxed into believing more extreme things that can lead to more extreme behavior. We've seen the radicalization of some right leaning posters on these forums and for every person like that here there are thousands if not more out there.

Anyway, I just can't just ignore it anymore and I refuse to acknowledge any posters that starts their post with a completely hypocritical unaware statement.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Not to mention how often we heard that all the numbers were fake. Until Trump was election then they all magically were real again.

What is concerning to me is that I think that some people actually don't even see what they are doing. And knowing that there are people who are so self-unaware and so shallow in their thinking that they can't even see that they are accusing the left of doing the exact same thing they were doing, if not worse, is rather frightening. Mainly because people who are that easily mislead are also people who can be coaxed into believing more extreme things that can lead to more extreme behavior. We've seen the radicalization of some right leaning posters on these forums and for every person like that here there are thousands if not more out there.

Anyway, I just can't just ignore it anymore and I refuse to acknowledge any posters that starts their post with a completely hypocritical unaware statement.

Pretty much. I haven't seen anyone mention the "real" unemployment rate since the election.

Thing is, they are completely unaware, because all they're doing is parroting what the talking heads say on TV. The "real unemployment" bullshit all came from Fox News/Breitbart. People can swear up and down all day, "I don't watch Fox news/read Breitbart!" but at the end of the day, that's ultimately the SOURCE for their bullshit arguments and crying about stuff like the real unemployment rate. They may have seen one of their friends use it as an argument on a facebook post, or seen someone use it here as an argument and then they start using it cause it sounds good.

So they can claim all they want to that they don't listen to the talking heads in conservative media, but that's ultimately where all of their silly arguments have come from. They're being lead around on a collar, saying whatever the talking heads say.

Whenever Trump or his cronies do something stupid, it usually takes a day or so before lockedout, bucksparkles, satimy, or one of our many conservative shills to come on here. And sure enough, I check, and the arguments they use come from 4chan/thedonald/facebook arguments... and those ultimately themselves come from fox news. However with Breitbart and Fox turning on Trump, their arguments are now coming from basically Trump himself, which makes them look EVEN DUMBER.

Bannon is now suddenly enemy #1, and everyone is claiming they never liked him, when Bannon was the conservative darling before he left the White House.

[Lenonis]

Whenever Trump or his cronies do something stupid, it usually takes a day or so before (let's not name and shame) one of our many conservative shills to come on here.

I've also noticed that they seem to be unable to post without trolling or flaming these days. Is that just me? I mean...it's almost like clockwork where they all come back, post maybe 5-10 posts before they go on vacation again, then we get the second wave of sockpuppets who last another couple hours then it gets quiet for a day or two. I don't remember the cycle being that short -- they more extreme conservatives would be here for a couple days before it escalated to the point where they flamed their way to their next vacation.

That sort of radicalization and extreme behavior is what concerns me -- in terms of what it represents. I don't really remember a time when posters suggested violence against other posters until recently, and I've seen it a few times now.

I know a handful of posters here are just parody accounts but I also feel they represent what is legitimately out there in society.

Anyway this is probably offtopic and getting close to discussing moderation so I'll drop it now. Just wish someone would be willing to have a civil discussion about what exactly has made them more and more extreme in their views. I'd really like to know.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I've also noticed that they seem to be unable to post without trolling or flaming these days. Is that just me? I mean...it's almost like clockwork where they all come back, post maybe 5-10 posts before they go on vacation again, then we get the second wave of sockpuppets who last another couple hours then it gets quiet for a day or two. I don't remember the cycle being that short -- they more extreme conservatives would be here for a couple days before it escalated to the point where they flamed their way to their next vacation.

That sort of radicalization and extreme behavior is what concerns me -- in terms of what it represents. I don't really remember a time when posters suggested violence against other posters until recently, and I've seen it a few times now.

I know a handful of posters here are just parody accounts but I also feel they represent what is legitimately out there in society.

Anyway this is probably offtopic and getting close to discussing moderation so I'll drop it now. Just wish someone would be willing to have a civil discussion about what exactly has made them more and more extreme in their views. I'd really like to know.

Yeah I've noticed it too. They've barely been offering any arguments. They just throw out some typical arguments or deflection that have nothing to do with the topic at hand, and either insult people and get banned, or go "oh I didn't know you were this stupid, ignored" and don't come back to the thread.

It's almost as if Fox and Breitbart (and other outlets) having no real counter for Trump's bullshit (because they've turned on him) is having a drastic effect on their ability to parrot arguments... since none exist for them to parrot out.

[Dontrike]

You like to point out any negatives of Trump's economic progress and yet ignore the successes. Trump was elected in Nov 2016 and created a positive atmosphere in the stock market and businesses with his campaign pledge to kick start the economy with tax cuts and incentives to encourage company's to come back to America and thus many jobs were added in Dec. 2016.

And Trump still had 2 months at least of 3%+ GDP, which was better than the best year Obama ever had during his 8 years. :P But now, Trump is on his own when it comes to the GDP and we will see what his full 2018 year is going to be like with the tax cuts.

You say he created a positive atmosphere, but what did he do to do that before these massive tax cuts? What exactly did he do?

[Nellise]

You say he created a positive atmosphere, but what did he do to do that before these massive tax cuts? What exactly did he do?

Companies love that he's removing regulations and has little or no intention of creating new ones. You've also got stuff like this going on: https://theintercept.com/2017/12/28/...erfund-program where companies probably know they can exploit these people who have no experience in the positions they're given.

Whether it's smart to do any of this is a different question, but companies are responding to it (at least publicly).