US Federal Government Shutdown

[Kraenen]

But, what if planet of the apes or terminator scenario happened? Wouldn’t it be monkeys and robots? Which, you have to admit would have been much cooler than any people.

Not sure what your point is. There's just no way black people could've won their rights without the help of white people, like he/she felt was the case.

[Ragedaug]

When he said the shutdown was the president's fault in 2013.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...down-resurface

That's 2013. I'm talking about the current one. 2013 was Republican Congress against the President who wouldn't sign what they were proposing. This budget isn't on the president's desk yet. It's still the Dems & Pubs in the Senate fighting. The Pubs can't get enough votes to pass anything to put on Trump's desk.

My guess is Trump will sign whatever they send him.


As far as "who's fault is a government shutdown", you start with the 2 parties that are fighting about it. So techincallly it's both of their faults as neither is willing to concede to the other. Democrats believe all their ideas should get passed, so they blame the Pubs for being unreasonable, and the Pubs think all their ideas should get passed, so they will naturally blame all the Dems for being unreasonable.

If you can separate yourself from the politics of the situation the answer would probably be, the side which is compromising less has more blame for not reaching a deal. But then again, it doesn't matter as the base that votes for that side supports that their side is holding out and not compromising, just like the base for the other side doesn't want their side to compromise on their beliefs.

[Felya]

Not sure what your point is. There's just no way black people could've won their rights without the help of white people, like he/she felt was the case.

My point is there is a way they could have been freed, without help of white people. My way was to make fun of it, because I assumed you were joking. So, I went with robots and monkeys, killing off their captors... but, since you are not joking...

There is a way slaves could have been freed without white people. If enough of those who owned slaves were black... that way, it wouldn’t be white people, but Americans... right?

[Spiffums]

Obviously none have, because Trump rejected the deal before it was put on the floor. The Republican leadership won't agree to a bill that he does not, so that offer never made it to the floor to begin with. Getting 60 votes in the Senate for a compromise is hard enough, getting two thirds in House and Senate to overrule a presidential veto is pretty much impossible.
Politics is nuanced. Just because the President has not refused a bill laid right before him does not mean he is not involved. Given the sway that his word holds in the Republican party, he is the most important player right now.

So there was their mistake. Put it to floor get it passed and put the ball in his court. Right now it's in Congress's end of the court and they look like a monkey screwing a football.

[Kraenen]

My point is there is a way they could have been freed, without help of white people. My way was to make fun of it, because I assumed you were joking. So, I went with robots and monkeys, killing off their captors... but, since you are not joking...

There is a way slaves could have been freed without white people. If enough of those who owned slaves were black... that way, it wouldn’t be white people, but Americans... right?

What way is that? You're putting the cart before the horse dude. How could someone own a slave if they weren't free or had any rights to own a slave in the first place? They would be freed by a white person.

[Spiffums]

They cant put a budget forward because they don't have 60 votes in the senate again our system requires the minority party to have input unless you garnish a super majority. The Democrats did it to Bush the Republicans did it to Obama and now the Democrats are doing it to Trump. The 60 vote threshold must be eliminated so the party in power can govern

So you're saying it's not Trumps fault? But the media and the political geniuses on here have assured us that it is in fact Trumps fault.

[GennGreymane]

I guess I spend too much time at my computer to be a manly man. I'm fairly athletic in games such as basketball, I think that should boost my man score.

nah, i dont think so.

[Macaquerie]

Not sure what your point is. There's just no way black people could've won their rights without the help of white people, like he/she felt was the case.

Of course there was a way, it would have just been a particularly bloody and destructive way that would've seen a lot of innocent people caught up in the crossfire. Contemporary whites saw what had gone down in the shithole known as Haiti a few decades earlier, and decided that emancipation was a good way to get out in front of this inevitability and save their own asses.

It's a cliche by this point, but you just can't keep people down forever. Their determination to resist oppression is always going to overpower your willingness to keep exploiting them.

[Machismo]

That's 2013. I'm talking about the current one. 2013 was Republican Congress against the President who wouldn't sign what they were proposing. This budget isn't on the president's desk yet. It's still the Dems & Pubs in the Senate fighting. The Pubs can't get enough votes to pass anything to put on Trump's desk.

My guess is Trump will sign whatever they send him.


As far as "who's fault is a government shutdown", you start with the 2 parties that are fighting about it. So techincallly it's both of their faults as neither is willing to concede to the other. Democrats believe all their ideas should get passed, so they blame the Pubs for being unreasonable, and the Pubs think all their ideas should get passed, so they will naturally blame all the Dems for being unreasonable.

If you can separate yourself from the politics of the situation the answer would probably be, the side which is compromising less has more blame for not reaching a deal. But then again, it doesn't matter as the base that votes for that side supports that their side is holding out and not compromising, just like the base for the other side doesn't want their side to compromise on their beliefs.

There's one problem, a plan did go to the President's desk, and he shot it down. Like Trump said, it's the President's fault. After all, that's what Trump said, and I wouldn't want for him to be a liar.

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So you're saying it's not Trumps fault? But the media and the political geniuses on here have assured us that it is in fact Trumps fault.

Even Trump said it was the President's fault.

[Felya]

So there was their mistake. Put it to floor get it passed and put the ball in his court. Right now it's in Congress's end of the court and they look like a monkey screwing a football.

This wouldn’t be happening if the old fashioned filibuster was back. That way, RNC can put it up for a vote, to force democrats to stand and talk for the duration of the time the bill isn’t signed or discarded. This would mean democrats, would be standing there and talking about why government should be shut down, while anyone could point to CSPAN and say... there... this is who to blame...

Trump supported this on the campaign trail. Why hasn’t he done anything about it? Why has he kept filibuster procedural, if he knew this would happen?

[Kraenen]

Of course there was a way, it would have just been a particularly bloody and destructive way that would've seen a lot of innocent people caught up in the crossfire. Contemporary whites saw what had gone down in the shithole known as Haiti a few decades earlier, and decided that emancipation was a good way to get out in front of this inevitability and save their own asses.

It's a cliche by this point, but you just can't keep people down forever. Their determination to resist oppression is always going to overpower your willingness to keep exploiting them.

Which I think is shifting the goal posts. You're saying whites would free them, but after a lot of blood, which doesn't really counter what I said. For minorities to have taken rights for themselves they'd have to have taken over the government militarily or something similar.

I don't think he black population could really carry out much of a slaughter in the US, more likely the reverse.

[Ragedaug]

So you're saying it's not Trumps fault? But the media and the political geniuses on here have assured us that it is in fact Trumps fault.

That's because most people are sheeple who believe whatever their news channel of choice tells them. Trump has no dog in this race, yet he gets the blame for something he has no control over.

The funnier part (to me anyway), is for all Trump's bluster, he doesn't understand the political machine of Washington and will sign whatever they put in front of him. He'll end up being the only person not slowing this process down.

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This wouldn’t be happening if the old fashioned filibuster was back. That way, RNC can put it up for a vote, to force democrats to stand and talk for the duration of the time the bill isn’t signed or discarded. This would mean democrats, would be standing there and talking about why government should be shut down, while anyone could point to CSPAN and say... there... this is who to blame...

Trump supported this on the campaign trail. Why hasn’t he done anything about it? Why has he kept filibuster procedural, if he knew this would happen?

That's not really how that works. The RNC has already put it up for vote, but don't have enough to put it through. The Dems have no need to filibuster it.

[Felya]

What way is that? You're putting the cart before the horse dude. How could someone own a slave if they weren't free or had any rights to own a slave in the first place? They would be freed by a white person.

Uhm... If black people could own slaves, that means that slaves wouldn’t be owned by white people. That way you wouldn’t be able to say that it was white people who freed them. Yes, slaves needed people who actually counted as American citizens, to take action. The exclusivity, is the result of them being slaves. What you are saying is pretty fucking horrible...

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That's not really how that works. The RNC has already put it up for vote, but don't have enough to put it through. The Dems have no need to filibuster it.

They don’t have 60, they claim to have 51. Needing 60, is the procedural filibuster.

[Ragedaug]

There's one problem, a plan did go to the President's desk, and he shot it down. Like Trump said, it's the President's fault. After all, that's what Trump said, and I wouldn't want for him to be a liar.

Nope. The Senate hasn't signed a plan to send to his desk. Sooooooo how could the president shot down something that doesn't exist?

Even Trump said it was the President's fault.

Yeah, but he didn't. If you mean, did Trump say something that isnt' the thing we are talking about the President's fault? Sure. Did Trump say the thing we are talking about the president's fault? No he didn't.

[Felya]

Yeah, but he didn't. If you mean, did Trump say something that isnt' the thing we are talking about the President's fault? Sure. Did Trump say the thing we are talking about the president's fault? No he didn't.

Are you quoting Sessions from the Russian investigation hearing?

[Machismo]

Nope. The Senate hasn't signed a plan to send to his desk. Sooooooo how could the president shot down something that doesn't exist?




Yeah, but he didn't. If you mean, did Trump say something that isnt' the thing we are talking about the President's fault? Sure. Did Trump say the thing we are talking about the president's fault? No he didn't.

They went to him with a plan that they liked, and he said he would not sign it, after he said he would sign any deal.

Yeah, but he really did. he tried to blame Obama for the last shutdown, saying it's the President's job to make the deal. So, by his own words, it's the President's fault.

[Kraenen]

Uhm... If black people could own slaves, that means that slaves wouldn’t be owned by white people. That way you wouldn’t be able to say that it was white people who freed them. Yes, slaves needed people who actually counted as American citizens, to take action. The exclusivity, is the result of them being slaves. What you are saying is pretty fucking horrible...

Sure, if black people were already freedmen in the first place. What hypothetical universe are you dreaming of where a sizeable chunk of black Americans were simply never oppressed in the first place?

Why is it horrible? It's simply acknowledging the (or just one) extent of slavery and oppression in America. I guess that offends your sensibilities about America's past?

[Ragedaug]

They don’t have 60, they claim to have 51. Needing 60, is the procedural filibuster.

I think you are thinking of Reconcillliation, not filibustering. In this case, they only have 50 votes, so they can't pass it on Reconcilliation. If they had 51 votes, the Democrats couldn't filibuster it because of Reconcilliation, it would just pass.

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They went to him with a plan that they liked, and he said he would not sign it, after he said he would sign any deal.

Trump will 100% sign the plan they can't pass in the Senate.

Yeah, but he really did. he tried to blame Obama for the last shutdown, saying it's the President's job to make the deal. So, by his own words, it's the President's fault.

That's because the Pubs sent a bill to Obama in 2013, so it was Congressional Pubs vs the Dem President. In this case the President (Trump) will not refuse to sign whatever the Pub congress puts in front of him. The problem is that the Senate Pubs can't get 51 votes.

[Felya]

I think you are thinking of Reconcillliation, not filibustering. In this case, they only have 50 votes, so they can't pass it on Reconcilliation. If they had 51 votes, the Democrats couldn't filibuster it because of Reconcilliation, it would just pass.

It’s really hard not to give you shit right now...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster

[Machismo]

I think you are thinking of Reconcillliation, not filibustering. In this case, they only have 50 votes, so they can't pass it on Reconcilliation. If they had 51 votes, the Democrats couldn't filibuster it because of Reconcilliation, it would just pass.

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Trump will 100% sign the plan they can't pass in the Senate.


That's because the Pubs sent a bill to Obama in 2013, so it was Congressional Pubs vs the Dem President. In this case the President (Trump) will not refuse to sign whatever the Pub congress puts in front of him. The problem is that the Senate Pubs can't get 51 votes.

Well, since Trump has already lied, I don't believe him. There was a bipartisan plan worked out, and Trump refused it, and said he wouldn't sign such a plan... and as Trump said, it's on the President. It's a shame he can't be more consistent.