Work - Would you like it to see it become obsolete?

[kail]

Yeah, what would all those fast food workers, cashiers, waitresses, etc do if they didn't have to work. I think a good percentage of people would end up still working just to have something to do. Now I want to go out and ask people in those jobs what they'd do if they didn't have to work lol.

You think they'd prefer their original job?

[yetgdhfgh]

you don't see the contradiction in this sentence?

Ironically we could make machines who could make those repairs

But then who looks after those robots.

My point is where do we draw the line when it comes to automation?

If people want everyone to work then maybe we need to smash most of the machines or just accept that we are on our way to fully automation and the end of 'work' as we now know it!

[melodramocracy]

It’s not fact. First statement is basically saying it’s a pessimistic view of work for wage comparing it to owning or renting people. Nobody is forcing people to work, but in the real world...in reality food, shelter etc isn’t free. So to live you must contribute. Money exists on a philosophical level to track your contributions to the society. Why wouldn’t we award the biggest contributors?

And philosophical level is where that notion stops. At its core, money exists to give you complete control over where to focus the 'fruits of your labor' as it were. It replaces a barter system, and is far more powerful because money is agreed upon to be used for anything, where as a trade system severely limits both parties in a financial arrangement. It has no relation at all to your contribution to society.

The contribution factor comes into play with you as an individual being forced to pay for shelter, food, etc, and therefore taxes along the way. It's in this way that people believe themselves to be wage slaves, and they're correct in that regard.

[Endus]

How do you presume that economical shift plays out? Also the assumption that people will just fall into a state of doing more fulfilling work isn’t realistic. Especially when our problems are being solved by machines. I mean it’s going to be a huge transition, one I don’t think humanity should take lightly.

It's going to happen regardless. We can either prep society for it proactively, or we can watch the economy collapse and mass starvation ensue as the consumer class collapses in upon itself. The only real alternative to that is some massive global war or disease outbreak that kills off most of the population worldwide, but that's just skipping straight to the death toll, really.

We don't even have to move away from a consumption-based market economy to achieve this.

Yeah, what would all those fast food workers, cashiers, waitresses, etc do if they didn't have to work. I think a good percentage of people would end up still working just to have something to do. Now I want to go out and ask people in those jobs what they'd do if they didn't have to work lol.

I'm gonna use existing stuff in hypothesizing, while recognizing that in a few decades these specific examples will have changed beyond recognizability.

They won't be working at wage labor, since you won't need fast food workers, cashiers, waitresses, at least not at most places. It'll be a high-end luxury service, with those staff compensated accordingly.

But when you add in work like writing fiction or blogs or whatever, streaming on Twitch, handcrafting things for sale, pursuing a singing or acting career, all that stuff, you'll see an explosion there. Academia will likely prosper as people who want to research are free to just do research, without teaching/admin obligations at their institutions, just a shared agreement that the institution gets the share in the results in exchange for the use of their systems and contacts.

We're an industrious species. We don't handle being idle very well. But we can eliminate the bullshit work that needs doing, and let people enjoy the work they find fulfilling, even if it's not necessarily remunerative.

The example I like to use is Van Gogh. He was destitute almost his entire life, supported by family. His paintings were panned and nobody bought them. Today, he's recognized as one of the greatest artists who ever lived. I foresee a society that's willing to support thousands of bad artists because we might get a few more Van Goghs out of it.

[chazus]

We honestly are so close to the dreams of the 1950s where we was told we would no longer need to work cause machines could do it all for us.

We are far, far, far away from that. We're closer to the 1950s than we are to 50% automation.

the rise of driverless trucks

Wouldn't exactly call that a beacon of automation by any stretch.

That said, eventually we'll get to a point where it will deal with easier chores that don't require critical decision making

[Drusin]

You think they'd prefer their original job?

You know I think maybe some would oddly enough lol just because they already know how to do the work. Maybe they'd do it less, maybe they'd get bored sitting at home and come in to Target or wherever and ring some people up and talk with customers for human interaction.

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But then who looks after those robots.

The people who want to work still

[yetgdhfgh]

We have made strides making our lives easier i mean the washing machine, dish washer, every creature comfort you can think off but for some reason people think we should strive for a society where everyone must work even when machines can produce everything we need and deliver it to our doorsteps!

I know the real reason this cant be and its because of greed and showmanship after all can a robot produce a million dollar yachts for everyone? Maybe it could but whats the point when everyone owns one!

It seems humans society will always be a massive ego trip and thus the reason our society is doomed to failure.

[Deleted]

As my ex-guild master put it; I'll consider working when there's 6-hour workdays and you can choose how your tax money is spent.

[ddengster]

Sure I would. I'm looking towards a future where humanity works towards a Matrix-like world, in which we devote our bodily heat for profit while submerging in some alternate VR gaming world.

One unfortunate thing resulting from this is that we'll likely loose some of the drive in new endeavors since we have a monetary feed to fall back on. Humanity will take more risks, sure, but without that drive they might not do as well in them.

[TheDestinatus]

Would you like to live in a world where no one knows how to do anything?

[melodramocracy]

Wage labor as the foundational basis of the economy is doomed. Not "work". As automation improves, we'll need less and less human staff members to manage the productivity demands of society, which frees the population up to do more useful or pleasant things.

Doesn't mean people won't work, but they'll do work they find fulfilling, rather than bullshit they do just to afford their basic standard of living.

The flaw herehere is that unless the work that you find fulfilling puts food on the table (and for most people it won't), there will still need to be a significant support system in place that will effectively be painted as unsustainable.

In simplest terms, true automation breaks the monetary cycle, because robots are neither customers nor taxpayers.

As tech advances and allows for higher consumption rates of the fruits of an undertaking, and (equally importantly) as larger numbers of people undertake a given venture, the worth of said undertaking absolutely decreases. Most costs of living do not follow this rule.

[Stonecloak]

And philosophical level is where that notion stops. At its core, money exists to give you complete control over where to focus the 'fruits of your labor' as it were. It replaces a barter system, and is far more powerful because money is agreed upon to be used for anything, where as a trade system severely limits both parties in a financial arrangement. It has no relation at all to your contribution to society.

The contribution factor comes into play with you as an individual being forced to pay for shelter, food, etc, and therefore taxes along the way. It's in this way that people believe themselves to be wage slaves, and they're correct in that regard.

You're not forced. That’s where there argument ends. Nobody’s holding a gun to your head, but if you want to enjoy the benefits of a modern day capitalist society, then yea you’d have to play by its rules. It’s a catch 22, that’s why people struggle with the notion so much. You can, and there is people living in communes, and off the land. So you also can survive off the grid, but most people prefer the opposite, rightfully so imo.

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Would you like to live in a world where no one knows how to do anything?

Look at how we depend on machines now. When there’s advanced AI, and most things are automated. I have a feeling that’s when we will really feel like slaves, and I don’t see us gelling with that kind of lifestyle at all, but regardless that’s where it’s headed whether it’s good or not.

[yetgdhfgh]

Look at the advancements in just the last 20 years and tell me what you think we are heading too!

I see stores stock to the brim in areas that cant even afford to shop there so do we just keep making stuff and throwing it away? Do we keep allowing automation to take millions of jobs away or do we just accept the march of technology and just embrace it and allow it to shape a new society?

[melodramocracy]

You're not forced. That’s where there argument ends. Nobody’s holding a gun to your head, but if you want to enjoy the benefits of a modern day capitalist society, then yea you’d have to play by its rules. It’s a catch 22, that’s why people struggle with the notion so much. You can, and there is people living in communes, and off the land. So you also can survive off the grid, but most people prefer the opposite, rightfully so imo.

If you want to be considered an active member of society, yes. You're forced. Otherwise you're a) homless or b) incarcerated. Folks on communes absolutely do pay taxes.

[rewhaha]

it's funny how desperately people cling to the notion that work is the reason for living. I'll never understand why... cognitive dissonance i guess. people would have to acknowledge that their lives are essentially pointless without taking some sort of pride in their work.

[Endus]

The flaw herehere is that unless the work that you find fulfilling puts food on the table (and for most people it won't), there will still need to be a significant support system in place that will effectively be painted as unsustainable.

That's not a "flaw". I explicitly stated it would be required. We'll need a Basic Income system at some point, or the existing system will collapse, and/or we'll shift completely away from a consumer-based economy to something even weirder.

Wage labor only makes sense as a foundation of the economy if productivity is tied to wage labor. With increasing automation, that's less and less true. If we can maintain productivity without labor, we need to ensure consumers are getting funds with which to consume in some other way. Or the economy collapses.

In a consumer-based economy, consumers have value solely by consuming. Contributing to productivity via labor is an option, and one that's increasingly less needed, which is what's causing the issue.

[kail]

You know I think maybe some would oddly enough lol just because they already know how to do the work. Maybe they'd do it less, maybe they'd get bored sitting at home and come in to Target or wherever and ring some people up and talk with customers for human interaction.

You apparently never worked in retail. But sure, there will be a few that actually enjoy it and other menial jobs. If they want to do that, more power to them. Most others will spend their lives in entertainment or pursue a hobby/field that would normally be risky in today's world.

[Masark]

Wouldn't exactly call that a beacon of automation by any stretch.

When it's one of the largest professions in the USA and has very large secondary effects, it's a pretty fair beacon.

[Stonecloak]

If you want to be considered an active member of society, yes. You're forced. Otherwise you're a) homless or b) incarcerated. Folks on communes absolutely do pay taxes.

Yes, you’re right they do pay taxes, but you can make the argument they function in a way where people don’t “work” in the same way. So, it is an alternative. Just not one that completely removes work from the equation, no situation will in our current state.

So, if work is an inevitable human circumstance, then how does that equate to slavery?

[Drusin]

You apparently never worked in retail. But sure, there will be a few that actually enjoy it and other menial jobs. If they want to do that, more power to them. Most others will spend their lives in entertainment or pursue a hobby/field that would normally be risky in today's world.

I worked for CircuitCity in 2007 and Verizon after that. I didn't mind talking with customers because all I do everyday is think/talk/design technology stuff.