Rogue 8.0 Discussion

[Dmitro]

we've got a stronger cooldown, and we're getting find weakness back, is that not enough?
does anything major really need to change? the current state of sub is pretty good.

not really, our non-rotation abilities were pruned in wod and legion, would like to ahve them back, like gouge for example.

[shaunika123]

not really, our non-rotation abilities were pruned in wod and legion, would like to ahve them back, like gouge for example.

oh I'm with you on that one.

gouge is my favourite ability in the game.
but it really has very fringe uses in raiding, pvp is dead so mostly it'd be mythic+

as far as raiding goes, sub is pretty crisp atm (outside of a few issues with DFA)

[Deleted]

not really, our non-rotation abilities were pruned in wod and legion, would like to ahve them back, like gouge for example.

Having just one actual attack button out of stealth (as sub) just feels bad.
Gouge might be alright for sin, since it is the spec with the least amount of utility. Having gouge, on top of all the utility and mobility sub has, would be insane, though.

Rogue must be one of the specs that was least affected by the prune though, so let's not get our hopes up that BfA will roll some of that back.

[Naiattavain]

How do you guys think about the alpha/beta changes so far?

Title should have been discussion*

i have opted in for beta tests for world of Warcraft but i have not received an invite to beta/alpha.

umm i hope blizzard this time around will make very high quality spell books since that is what everyone is complaining about mostly. poor quality spell books in legion. artifact and spell book are the same thing idk why they fuck it up every time

[vxjt]

Plus, factor in the Blade Flurry change with a charge system and Outlaw is looking very clunky right now. The reduction in energy cost to Saber Slash is probably the only positive I can say about Outlaw in BFA right now on paper.

I'm super worried about Outlaw too. Aside from the terrible Blade Flurry change, our ranged damage is being lowered disproportionately more than our melee damage. I don't know why they feel Outlaw does too much range damage, we aren't topping melee charts in ranged favored fights and the range attacks are nice to use in world pve. It's nice having them do a little damage, adds some flavor to the class.

I think the increased combat potency proc rate will be nice to help against those extended periods of starvation, but the saber cost reduction won't matter as much as when we have energy we have it in spades. I find that we're GCD locked or completely starved, there's very little in between unless we have Flurry up.

Going back to Blade Flurry, I don't see where we're getting the AOE damage we lose from it. 20% more energy regen doesn't make up for 60% reduced uptime. It might be interesting if they make Blade Flurry be affected by Relentless Blades, but that's still an extra button I have to keep pressing and it's even worse if that button takes up a GCD.

So, more stable energy, baseline mobility, and lower cooldowns as a plus, but less AOE with more micromanagement and less relative ranged damage as a minus. I don't know about this one Blizz.

[Mafic]

I'm super worried about Outlaw too. Aside from the terrible Blade Flurry change, our ranged damage is being lowered disproportionately more than our melee damage. I don't know why they feel Outlaw does too much range damage, we aren't topping melee charts in ranged favored fights and the range attacks are nice to use in world pve. It's nice having them do a little damage, adds some flavor to the class.

I think the increased combat potency proc rate will be nice to help against those extended periods of starvation, but the saber cost reduction won't matter as much as when we have energy we have it in spades. I find that we're GCD locked or completely starved, there's very little in between unless we have Flurry up.

Going back to Blade Flurry, I don't see where we're getting the AOE damage we lose from it. 20% more energy regen doesn't make up for 60% reduced uptime. It might be interesting if they make Blade Flurry be affected by Relentless Blades, but that's still an extra button I have to keep pressing and it's even worse if that button takes up a GCD.

So, more stable energy, baseline mobility, and lower cooldowns as a plus, but less AOE with more micromanagement and less relative ranged damage as a minus. I don't know about this one Blizz.

They are trying to go back to an old BF design paradigm but the game has moved on from that which is why I am skeptical of this working. I also think the 45e Saber Slash is to provide players options regarding gear and talents, but that is up for debate.

[Boil]

I say drop the whole Outlaw theme & the associated Pirate tomfoolery, give us Combat back in the guise of a Highwayman theme; maybe take it a bit further & have a tiered option for Dual Pistols (bladed flintlocks) & becoming a melee / ranged hybrid...?!?

[RobertoCarlos]

I say drop the whole Outlaw theme & the associated Pirate tomfoolery, give us Combat back in the guise of a Highwayman theme; maybe take it a bit further & have a tiered option for Dual Pistols (bladed flintlocks) & becoming a melee / ranged hybrid...?!?

Last time blizz gave rogue ranged with Shuriken Toss it didnt last an expansion.

[Deleted]

I say drop the whole Outlaw theme & the associated Pirate tomfoolery, give us Combat back in the guise of a Highwayman theme; maybe take it a bit further & have a tiered option for Dual Pistols (bladed flintlocks) & becoming a melee / ranged hybrid...?!?

How about no. I play Outlaw BECAUSE it's Pirate themed. Especially now we are getting Buccaneer transmog and Parrot mounts.

[Naiattavain]

I love gloomblade. Why this hasn't happened yet baffles me.

im using gloomblade my set now seems good to trade on talent selection.

[Master Guns]

People aren't asking blizzard to remove RTB. People are asking them to fix it. Big difference.

[RobertoCarlos]

Outlaw needs a lot of work, it feels so stiff to play. Grappling hook needs some love, its such a crappy ability to use when it should feel great.

Roll the bones can go fuck off. No random buffs isnt compelling gameplay no matter how much you want to pretend it is.

[shoegazing]

If they aren’t replacing deeper shadows with fw? Sub becomes even more burst reliant, even more reliant on dfa and SoD burst windows executed flawlessly. Not too appealing. Maybe with fw we can drop deeper shadows for high fw uptime, i liked that rotation back in early/mid legion.

Once again I'm getting what I want :]

I think your preferred playstyle is awful but I wouldn't mind coexistence if yours could be implemented without interfering with mine.

Subtlety for over a decade has been a spec that has been about flawlessly executed burst.... and control. It's probably not as fun for people that are only playing half of their class by just doing the damage rotation against a raid boss. :]

But this is the rightful way that Subtlety is supposed to be. And mark my words we are getting poisons and gouge back by BFA launch.

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oh I'm with you on that one.

gouge is my favourite ability in the game.
but it really has very fringe uses in raiding, pvp is dead so mostly it'd be mythic+

as far as raiding goes, sub is pretty crisp atm (outside of a few issues with DFA)

lol PvP is not dead there are plenty of people like me who only log on to play PvP and do nothing else

"PvP is dead" is an awful excuse to justify the gutting of the Rogue class

if you don't need to use Gouge in raids, don't. not every single button in the spellbook needs to be relevant to you as a player.

[shaunika123]

Once again I'm getting what I want :]

I think your preferred playstyle is awful but I wouldn't mind coexistence if yours could be implemented without interfering with mine.

Subtlety for over a decade has been a spec that has been about flawlessly executed burst.... and control. It's probably not as fun for people that are only playing half of their class by just doing the damage rotation against a raid boss. :]

But this is the rightful way that Subtlety is supposed to be. And mark my words we are getting poisons and gouge back by BFA launch.

- - - Updated - - -



lol PvP is not dead there are plenty of people like me who only log on to play PvP and do nothing else

"PvP is dead" is an awful excuse to justify the gutting of the Rogue class

if you don't need to use Gouge in raids, don't. not every single button in the spellbook needs to be relevant to you as a player.

you havent changed a bit have you?

I never said it justifies anything, my original argument was:
sub in pve is in a very good spot design wise, to which the reaction was "yeah but gouge"
to which I reacted "yes, I love gouge, but since it isnt really part of pve it's not relevant to my point"

and since you're one of the biggest crybabies when it comes to the awful state of wow pvp, I find it surprising that you didnt get what I mean by the "pvp is dead" comment.

i want gouge back more than anything in this world, because that ability to me has been one of the most iconic rogue abilities ever since vanilla. and it pains me dearly to lose it unless I'm outlaw.

but that doesnt mean sub pve wise isnt completely fine without it.

also yeah, every single button in the spellbook needs to be relevant to me as a player. of course it has to be, and gouge was relevant, albeit in a limited fashion (dungeons mostly) so that argument doesnt even work.

[Master Guns]

Going into BfA, what specs do you all think will dominate which fields? Single target, AoE, burst, pvp?

Do you think it will stay relatively the same? I personally hope not, as I hope that Assass AoE gets a nice buff, and with Crimson Tempest it seems to be going that direction, hopefully, but CT has always been a *shit* AoE in the past..

[Deleted]

Removing gouge from Subtlety was NOT OK. Its the only spec in the game wich has posititional requirements/benefit with Backstab, wich requires our class ability Gouge. I can go on and on about multiple qeustionable design decisions...

[Kunker]

Crimson Tempest back tho

Crimson Tempest isn't on demand AoE. Assassination's problem was ALWAYS reliable burst aoe dealing with low health adds on trash in dungeons and adds on boss fights. These type of adds die before you can get bleeds up on all of them and your DoT damage can ramp up. Every other class, including 'dot' classes such as aff locks have spells to due large burst damage to groups of adds. Assassination never had this and had to rely on praying for bomb procs during key points during encounters.

IMO the best solution would have been as follows (too late now ofc):

Kingsbane and Poison bomb should have been swapped. The Sin artifact ability SHOULD have been: Release the poisons of Kingsbane on the ground around your target dealing (Something less the current poison bomb damage, probably 75% as strong) and all near by targets. 45 second CD. CD reduced when you envenom targets that are affected by your bleeds.

'Poison Bomb' talent replaced with something else and now reads: Targets affected by your bleeds and poisons have a chance to become infected, dealing (Something similar to Kingsbane damage with similar effects of ramping up with poison applications). 1.25 ppm or something similar.

IMO this would have solved most issues with Sin AoE burst damage and could have been tuned to not affect ST sustained.

[elfporn]

Once again I'm getting what I want :]

I think your preferred playstyle is awful but I wouldn't mind coexistence if yours could be implemented without interfering with mine.

Subtlety for over a decade has been a spec that has been about flawlessly executed burst.... and control. It's probably not as fun for people that are only playing half of their class by just doing the damage rotation against a raid boss. :]

But this is the rightful way that Subtlety is supposed to be. And mark my words we are getting poisons and gouge back by BFA launch.

- - - Updated - - -



lol PvP is not dead there are plenty of people like me who only log on to play PvP and do nothing else

"PvP is dead" is an awful excuse to justify the gutting of the Rogue class

if you don't need to use Gouge in raids, don't. not every single button in the spellbook needs to be relevant to you as a player.

What shaunika said, you havn’t changed a bit. You go right on ahead and “get what you want”. And when you get CCed in the middle of executing your burst in pvp and proceed to get shit on, just think “i got what i wanted”

Making sub 100% reliant on burst windows is a bad idea - they tried to mitigate that going into legion and half assed it.

Now, if they keep it like it is on the alpha, any interuption in that burst window and you become a limp dick monkey. It’s most likely that they will replace the 30% dmg during dance talent with FW so that it makes people like you feel warm and fuzzy, even though there is no significant difference between the benefit the two effects give. If they don’t? Sub’s abilities will be nerfed to compensate, and that burst window becomes even more important.

And gouge? It’s another interupt in pvp, unless you’re solo. It’s a disorient that’s all too easily broken by damage.

- - - Updated - - -

Removing gouge from Subtlety was NOT OK. Its the only spec in the game wich has posititional requirements/benefit with Backstab, wich requires our class ability Gouge. I can go on and on about multiple qeustionable design decisions...

Removing gouge from sub is perfectly fine. The only time in the game where you’re unable to get behind a target is when you have agro in a pve environment and the target faces you at all times unless you CC in some form. They added gloomblade to negate that, and allowed backstab usable from any position, with bonus dmg from rear. it’s a very minor ability that is useless in solo pve content because you’re killing shit so fast. And in pvp, it’s an interupt, and sometimes a short cc if you’re lucky.

- - - Updated - - -

Going into BfA, what specs do you all think will dominate which fields? Single target, AoE, burst, pvp?

Do you think it will stay relatively the same? I personally hope not, as I hope that Assass AoE gets a nice buff, and with Crimson Tempest it seems to be going that direction, hopefully, but CT has always been a *shit* AoE in the past..

Assination aoe is pretty strong right now, it’s not super bursty, but is very strong (with t21 4set). They’re adding bleeds to our mastery in bfa - all bleeds(including CT) and poisons will scale - that means assinations aoe will scale really well, though it won’t be front loaded at all. You’ll probably be alternating envenom and ct during an aoe rotation.

[Hamburglar - Perenolde]

For anyone playing Alpha - Tell me now if Sin's go to will be bleed spec or any spec requiring Exsanguinate. never really liked it, so Ill just switch classes or spec before it's too late...

[Varolyn]

For anyone playing Alpha - Tell me now if Sin's go to will be bleed spec or any spec requiring Exsanguinate. never really liked it, so Ill just switch classes or spec before it's too late...

No one will know what the "go-to" of any spec/class until at least a month before the expansion launches. Way too early to tell what will and won't be good during an alpha.