Why is the Horde evil when Alliance is the one starting the wars? (maybe spoilers)

[Magnagarde]

As if the Alliance wouldn't weaponize it ASAP. Gallywix was just smarter than the rest.

"As if" is speculation and headcanon. Canon says it was the goblins, who then got Sylvanas in on it. Teldrassil also happens first. There are no indications the Alliance would be the first to use Azerite to destroy a Horde capital.

I'm happy the Undercity gets destroyed and not Thunder Bluff or some other Horde capital that belongs to a proper pro-Horde race.

[Crudence]

They are two equally bad factions. None are evil and none are good. Just like real life, everyone think their the good guy.

[Mehrunes]

Funny how each week we have dozens of these threads, ALWAYS from some salty horde fanboys...

Also funny how each time they completely ignore every single argument that would point out how wrong they are, only trying to find some circumstantial evidence at best, that, if twisted correctly, looked at in the right light, and only with eyes half closed, just MIGHT look like they have some "point". They never do.

Look at all dem arguments in here. Every single one of the whole zero is strong beyond measure. Also, lel at circumstantial evidence. First Alterac Valley quest on the Alliance was Stormpikes admitting wrongdoing. We have whole cinematic for Alliance's surprise attack in Stormheim. We have whole questline about Alliance attacking the Horde in Silithus. The ones who outright ignore it and twist it and look at it from the most convenient perspective are the people like you.

You are missing several crucially important factors in your statement and your title is click-baity.

Then name those several crucially important factors instead of hiding behind the claim of click-bait (which, unless you're able to provide those "several crucially important factors" to prove the claims in the OP wrong, is unsubstantiated).

You do not prompt discussion on the matter, you lay out your (poorly thought out) statement on the table and await someone to argue it.

What, are Alliance players prohibited from trying to prove the claims in the OP wrong with their several crucially important factors? I must have missed that fine print at the end of OP.

No, it was started by the Forsaken... Whether or not it was done with Sylvanas' approval is irrelevant, that they were able to do something like that at all without being noticed is a problem in itself. The plague research was being done right under her nose, so she's either incompetent and didn't notice (unlikely), didn't care enough to stop them, or wanted them to succeed so she could use it herself but didn't expect them to turn on her like they did... In each situation, Sylvanas is still at fault.

People that rebel against the Forsaken and force them out of Undercity in a coup aren't Forsaken anymore. They are as Horde as Defias Brotherhood is Alliance. Sylvanas may be responsible for putting trust in wrong people, but she's not responsible for their actions once they break that trust and rise against her.

Yeah, shame on him for trying to prevent the Horde from exploiting the blood of Azeroth for personal gain, and potentially turning it into another manabomb! /s

Ah, yes, Horde potentially doing something totally warrants Alliance aggression. Guess Horde is totally justified for attacking Alliance in Ashran. It also totally negates the fact that Alliance did attack first.

No, the Horde started this one. Everyone should have been trying to heal the wound, as Magni(Alliance) said, the Horde chose to exploit it instead, so they need to be stopped... Sylvanas could have backhanded Gallywix when she learned about his exploitation and sent word to the Alliance that they both should send forces to help keep the site secure from corrupting influence (like the Twilight's Hammer) and get the world's Druids and Shaman to work healing the wound, but she didn't, she wanted power... THis could have been an opportunity to heal old and new wounds, literally and figuratively, but instead, power hunger...

So Horde doing something the Alliance doesn't like is the Horde starting this, when it's the Alliance that strikes first? What authority does Alliance have over the Horde to tell them what to do with Azerite? What obligations does Sylvanas have to inform anyone in the Alliance about anything (especially after they attacked her fleet in Stormheim)? Also lel at the double standards. So the Horde is expected to keep in touch with the Alliance and inform them of what they're doing and coordinate stuff, but Alliance cannot send a request to stop mining Azerite instead of attacking the moment they get to Silithus? You know, in name of a new start and the opportunity to heal old wounds.

You should go to Korea. This level of mental gymnastics would give you gold medal.

From what I can tell from the broadcast text on the Stormwind event, the Alliance didn't bother the zandalari until the Horde who infiltrated SW went to Zandalar, which means the Horde brought them into it first...

Totally what happens. If you disregard the fact that they escape on Zandalari princess' ship that was already in Stormwind because the Alliance captured it. Or the fact that the Horde infiltrates SW in order to break her out and prophet Zul out of prison to begin with, because Alliance captured them beforehand.

You didn't do Azsuna first? There's a quest that gives the Alliance a clue what Sylvanas is up to. So no, they don't attack without a reason.

Yeah, only a clue. One that didn't mention Sylvanas doing anything against the Alliance. Or anything in particular for that matter, because the book was a mess.

No. They knew. Genn knew from the start. That's why when he attacked Sylvanas in the cinematic, he knew exactly what to steal from her (the lattern) and what it did when he broke it (he stole her people's ''future''). And again, that's why one of his soldiers when you deliverd him the diary in the end of the quest I am going to link you, said ''keep this info a secret don't talk about this with anyone else''

They totally knew. The book didn't even finish one sentence because it was so damaged, but Genn put it up together because he's a bigger prophet than Velen. Even though all the Alliance quests that you disregarded (linked later by @Halfdrop) say something else. In fact there's no mention he knew in any Alliance Stormheim quest. So chances are he grabbed the lantern because he only saw Sylvanas using it.

I haven't played Horde in awhile up until recently with the new additional races but doing Western Plaguelands frustrated me as Horde. One moment I'm literally gassing humans to turn them into undead and the next moment I'm helping the Argent Dawn and they don't even bat an eye or are horribly unaware of what Sylvanas is doing. I mean at this point in time - all the horrible things Sylvanas is doing is even considered "justifiable" I don't know why she is so liked at a lore standpoint; I know people like her because "Girl Power! xD" but her character hasn't really developed outside of solidifying what she's been doing, and even up to Legion she's done nothing for the overall Horde and is still only concerned with herself and becoming immortal or bring back my Undead Vrkyul Angels (forget what they're called atm).

Why would the AC care? Sylvanas Blighted the humans after they attacked the Forsaken in a surprise attack that broke the truce Thassarian made with Koltira. Even if she attacked them first, it'd still be an issue between the Horde and the Alliance. Should they care just because of the Blight? That's unsupported by the entirety of WotLK, where their closest ally was the Ebon Blade. Even though Darion told Tirion right in the face the Ebon Blade is going to fight the Scourge with Scourge's own tactics, because he considered that to be the only way to win. And Tirion's reaction was just "K, I disagree but you do you."

This is very well put and very true throughout this franchise. The latest fantasy is how Genn was justified in Stormheim.

Thanks, I try to entertain :3 Though I disagree with the latter part. The latest fantasy is now ignoring or handwaving away Alliance's attack in Silithus. Like @Schattenlied and their mental gymnastics above.

This is quite possibly one of the single least self aware sentences I have ever seen.

Fascinating. I patiently await you providing all the examples of my cherry-picking and fanfiction. Until then this disgrace of a post remains a worthless ad-hominem failure trying to discredit me without any substantiation.

Alliance starting the wars? No, the Horde IS the one who starts EVERY war, and the Horde exist today ONLY because Alliance allow it: in terms of power, Alliance is a superpower while Horde is a mid-developped power.

Given how last Alliance-Horde war was declared by Varian in WotLK and in this one Alliance attacks first, you have a very fucked up perception of what the word "EVERY" actually means. And yeah, the Horde totally exists only because the Alliance allows it and Alliance is totally the superpower overpowering a mid-power Horde. Which is why they were losing the last war until the Darks

And that is why BFA will be the worst expansion ever, a fact no one seems to understand: they ALREADY tried with Mop, now, Horde is doing exactly the same thing and will not be erased as it should be after their second treason.

Horde is doing what exact same thing? Defending themselves from Alliance aggression? And what second treason? Hell, what was the first one?

"Varian started the WoTLK conflict"

*Looks at the Wrathgate*

...Ehehehe. I wish it were that simple.

I'm looking at it. What am I supposed to see that'd discredit the claim of Varian starting the war? Because all I'm seeing is an attack against both the Alliance and the Horde (weirdly enough Alliance geniuses like you like to skip that part) by people who were already in open rebellion against the Forsaken and the Horde. I.e. weren't Horde. That was as much of a Horde attack as Fandral attacking Thrall in 4.1 was an Alliance attack.

"Anduin started BFA"

...HAHAHAHAHA....again, no.

What a strong argument. *Meanwhile in Silithus* Oh, look, the Alliance attacks the Horde and not the other way around. And this attack predates Horde's assault on Teldrassil. Would you look at that, the inconvenient chronology still shits on Alliance arguments.

"The Alliance starts the Wars".

Other than Stormheim, no. You're quite wrong. In MoP, Garrosh started it by invading Pandaria, Capturing Anduin, and by destroying Theramoore. In Cata, it was ALSO started by the Horde cause of his distaste with the Alliance.

You do realize MoP is a continuation of the war in Cataclysm? As such Garrosh doing things in MoP, ~3 years after the start of the war, is utterly meaningless to the topic of who started it. And not only is the war from Cata a continuation of the one started in WotLK (the factions only had a truce after WotLK, not a peace treaty), the Alliance is the faction that broke the truce. Alliance attack on the Barrens predates the Horde invasion of Ashenvale.

In Legion, Genn did start the fire, but Sylvanas started it WAY beforehand with the Intention.

What the fuck does that even mean? And yeah, Sylvanas really cared about the Alliance in Stormheim. Which is why she completely ignored Genn despite him following her like dog shit stuck to her shoe.

In BFA, judging by the Spoilers, Sylvanas starts is by destroying Theramoore, Anduin responds to this by invading Lorderon, Sylvanas tells the Horde peeps to save Saurfang, then the SW BS occurs, and so forth.

Theramore, Teldrassil, what's the difference lel. And judging by the spoilers, Alliance attacks the Horde in Silithus. Which happens before Teldrassil.

Also, the Horde's reasoning for starting the War is BULLSHIT! Thalyssra: Oh look. Sylvanas was a big ole' meany to me. Now, I wanna kill all the Night Elves and burn the Alliance's cities even though I just saved my very own fucking city from being burned by another Allied Faction.

Not only does Thalyssra have nothing to do with starting the war, but Sylvanas and Tyrande are two different people. She also joins the Horde before Alliance starts the war, so she didn't join to kill Night Elves. Her defending her new faction from Alliance aggression is something the Alliance gets the blame for, not Thalyssra.

Sylvanas: Gallywix showed me a Titan Relic, and after Genn stopped me from becoming Immortal and Power hungry to shit, I wanna claim this World for the Horde with Azerite DESPITE our very own Planet dying around me.

Sylvanas is free to mine Azerite as much as she wants. There's nothing prohibiting her from doing that.

Lor'themar: I didn't warn Alleria about the Sunwell, and now, since I was incompetent, she caused the Void to Invade the Sunwell? Fuck her. I don't care if she was a major factor in saving our World from Space Satan, and I don't care if she commands one of the 2 Greatest Forces in the Universe, I'm filled with Red Plot Armor, fuck her.

Why on earth did Lor'themar need to warn Alleria about something she knew already? And something she requested to see? Also, since when was Alleria a major factor against Legion? She did barely anything against them, most of her quests revolved around the Void. Also, what greatest force in the universe does Alleria command? The Void? Not only is there nothing to suggest it's one of the greatest forces in the universe (being one of the two earliest forces doesn't equal being the greatest), but she doesn't command it for squat. She can use Void magic, that's not commanding the Void. Hell, she herself admits she will succumb to it one day. And the very event you bullshit about revolves around her accidentally opening a rift to the Void. Dat command. Finally, what plot armor?

Like, what the fuck? Not just that, but Baine, Gallywix, and Saurfang are ALL gone as soon as they are announced in BFA. Oh, and before you ask, I did agree with the Zandalari's reasoning for the joining the Horde. It was actually kind of weird that the Alliance would just imprison a powerful force such as that.

Why would it be weird? They attacked the Blood Elves in 2.0 before they joined any faction. They attacked Bilgewater Goblins in 4.0 before they joined any faction. They attacked Steamwheedle Goblins in 4.0 with them never joining any faction. Alliance, being the imperialist aggressive disgrace of a faction, has a penchant for randomly attacking everyone that isn't them. Which more often than not ends up with pushing the victim of their aggression into the Horde's hands.

Jaina: The Horde abandoned us even though I never got too see their perspective on the Broken Shore, FUCK EM! REEE!!!

The Alliance can see the arrival of the Legion's spaceships and the subsequent bombardment of Horde position by said spaceships moments before they sound the horn to retreat. Nothing substantiates the idea the Alliance lacked sufficient information to understand why the Horde had to retreat.

Tyrande: I talked shit about the Nightborne, and now my ass just got back stabbed cause of it? OH NO! HOW COULD I HAVE NOT SEEN THIS COMING?! D: *Hurr durrs forward*

Nightborne joining the Horde before the war and Alliance starting the war does not make Night Elves getting backstabbed by the Nightborne.

Though, tbf now: Jaina's gone through a LOT of shit with the Horde beforehand, while what Tyrande got was...in all seriousness...was FUCKING UNCALLED FOR! Like, fuck me. Tyrande calls you down from the Alliance, and you decide to KILL EVERY OTHER NIGHT ELF cause of it? Jesus christ, are you an insane bitch, Thalyssra. Why did I ever try to help you?

The Nightborne still didn't join to kill any Night Elves.

1. The Wrathgate was MOSTLY led by Balnazzar, who betrayed Sylvanas throughout most of the shit. However, she did still give him a LOT of the command over the Undercity's Plague, even she KNEW that he was a Legion Demon from start to finish. Sylvanas to him was only a distraction. So, It was her fault for not knowing better.

Balnazzar, Varimathras, what's the difference. Also, Sylvanas giving command to wrong people still doesn't make her responsible for their actions once they rebel against her and the Horde. Putress' actions at the Wrathgate are his own.

2. Garrosh was APART of the Horde when he started it. Garrosh made the Blood Elves steal the Divine Bell, he made the Goblin's apply the Mana Bomb onto Theramore, The Tauren were used for both the Front Lines as well as the Shamanism (Despite Baine warning Jaina and having good Alliance relations against Garrosh), he gave Nazgrim the Command to lead the Horde onto Pandaria/Dismantle the Alliance's Command, he kept Sylvanas in check, and more. He only ever got insane/Old God power hungryish once 5.3 came along. Then, it only went down from there.

Except Garrosh didn't start shit. He wasn't even the Warchief when Alliance first started the war. And Alliance is the one who resumed it. Him doing things in the next expansion is still irrelevant to the topic of starting the war.

Also, if you don't have the time to argue with me about my opinions over the current Horde in BFA, then you have no right having a discussion with me on this to begin with.

Speaking of having a right to discuss things, try to actually not confuse people and places every third paragraph before you post.

The Horde in itself isn't evil, but it is Sylvanas and Gallywix who have started the Azerite weapon race by giving in to their respective greed for power/money as soon as they found out about the titan's blood seeping into Silithus.

And that doesn't validate Alliance attacking them one iota. Just as the paranoid Troll commander in Ashran isn't validated by Alliance archeologic mission.

"As if" is speculation and headcanon. Canon says it was the goblins, who then got Sylvanas in on it. Teldrassil also happens first. There are no indications the Alliance would be the first to use Azerite to destroy a Horde capital.

Nope, it's Alliance aggression in Silithus that happens first. Alas, cherry-picking is a realm of which you're the god-king.

[Kiri]

Nope, it's Alliance aggression in Silithus that happens first. Alas, cherry-picking is a realm of which you're the god-king.

I think people are putting way too much emphasis on these quests when it comes to the 'who started it' question. I have played through them on both factions, and both times it felt as if the goblins and SI:7 did not engage in any active hostilities before player characters arrived. Neither commander behaves in the killquest as if their people were not currently under attack. To me, this just seems like a lazy attempt of Blizzard's to put some 'hey, you now fight the other faction!' in for both sides. Ultimately, Blizz will tell us who starts the war and that will be it, plain and simple. Quests and gameplay are always trumped by Word of God (see also: Fenris Isle).

Plus, I don't think that Blizzard has ever considered small skirmishes to be actual starts of war, mostly to keep the Battleground things running even when factions are allied. What we as players see and do is only relevant until Blizz says otherwise.

[Deleted]

@Mehrunes

I am Refusing to argue and provide points because, as is customary here, someone will try to twist them or will not even address them, instead creating a strawman out of my own arguments and beating on it instead, baiting me even further.

Only thing you are getting out of me is this: Saying one side is starting wars is clearly a stupid thing in a situation that is clearly depicting both factions as ambiguous, complex entities. Neither is inherently right, nor inherently wrong, and that is in the interest of the game.

[Kwento]

The Horde is “evil” because at some point in WoW development, Blizzard decided that it needs to add zombies to it. Then they decided that magic-vampire elves are also a good idea! And then... Then they decided that all that story from RTS can go screw itself and orcs became assholes again.

[Darktbs]

Thalyssra proved herself a true ally of the Horde by helping to burn Stormwind. She chose the winning side. You have no one to thank for that but your arrogant, racist hippie queen Tyrande.

Hard to say that considering the Horde didn't won a single war agaisn't the alliance since Wc1, and in that there wasn't a Alliance, just the Kingdom of Stormwind.

[Mehrunes]

@Mehrunes

I am Refusing to argue and provide points because, as is customary here, someone will try to twist them or will not even address them, instead creating a strawman out of my own arguments and beating on it instead, baiting me even further.

Those people only destroy their own credibility in the process so I'm not seeing the problem.

Only thing you are getting out of me is this: Saying one side is starting wars is clearly a stupid thing in a situation that is clearly depicting both factions as ambiguous, complex entities. Neither is inherently right, nor inherently wrong, and that is in the interest of the game.

Saying that one side is starting wars when the evidence indicates them starting wars is a fact. One that does negate both sides being complex and whatnot. Again, not seeing the problem.

[Deleted]

Are you joking?

Horde starts most of the aggression in Warcraft.

[Clone]

Are you joking?

Horde starts most of the aggression in Warcraft.

That notion has been demolished with facts.

[RobertMugabe]

I seriously still don't get this discussion...
I mean, you don't need to be a Genius to realize that Blizzard is trying Keep it all balanced and tries to avoid black/white situations.

And yeah, it Shocks me how there are people like OP (and a few others), who are Making these threads like the Story is IRL politics, like democrats vs republicans and that it somehow affects him (emotionally). Obviously there are also some just discussing the lore (because it's fun) and some are simply RP'ing (because it's also fun)... but that some people take this matter very seriously is fun and weird at the same time

[Deleted]

Those people only destroy their own credibility in the process so I'm not seeing the problem.




Saying that one side is starting wars when the evidence indicates them starting wars is a fact. One that does negate both sides being complex and whatnot. Again, not seeing the problem.

Sorry, but i need to call you out, you twist ever word you post in lore. You really need to take a step back and go learn your lore. (you can see clearly you're a horde fanboy). and all you do is place your fingers in your ears and scream *lalalalala i'm not listening*, Please take a step back.

[Verdugo]

Sorry, but i need to call you out, you twist ever word you post in lore. You really need to take a step back and go learn your lore. (you can see clearly you're a horde fanboy). and all you do is place your fingers in your ears and scream *lalalalala i'm not listening*, Please take a step back.

Can you post an example?

[Deleted]

That notion has been demolished with facts.

Facts? Have I red wrong that in Before the Storm Sylvanas is planning on attacking Stormwind right after the legion is defeated? Not true aggression yes, but she is actively mobilizing for such.

[bufferunderrun]

Its been bothering the hell out of me lately. The Horde is almost always seen by the player base as the evil ones. But isnt it the Alliance that keeps sparking the conflicts? WotlK (into Cata and MoP) conflict was started by Varian, BfA started by Anduin, attempts at peace are typically stopped by either Nelves or a human. Zandalari seem to be joining the Horde due to Alliance screwing with them.

I mean yes, the Horde typically takes the conflicts WAY TO FAR, but they are pretty much responding to shit that the Alliance started in the first place. Then the Alliance bitch about how evil the Horde is for daring to fight back. Hell look at Theramore. It was very very clearly being used by the Alliance to start, and then supply, an invasion into the Barrens. So Horde of course attack it. Then Jaina cries about neutrality while very clearly not subscribing towards that standard herself.

because for blizzard is way more easy to write the horde doing an evil act than the alliance and it has way less consequences with the dedicated fans of that faction, year ago many peoples complained the horde was too peaceful on the contrary when varian first appeared and was a bit more brash than the usual white knight many alliance fans complained.

[Mehrunes]

Facts? Have I red wrong that in Before the Storm Sylvanas is planning on attacking Stormwind right after the legion is defeated? Not true aggression yes, but she is actively mobilizing for such.

You answered your own concern.

[Engal]

You answered your own concern.

Sylvanas did not disband the army of the horde after the Legion's war because she wants to go to war again , against stormwind. But she lacks the ressources, and the horde army is weakened.

Then come Azerite, hence her " This change everything" we saw in the cinematic with Gallywix.

Thus, she mobilize her army to attack the alliance because Azerite give her an edge and an advantage, and go to burn teldrassil with it.

For her part, she did not have much interested in the Horde as a whole, although she took great pains never to let her true feelings show.

"It is not the member that concern me. It is the army. I have decided I will not dissolve it."

He turned to look at her. "They think they're come home," he said. "Is this not the case?"

"It is, for the moment," she said. "Injuries need time to heal. Crops need to be planted. But soon, I will call upon the brave fighters of the Horde for another battle. The one you and I have both longed for."

Nathanos was silent. She did not take that for disagreement of disapproval. He was often silent. That he did not press her for more details meant that he understood what she wanted.

Stormwind.

She thought the alliance would be weakened, but did not expect the retaliation of Anduin against Undercity.
The alliance itself declares the Attack on Teldrassil as " a declaration of war ", and there are enough proof in the file showing that Sylvanas did invade with an army the land of the night elves, with the climax of this invasion being the burning of Teldrassil.*

BTW :
http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/690467.jpg

FOR THE HERD !

[Kwento]

BTW :
http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/690467.jpg

FOR THE HERD !

Yeah, but the Horde does doubt her.
It’s not about Sylvanas, more probably Azshara, given what we see of her troops in BfA

[HumbleDuck]

interplanetary xenophobia

[Deleted]

What I've read from some people in this thread is that the Alliance picked a fight with the horde in wrath when Varian declared war in the Undercity. I don't think this is really the case, given that this declaration was a response to all the aggression the horde had shown to the Alliance before the battle for Undercity. Agression like:

Invading and annexing part of Ashenvale. It does not matter that the horde needs lumber, just because your nation needs something another nation has does not make a full scale invasion any less an act of pure aggression. Not to mention that they intentionally cut down more wood than they needed, leaving much of it to rot just to spite the night elves.
Source:
Do I really need one for this?

Attacking Alliance forces all over Hillsbrad foothills. This includes the humans of the town of Hillsbrad, most of whom were civilians, the miners of the Azureload mine, again mostly civilians and the dwarves of Dun Garok. On top of this they also resurrect a Lich that they then release on Southshore.
Sources:
https://classicdb.ch/?quest=527
https://classicdb.ch/?quest=552

Attacking Stonetalon peak and killing dryads, keepers and night elf druids.
Source:
https://classicdb.ch/?quest=1087

Attacking Stromgarde in Arathi highlands. This includes killing Stromgarde defenders and even the prince of Stromgarde because a troll wants to steal their ancestral sword. Also the questgiver for the horde version of the Arathi basin quest describes the conflict there as a "true war", a conflict where the undead are trying to invade Strom and annex parts of it for resources that they will use for more war on the Alliance.
Sources:
https://classicdb.ch/?quest=8438
https://classicdb.ch/?quest=643

Attacking the High elves and Wildhammer dwarves in the Hinterlands on behalf of the Revantusk trolls.
Source:
https://classicdb.ch/?quest=7841

Testing Biological weapons on human prisoners.
Source:
Arthas: Rise of the Lich king

Any one of these events would be a valid casus belli, the only suprising thing about Varian's declaration of war was that it didn't come sooner.
Also is there a source on the Alliance attacking the barrens before Garrosh attacked Ashenvale?