The lies and misrepresenttions of Titanforging

[Deleted]

Totes remember disenchanting every non tier tier eligible item in mythic HFC and BRF.

TF makes gear that isn't usable, usable.

It also makes all non-TF gear, absolute garbage because it's not bis, and you'll feel like shit whenever it drops.

[Count Zero]

I love war/titan-forging. For me the big thing is you can, just as one example - take your main that you normally raid mythic on and bring it to a friend's casual guild's chill normal mode run, and there's still the chance for you to get an upgrade. Tiny chance, but a chance.

Also allows them to ramp up ilvl along w/ difficulty, without completely negating those earlier bosses after you get to the later ones.

I'm not sure how much of a current problem is with how often they happen. In my experience warforging is actually pretty common, and 20+ or higher titanforges are ~somewhat~ rare ... but we're just one guild, so of course your mileage may vary ... either way, I think their rates should always have an eye kept on them, so that's all good.

[kary]

It also makes gear from 2 or 3 raids (trinkets/tier) mandatory, because their TF version is much more valuable than current raid gear. It also puts pressure on Blizzard to balance gear, which is usually being dealt with the laziest way: Nerfing old raid gear effects, instead of making current gear more desirable due to better effects or just better stats.

There has always been gear from previous tiers that scaled well. DST, death's verdict, UVLH, Scales of doom off butcher in highmaul, anything with armor pen, for example. Also 2p/4p is unique to legion so it's not like it ever couldve happened before.
Also, in a lot of previous expansions, there have been situations where the previous tier was a mathematically superior % increase, but only lost out due to il. Balancing has been fine, what you have is people who theorycraft and think up an impossible situation and get upset that the impossible situation is well, impossible.

It also makes all non-TF gear, absolute garbage because it's not bis, and you'll feel like shit whenever it drops.

which happened anyway. TF didn't make non-tier drops any more useless than they already were. Going back to BRF, noone used ANY of the offset mail pieces save the pants from beastlord (either crit/haste + multistrike at the time) and the helm from blast furnace. Every other non-set piece in a tier slot got insta d/ed. TF may have made something usable. *may*

[HuxNeva]

You do not randomly reward people an olympic gold medal in swimming for going to the toilet. Same thing there.

The gold medal in WoW is the timestamp on your Cutting Edge / Ahead of the Curve achievements.

[Deleted]

Even though I agree with thunderforging being awful because it effectively extends RNG forever....i always have an issue with people stating opinions as if they were facts :/ I mean why.

It's not an opinion.

[HuxNeva]

Titanforging has been incredibly awful for the raid experience because it makes tuning raids properly impossible.

Except it doesn't. At raid level it adds a tiny bit of quite predictable variance. The negligible 'tuning challenge' it adds is completely overshadowed by unexpected tactics and class sacking.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I don't have a problem with some randomness in gear rolls. I think warforging was ok. I dislike that it can be 5, 10, 15, 20, 25+ item levels at random, could have a gem slot, could have a T-stat, could have a combo of any and all of the above.

They should base line gem slots again. Just don't let them get out of control like before (just major pieces 1-2 tops).

Warforging being in the game with a +5 is fine.

Keep T-stats random as fuck on what but more often landing.

Thats my opinion. Keep the scales more in balance, gems have a purpose beyond random hope, and T-stats become the focus on the randomness (I mean having like a speed set for example would be cool to get and if it was the only coin flipping in the air it would be more realistic to get).

[HuxNeva]

It also makes all non-TF gear, absolute garbage because it's not bis, and you'll feel like shit whenever it drops.

There's always been sub-optimal pieces. Doesn't make them 'absolute garbage'.

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I don't have a problem with some randomness in gear rolls. I think warforging was ok. I dislike that it can be 5, 10, 15, 20, 25+ item levels at random, could have a gem slot, could have a T-stat, could have a combo of any and all of the above.

They should base line gem slots again. Just don't let them get out of control like before (just major pieces 1-2 tops).

Warforging being in the game with a +5 is fine.

Keep T-stats random as fuck on what but more often landing.

Thats my opinion. Keep the scales more in balance, gems have a purpose beyond random hope, and T-stats become the focus on the randomness (I mean having like a speed set for example would be cool to get and if it was the only coin flipping in the air it would be more realistic to get).

+5 makes content as dead as it was before Legion.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

The problem with Titanforging is that it creates this huge mathematical problem when it comes to figuring out which item is better, Reforging was removed from the game because it was too "mathy".
I completely agree that Titanforging makes doing content for the 100th time more interesting but I don't see what's attractive with doing the same challenge for the 100th time, gear rewards to me is a tool to do the next challenge and I couldn't give a shit about if it's TF or not as long as it helps me doing the next challenge.

In the past you got gear at the power to fit into your next challenge, be it going from Normal 5 mans into heroic 5 mans or Heroic raid into Mythic raid.
In the same way if you're a Mythic + progression player- you do a Mythic + 10 and get rewarded items that progress you to Mythic +11 or +12. If you get a +35 ilvl TF item you suddenly get an item that is suited for Mythic +17, why?

For me WF (+5/+10 ilvl increases) was more than enough as a "bonus", same as socket slot was. Titanforging has just created a mess of problems where people are "forced" to do the same Myhic + dungeons over and over just trying to be lucky and get a high TF roll. Another problem is (as mentioned) mathematical, if you have 2 items it should be a lot more obvious which is better for you than it is now. I've seen spreadsheets, simulations and a lot more where people discuss and argue about which items are better than the other because of ilvl.


In my eyes Titanforging (item level rolls above +10) should be removed for the same reason Reforging was removed, being too complicated and adding confusion to the playerbase. The drawbacks of it far, far outweighs the positives.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

+5 makes content as dead as it was before Legion.

The game was so dead that they decided to spend millions to make Legion.. #logic

[Torrasque]

Despite the community generally bashing titanforging, I tend to agree, Titanforging did keep a lot of Legion content relevant. I feel that players should have more control over ugrading gear should it not proc anything, like being able to add tertiary stats, sockets, indestructible and such to your equipment through expensive profession craftable items. This would ease a lot of the disdaining function of not having something titanforging while making it still feel rewarding.

[Aggrophobic]

The gold medal in WoW is the timestamp on your Cutting Edge / Ahead of the Curve achievements.

And gear. Thats a pretty important part as well.
It used to be at least.

[Torrasque]

In my eyes Titanforging (item level rolls above +10) should be removed for the same reason Reforging was removed, being too complicated and adding confusion to the playerbase. The drawbacks of it far, far outweighs the positives.

I don't recall them stating that reforging was "too mathy" I remember them stating that reforging was removed because it wasn't interesting and it made loot less interesting since all that you did was reforge anything that wasn't you best secondary stat to your best secondary stat. In other words it wasn't dynamic, it had nothing to do with "too much math."

[Hctaz]

Happy to see that there are reasonable people still in these forums.

Titanforge is good thing that makes things interesting, even killing the same boss for the 54th time. The problem was(is) with the ceiling, not the basics of it.

I don't think that there are people who actually believe in full mythic gear level LFR runner, but 980 Arcanocrystals still happen. And this exact issue is being fixed in BFA.

So here's the thing: People fall into three categories. You have the casuals who benefit from this greatly and don't care about other people having gear, you have the large group of players who run heroic and think they're super elite badasses and complain about their epic gear being passed up by LFR noobs (and they're wrong), and then you have the hardcore raiders who dislike the system because it encourages a mass amount of farming over and over and over when they would rather just progress on new bosses once they acquire good loot.

They also have just recently changed all of the "% of weapon damage" skills to "% of atk power" because of titanforging as well. This was apparently their fix for it.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I don't recall them stating that reforging was "too mathy" I remember them stating that reforging was removed because it wasn't interesting and it made loot less interesting since all that you did was reforge anything that wasn't you best secondary stat to your best secondary stat. In other words it wasn't dynamic, it had nothing to do with "too much math."

Yes it did because we had Hit and Expertise back then, people would spend a lot of time trying to get every single point out of reforging and still be hit/exp capped. It got so bad that there was made a one click addon for Reforging which took all thinking out of it. Reforging without Hit and Expertise, like you said, would be bland and completely uninteresting- which it wasn't with Hit and Expertise in the game.

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And gear. Thats a pretty important part as well.
It used to be at least.

That's where we're "splitting hairs" as the saying goes.

For me, gear is ONLY a tool that helps you defeat your next challenge. Regardless if your next challenge is going from Normal 5 mans to Heroic 5 mans, Mythic + 10 to Mytrhic + 12 or from Mythic Aggramar to Mythic Argus.
For others gear is a "reward" for defeating the boss and the core value to them.

People will never agree on that, which is fine. However gear levels is set to fit for a specific difficulty, Mythic +10 ilvl is rewarded at a power that is "better" than what you require to beat Mythic + 10. It's a core principle in this and all games, your character progression and the rewards you obtain HAS to be better than the content you're currently doing. Here comes my issue, Titanforging (excessive item level upgrades) makes you skip "levels" that you should be doing.

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then you have the hardcore raiders who dislike the system because it encourages a mass amount of farming over and over and over when they would rather just progress on new bosses once they acquire good loot.

I guess I fall into that category, I got no issues with grinding as long as it's a choice. When it comes to dedicated raiding you're "forced" or pushed into doing everything you can to get raid spots and improve your character, with titanforging (and Artifact Power) that meant grinding for character power gains was required. People say "it's still a choice", yeah it is, but if you're given the choice between having a raid spot for what you like or not having a raid spot then you're left with little options. At that point you either do what's required or you have to find a new guild or quit raiding, I quit the game for a year because I didn't have the time or willpower to grind and I didn't want to find a new guild because I've been in my current one for over 5 years.

I don't care that LFR or Mythic + players have 980 ilvl- items, gear for me doesn't matter- gear is a tool. Progression is what I care about, being a better raid team than other raid teams.

[Hctaz]

I guess I fall into that category, I got no issues with grinding as long as it's a choice. When it comes to dedicated raiding you're "forced" or pushed into doing everything you can to get raid spots and improve your character, with titanforging (and Artifact Power) that meant grinding for character power gains was required. People say "it's still a choice", yeah it is, but if you're given the choice between having a raid spot for what you like or not having a raid spot then you're left with little options. At that point you either do what's required or you have to find a new guild or quit raiding, I quit the game for a year because I didn't have the time or willpower to grind and I didn't want to find a new guild because I've been in my current one for over 5 years.

I don't care that LFR or Mythic + players have 980 ilvl- items, gear for me doesn't matter- gear is a tool. Progression is what I care about, being a better raid team than other raid teams.

I am as well. I got so burnt out on grinding this expansion that I haven't been keeping up this last tier =/ everybody in my raid has 500k more health than me, and we're on mythic Argus progression. I'm 967 item level. They're probably like 973+

But I just can't farm Mythic+ like they do, you know? One 15 a week for that weekly and that's it for me. We're also exclusively saving lockouts for Argus now so I don't even have the chance to get titanforged Mythic loot, and I really don't want to do heroic outside of the one Argus kill a week for the trinket upgrade.

If there were points in time where I could take a break and stop farming gear, I wouldn't feel this burnt out. As a Mythic raider, you just can't. You need to maximize your gear between tiers as well as during. Even when prog stops, farm continues.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I am as well. I got so burnt out on grinding this expansion that I haven't been keeping up this last tier =/ everybody in my raid has 500k more health than me, and we're on mythic Argus progression. I'm 967 item level. They're probably like 973+

But I just can't farm Mythic+ like they do, you know? One 15 a week for that weekly and that's it for me. We're also exclusively saving lockouts for Argus now so I don't even have the chance to get titanforged Mythic loot, and I really don't want to do heroic outside of the one Argus kill a week for the trinket upgrade.

If there were points in time where I could take a break and stop farming gear, I wouldn't feel this burnt out. As a Mythic raider, you just can't. You need to maximize your gear between tiers as well as during. Even when prog stops, farm continues.

I quit around Christmas 2016 because grinding took up around 3 hours every single day, weekends included, on top of raiding 16-17 hours a week it just killed my social life and at that amount of hours I wasn't even keeping up with the people I competed with for raid spots. It got so bad that I lost all joy in the game and got depressed, just wasn't worth it. I resubbed during Christmas of 2017, only leveled alts and doing achievements.

I warned Blizzard on Beta forums that grinding for Artifact Power, Legendary items and Titanforged items would burn out a lot of people- just like Diablo 3 sees a surge of players with every season but then drop lower again after a month or two.

Character power increases should NEVER be locked behind limitless grinding, it burns out people and makes GAMES feel like WORK- not a good thing.

[Osmeric]

Character power increases should NEVER be locked behind limitless grinding, it burns out people and makes GAMES feel like WORK- not a good thing.

Except this doesn't seem to be a problem, except for Mythic raiders. Blizzard must have decided that making them grind was ok, if the mechanic improved the game (and retention) for less hardcore players.

WoD tried to make things convenient for the high end raiders at the expense of making the end game barren for everyone else. Legion shifted away from catering to them so much, by making it possible to get character improvement from a wide variety of content.

[Hctaz]

Character power increases should NEVER be locked behind limitless grinding, it burns out people and makes GAMES feel like WORK- not a good thing.

Yeah, I definitely agree. There used to be a time whenever drawing out the slow grinds for monthly sub fee was the model, and it worked well. I guess times are changing where the games no longer go for that long play. They have to have instant gratification at all times.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Except this doesn't seem to be a problem, except for Mythic raiders. Blizzard must have decided that making them grind was ok, if the mechanic improved the game (and retention) for less hardcore players.

WoD tried to make things convenient for the high end raiders at the expense of making the end game barren for everyone else. Legion shifted away from catering to them so much, by making it possible to get character improvement from a wide variety of content.

Again, it's fine to have alternative progression paths for your character. But not limitless! Imagine if you could just hit "reset" on raids and do them again for more loot, in other words: removing the weekly lockout. I'd hate that as well, a lot of people would. That's the issue I have with Artifact Power, and to some extent mythic +, the fact that there's no limit on it means people will push each other to the grave to compete.
Simply putting a cap on how much Artifact Power you could obtain every week or how many Mythic + dungeons you could do in a week, similar to how there's a weekly cap of doing the same raid, would be a good change in my book.

Mythic + was a great addition, it really was, but there are many things that should (in my eyes) change.

Oh and also, Mythic raiders are around 25% of all raiders at the moment and more than likely the group that put in the most amount of hours in the game, obviously they should have a big say in how the game is. I've not raided for a year so I'm not even bias.