Can Conservatives Move Beyond the Identity Politics of Misogyny?

[Deleted]

Okay but every American would still be a citizen of the US state. A monoculture state is great but a multiculture state can also prosper. All you do is jail all the violent Antifa thugs and society will be fine.

Do you know what a Nation is?
Hint, while many use it as a shorthand for a state, that's a misnomer, primarily derived from that fact that the original thinking on this almost exclusively came from Nation states.
A Nation state is a state where the absolute majority of the population belongs to the same nation, either wholly or partially.
It's debatable if the US ever where a nation state, or if it were, multiple different nations over time.
In any case if we are to accept that the US were/are a Nation state, that Nation is White Europeans, Of some christian variety (or if you go back in time WASPs) - The current Hispanic immigration is (or already has) killed the US Nation state.
Oh and as a general rule multicultural (i.e non-Nation) states tends to be the most precise predictor of a 'shit hole' country, you may draw whatever inference you want about that.

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Who cares if you reciprocate? The basis of the state is authority and taxes. If you work you are supporting the prosperity of the state. If you never want to work then that's your own loss because you wont gain important skills, resources, and networks.

Society doesn't function if people don't reciprocate - And if society doesn't function, it doesn't really matter if the state functions, because it generally soon won't.

[PC2]

Because, you might say "Oh well I'll treat her as an individual for this job" but I might say "You know my cousin or this person who speaks my language is more qualified for this job, or to rent this property." You might act as an individual, but I might not. I might play as a team, you play by yourself.

No big deal, if that nepotistic organization gets lazy I can create one based on merit that will trounce it. If they hire a cousin who actually works hard and innovates then great, the whole society is better off.

[Deleted]

The nation-state isn't going to perish. If anyone in the South-West stops sending taxes to Washington they lose their jobs or go to jail for tax evasion. What culture they have is irrelevant to the state.

Theodranza and I are discussing something else entirely different.
States will be a thing. Of whatever size. Some will be large conglomerates, some will look inward.
Nations will also be a thing. As the indisputable will of people identifying with the land.
What's at stake is the nation-state: the idea that the people identify with their polity, their state.

We are seeing these failures of the nation-state already:
from the independence movements of Catalonia, or Scotland, to the incapacity of the middle east to accept the model, or the two current massive existential struggles the west is experiencing: the peoples of the UK and the US being incapable of sustaining a coherent national narrative. All of which are intimately tied to democratic decay.

But this is a tangent from the point Theodranza was making: the idea that transnational organizations won't achieve identity. Or more precisely: that the EU lacks a coherent narrative and origin story, and the capacity to build one. Which will eventually lead to its implosion.
This failure of internationalism would, in consequence, have people focus on more domestic issues, and identify with smaller polities.

What you described is precisely why they nation-state will perish as it increasingly detaches itself from domestic issues.

[Theodarzna]

No big deal, if that nepotistic organization gets lazy I can create one based on merit that will trounce it. If they hire a cousin who actually works hard and innovates then great, the whole society is better off.

Sure you will, and if I don't particularly care because I am playing for the benefit of the tribe, then who cares. I will exploit the system to my aims, and if we harm one another than that is fine.

[NED funded]

What this implies is that identity politics is excusable based on the beliefs of the people. Identity politics is always a bad idea regardless of anyone's beliefs. Either you make political choices based on the merit of the policy(good) or because of identifier traits(bad). The latter is never justified.

Framing good ideas behind identity politics to gather support and execute them is good tho, regardless if you think identity politics is bad or not and not all identity politics are the same. I'd say that civic nationalism is pretty good compared to say racial pride.

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Sure you will, and if I don't particularly care because I am playing for the benefit of the tribe, then who cares. I will exploit the system to my aims, and if we harm one another than that is fine.

This but unironically. Competitive markets kill nepotism pls.

[Theodarzna]

This but unironically. Competitive markets kill nepotism pls.

That is if we are all equally competing in a market for the same end goal. You and PrimaryColor are mistaken in assuming everyone will play the game the same way or for the same reason and with the same "WIN" scenario in mind.

[PC2]

I'd say that civic nationalism is pretty good compared to say racial pride.

Theoretically, but all the civic nationalists i've heard from want weak borders for dirt cheap labor, as opposed to merit based screening. I want to compete with China/India technologically, not become the next China/India.

[Deleted]

But this is a tangent from the point Theodranza was making: the idea that transnational organizations won't achieve identity. Or more precisely: that the EU lacks a coherent narrative and origin story, and the capacity to build one. Which will eventually lead to its implosion.
This failure of internationalism would, in consequence, have people focus on more domestic issues, and identify with smaller polities.

The fun thing here is that there are two countervailing movements in the EU, one is In varietate concordia - I.e to craft the EU as a analogue for the US, where all states remain Nations, and the other, is creating a European Nation (Frankly somthing somewhat more acheivable in my book).
The crucial thing to note about the first option though is how it interacts with the increasing identitarian movements in the EU (scotland and catalonia on the left, and with the identitarians on the right) - It's the EU that in many ways sustains these movements and, arguably, effectively created them.
In regards to brexit, the sole reason UKIP ever became a functional party was the EU parliament.

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This but unironically. Competitive markets kill nepotism pls.

Indeed but distorting the market to favor themselves is something no one ever engages in.

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That is if we are all equally competing in a market for the same end goal. You and PrimaryColor are mistaken in assuming everyone will play the game the same way or for the same reason and with the same "WIN" scenario in mind.

Accepting that some (((people))) value their tribe over themselves is hard to fathom for some people, i know it took me some time to get that.

(((Ironic usage here guys)))

[Theodarzna]

Accepting that some (((people))) value their tribe over themselves is hard to fathom for some people, i know it took me some time to get that.

(((Ironic usage here guys)))

It is a matter of priorities. I have perhaps an intense and pronounced love of a specific language, a specific culture, a specific people and family more so than perhaps is common in the western world. Hell, I'm only in the United States originally so my mother would have to go alone and feel bad.

Not everyone is motivated for the same reasons is the point. I might value family, the clan or the tribe or whatever over other things. The bonds of family and community might prove their own value, and indeed might be offering something of greater significance than the atomized individualist world will provide. The continued maintenance of that bond of a community has many benefits, perhaps some downsides and costs.

[NED funded]

Indeed but distorting the market to favour themselves is something no one ever engages in.[/I]

Indeed, regulations and monopolies are a poison to competitive markets. That is not to say that it is impossible to achieve one, and I'd wager to say a more homogenous culture will tend to drift towards capture more so than a multicultural one.

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That is if we are all equally competing in a market for the same end goal. You and PrimaryColor are mistaken in assuming everyone will play the game the same way or for the same reason and with the same "WIN" scenario in mind.

The same WIN scenario is ultimately the same for most businesses, capture the market. The methods and motivations might vary, but the end goal is the same.

[Theodarzna]

The same WIN scenario is ultimately the same for most businesses, capture the market. The methods and motivations might vary, but the end goal is the same.

Are businesses living entities? I was under the impression you had to be a living thing to have a goal.

[Sky High]

why would they? the GOP actually caters to their base and look how well that pans out for them. the Dems would do better if they did that a fraction of the that in terms of actual policy and not just grandstanding. but as it stands just as with the gerrymandering thing if the GOP sees a chance to get the upper hand they'll take it, shit-heels the lot of them.

[Deleted]

The fun thing here is that there are two countervailing movements in the EU, one is In varietate concordia - I.e to craft the EU as a analogue for the US, where all states remain Nations, and the other, is creating a European Nation (Frankly somthing somewhat more acheivable in my book).
The crucial thing to note about the first option though is how it interacts with the increasing identitarian movements in the EU (scotland and catalonia on the left, and with the identitarians on the right) - It's the EU that in many ways sustains these movements and, arguably, effectively created them.
In regards to brexit, the sole reason UKIP ever became a functional party was the EU parliament.

I die a bit inside when I listen to team Brexit cry "muh sovereignity", when it's the democratization of the institutions what led us here.
As for the path forward... I think Schuman resonates today louder than ever: Europe will not be made all at once, or according to a single plan. We're still getting to understand how much in common we have despite our insistence in cultural chasms.

[Theodarzna]

I die a bit inside when I listen to team Brexit cry "muh sovereignity", when it's the democratization of the institutions what led us here.
As for the path forward... I think Schuman resonates today louder than ever: Europe will not be made all at once, or according to a single plan. We're still getting to understand how much in common we have despite our insistence in cultural chasms.

Destroying cultural chasms, however, tends to come at the expense of minority cultures. This is some level smacks of the same treatment as before the EU, in which everyone was supposed to dissolve into the same dominate culture as before.

From my vantage point I see little different between that aspect of it and the UK's older policies towards the Welsh language and other European States attitudes towards minority cultures and languages which happen to be in these countries as an artifact of the Medieval periods feudal structure (Basque country, Catalonia, Brittany, Wales) or just outright wars of conquest after it. In other words, it is easy to advocate everyone becoming ONE when you can rest confidently knowing for oneself that involves no changes or losses whatsoever.

[PC2]

Society doesn't function if people don't reciprocate - And if society doesn't function, it doesn't really matter if the state functions, because it generally soon won't.

That's why we need priorities. Nation state > market > socialism. The people who don't function will be in the lowest category. If socialism is a high priority then non-functional people will turn the society into a shithole.

[Machismo]

We have an administration that just got rid of one of its own people after accusations surfaced that he beat his two ex-wives. They then had the audacity to try and blame liberals, and complain that people's lives shouldn't be ruined by accusations.

Seriously, you cannot make this shit up. That is how fucking ridiculous this administration has become.

[Elegiac]

That's why we need priorities. Nation state > market > socialism. The people who don't function will be in the lowest category. If socialism is a high priority then non-functional people will turn the society into a shithole.

Clearly you have no idea what any of those "priorities" mean, if you can rank them in a meaningful fashion.

[NED funded]

Are businesses living entities? I was under the impression you had to be a living thing to have a goal.

People group together and form organizations. Organizations have goals. Businesses are organizations. I don't want to sound like a douchebag, but c'mon..

[Elegiac]

Destroying cultural chasms, however, tends to come at the expense of minority cultures. This is some level smacks of the same treatment as before the EU, in which everyone was supposed to dissolve into the same dominate culture as before.

From my vantage point I see little different between that aspect of it and the UK's older policies towards the Welsh language and other European States attitudes towards minority cultures and languages which happen to be in these countries as an artifact of the Medieval periods feudal structure (Basque country, Catalonia, Brittany, Wales) or just outright wars of conquest after it. In other words, it is easy to advocate everyone becoming ONE when you can rest confidently knowing for oneself that involves no changes or losses whatsoever.

And as has been shown repeatedly, your vantage point is entirely wrong. The EU has been one of the main drivers of preservation of local cultures and local industries against globalisation.

Suddenly your buying into Farage's bullshit makes a lot more sense.

[PC2]

Clearly you have no idea what any of those "priorities" mean, if you can rank them in a meaningful fashion.

I ranked them correctly. You don't like it because you want socialism to be the foundation of society.