Varian Jaina and what could have been?

[Ticj]

I hope you are kidding. Of all the Alliance members there the only heavy hitter is Jaina, followed by Varian (who also got taken down by random felguards) and Tyrande. Gelbin is useless without his mech, Moira has no combat feat, and Anduin has been stated to suck at combat in various occasions.

Meanwhile Horde has Thrall, the most powerful shaman and a decent gladiator prior to that. Sylvanas is a seasoned vet and has proven her abilities in her one on one with Genn. They also have Baine, who is Garrosh's equal if not superior.

Thrall couldn't use his shaman abilities in the room, remember that. He's a good warrior, but at this point Jaina has that thunder king infused staff with which she could probably kill most of the horde in there.

Jaina is extremely op, don't believe me? look at the recent stormwind scenario for BfA.

[Clone]

Jaina's power, who can say what she is capable of. Given how Thalyssra is shitting her pants in the alpha scenario though, i'll go with her being strong enough to make quick work of the room.

Have you played the alpha build? Otherwise this is just the latest rumor the Alliance is latching themselves onto.
Thrall? dude's clearly still exhausted from his fight with Garrosh. Who, mind you, was not actually empowered by the old god juice until partway through the fight, AFTER his fight with Thrall. Can't forget that he was unable to call on the elements there. Garrosh's dark shaman saw to that.

Vol'jin. Kek.

Who went out the same way as Varian.

Baine is an unknown, could be great, could be a laughing stock.

Garrosh admitted to himself that Baine is his equal, an alternate version of Baine beat Garrosh too.

That leaves... Sylvanas? Moira, mind control that banshee for us will ya?

Of all the shit you give Baine for being unknown, you sure give Moira a lot of slack.
Realistically, there would have been casualties on both sides, but to think the horde walked out of that room with a win is just delusion of the highest degree. Baine and Sylvanas would have been the toughest opponents to take down for sure but they would have eventually fallen.

Second edit: Varian was winning against Garrosh during Wolfheart. They started on even footing but Garrosh was running out of steam while Varian's Lo'Gosh thingo was giving him infinite stamina. Varian SOUNDLY won this fight when he disarmed Garrosh and wounded him.. The tides of war fight was on even footing with a 'slight' advantage to Garrosh, but the fight was interrupted. Try again for a zeni?

The only reason Varian won was because of his magical buff.

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Thrall couldn't use his shaman abilities in the room, remember that. He's a good warrior, but at this point Jaina has that thunder king infused staff with which she could probably kill most of the horde in there.

Jaina is extremely op, don't believe me? look at the recent stormwind scenario for BfA.

The dark shamans were killed way before his show down with Garrosh.

[Ticj]

Have you played the alpha build? Otherwise this is just the latest rumor the Alliance is latching themselves onto.
Thrall? dude's clearly still exhausted from his fight with Garrosh. Who, mind you, was not actually empowered by the old god juice until partway through the fight, AFTER his fight with Thrall. Can't forget that he was unable to call on the elements there. Garrosh's dark shaman saw to that.

Who went out the same way as Varian.

Garrosh admitted to himself that Baine is his equal, an alternate version of Baine beat Garrosh too.

Of all the shit you give Baine for being unknown, you sure give Moira a lot of slack.
Realistically, there would have been casualties on both sides, but to think the horde walked out of that room with a win is just delusion of the highest degree. Baine and Sylvanas would have been the toughest opponents to take down for sure but they would have eventually fallen.

The only reason Varian won was because of his magical buff.

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The dark shamans were killed way before his show down with Garrosh.

So you're just going to still ignore that it actually showed Thrall not being able to use his shaman abilities in a cutscene RIGHT before we faced down Garrosh?

[Rosalynda]

The dark shamans were killed way before his show down with Garrosh.

The rest of what you said was... hard to read.

But this, if this was the case then Thrall would have been able to use his shaman powers against Garrosh but he could not because the effect was still in play. If a fight broke out in Garrosh's throne room, the best Thrall could do is swing his hammer. The elements were unable to answer his call. Garrosh says this right before they fight, long after the dark shaman are dead.

[Friendlyimmolation]

The rest of what you said was... hard to read.

But this, if this was the case then Thrall would have been able to use his shaman powers against Garrosh but he could not because the effect was still in play. If a fight broke out in Garrosh's throne room, the best Thrall could do is swing his hammer. The elements were unable to answer his call. Garrosh says this right before they fight, long after the dark shaman are dead.

Alternatively Sylvanas goes ghost mode, flies through a few Alliance leaders and kills them, or screams and cancels out all the Alliance leader's spells.

Thrall also kept in contact with the elemens, the whole "Never powerless, never alone" He lost because Garrosh was juiced, not because he couldn't access the elements (which he could)


To say the fight would be one sided would to be biased.

[Highwhale]

I'm doubt all of Horde leaders will go in fight with Varian and Co if Varian and Jaina decided to dismantle the Horde.

The only one who 100% will give fight will be Thrall/Sylvanas/Vol'jin.

I'm not sure about Baine / Lor'Themar / Gallywix

[Friendlyimmolation]

I'm doubt all of Horde leaders will go in fight with Varian and Co if Varian and Jaina decided to dismantle the Horde.

The only one who 100% will give fight will be Thrall/Sylvanas/Vol'jin.

I'm not sure about Baine / Lor'Themar / Gallywix

Baine would, he wouldn't stand back and watch them fight Thrall/ Voljin, Lor'themar would, his loyalty to the Horde got boosted hard after Jaina's actions. Gallywix would be the only one with potential to try to sit it out. And he could aid in the fight by sitting on Anduin.

[Zuben]

It wouldn't have been as simple as ending the Horde then and there. Like Anduin noted back then, it would've been long and bloody, leaving the Horde crushed and Alliance in an extremely weakened state.

Also, let's remember the third factions that won the war against Legion consisted of heroes from both factions, not just the Alliance.

Ideal would be for the two factions to fuse into one faction. Not like it couldn't be done with great effort, since a race as incompatible with the Horde as blood elves are prospering on the red team. I don't wish for one grand faction, though, since I enjoy faction conflict.

[Uoyredrum]

Ahh right, so we're twisting things now with famous horde bias. Gotchya.

Pot, meet kettle.

Jaina's power, who can say what she is capable of. Given how Thalyssra is shitting her pants in the alpha scenario though, i'll go with her being strong enough to make quick work of the room.

Agreed, she's a lot more powerful than people are giving her credit for.

Thrall? dude's clearly still exhausted from his fight with Garrosh. Who, mind you, was not actually empowered by the old god juice until partway through the fight, AFTER his fight with Thrall. Can't forget that he was unable to call on the elements there. Garrosh's dark shaman saw to that.

The Dark Shaman were already dead at that point, so who knows if he was still blocked from calling the elements there? Plus Garrosh did already have some old god powers, his axe didn't normally have eyeballs on it.

Gallywix? Relatively unknown, most likely on even footing with Gelbin.

With their mechs, probably even, without gallywix is a clear winner.

Vol'jin. Kek.

Varian kek. I'd probably put my money on Vol'jin since he's both a great fighter and has his shadow hunter abilities plus training as a monk. Varian is a better fighter, but it doesn't mean much if Vol'jin just hexes him. In terms of fighting abilities, Varian probably isn't "that" superior anyway outside of his infinite stamina.

Baine is an unknown, could be great, could be a laughing stock.

He's garrosh's equal, so in this fight he's basically top tier.

That leaves... Sylvanas? Moira, mind control that banshee for us will ya?

Well, mind control doesn't work on undead, plus she can just silence moira with her scream. She's also a legendary ranger who also has the abilities of a necromancer/banshee. So, she silences moira and shoots her in the face before she can react. Oh and as a banshee, she also has AMS if we go by WC3. She also has mind control and can turn invisible.

Realistically, there would have been casualties on both sides, but to think the horde walked out of that room with a win is just delusion of the highest degree. Baine and Sylvanas would have been the toughest opponents to take down for sure but they would have eventually fallen.

I agree that it's not cut and dry. The biggest players on each side are jaina and sylvanas. The main thing is that sylvanas can silence everyone, and the alliance is screwed. If that fails, it's pretty even overall. Jaina is extremely powerful but I can see her being an early target and having to deal with a shaman, shadow hunter and dark ranger all at once is probably pretty bad, even for her. If they take her down right away, the horde almost certainly wins that fight.

[Hyral]

SoO was the ending of the franchise, people are just playing unending filler now.

[Highwhale]

SoO was the ending of the franchise, people are just playing unending filler now.

I would say Warcraft died with Vanilla.

[Leodok]

We know that Alliance and Horde did the smallest to defeat BL.

Go to Argus and count everyone in the Vindicaar. More than half the people there are Alliance. And the rest joins the Alliance shortly after the whole thing. The ship itself belongs to the draenei, an Alliance race. They called for that campaign and they led it.

Almost forgot - no stupid BFA.

Which is a perfect reason why this whole scenario is terrible.

[Logwyn]

I hope you are kidding. Of all the Alliance members there the only heavy hitter is Jaina, followed by Varian (who also got taken down by random felguards) and Tyrande. Gelbin is useless without his mech, Moira has no combat feat, and Anduin has been stated to suck at combat in various occasions.

Meanwhile Horde has Thrall, the most powerful shaman and a decent gladiator prior to that. Sylvanas is a seasoned vet and has proven her abilities in her one on one with Genn. They also have Baine, who is Garrosh's equal if not superior.

You forgot to throw Velen into all the Alliance side? Alleria? Turalyon? All you have to do is get someone to challenge Sylvanas..... beat her and take over the Horde as war chief. Get Illian to come back and take over the Horde would be fun and a quirky story line....

Jaina was right about the horde with the current leadership and Garrosh's leadership. A horde led by Thrall would be a horde I think Jaina could live with maybe....

[Rosalynda]

Alternatively Sylvanas goes ghost mode, flies through a few Alliance leaders and kills them, or screams and cancels out all the Alliance leader's spells.

Thrall also kept in contact with the elemens, the whole "Never powerless, never alone" He lost because Garrosh was juiced, not because he couldn't access the elements (which he could)


To say the fight would be one sided would to be biased.

The fight isn't one sided for sure, but it is heavily weighed in the alliance's favour. There would most definitely be casualties. But hey, if we're gonna go with your sylvanas thing, then we may as well go the full mile and have someone cast shackle undead on her before she can do a thing. We also cant forget that she is the kind of person who would rather retreat, which she likely would do.

And yeah, Thrall was powerless. He was never alone of course, he had his allies with him. Unless you're thinking he entered anime territory, but that is an entire can of worms that should stay out of this thread in all likelyhood.

Either way, it would have been a bloodbath. HOWEVER, i do not think "dismantle the horde" would have come down to a fight. It would likely have come down to the Alliance threatening the Horde with death if they did not go through with their demands. Demands which, sadly, Baine, Vol'jin and Thrall would likely have followed, leaving Sylvanas to run away like Snidley Whiplash and Lol'themar to cave in because he had no other option.

Pot, meet kettle.



Agreed, she's a lot more powerful than people are giving her credit for.



The Dark Shaman were already dead at that point, so who knows if he was still blocked from calling the elements there? Plus Garrosh did already have some old god powers, his axe didn't normally have eyeballs on it.



With their mechs, probably even, without gallywix is a clear winner.



Varian kek. I'd probably put my money on Vol'jin since he's both a great fighter and has his shadow hunter abilities plus training as a monk. Varian is a better fighter, but it doesn't mean much if Vol'jin just hexes him. In terms of fighting abilities, Varian probably isn't "that" superior anyway outside of his infinite stamina.



He's garrosh's equal, so in this fight he's basically top tier.



Well, mind control doesn't work on undead, plus she can just silence moira with her scream. She's also a legendary ranger who also has the abilities of a necromancer/banshee. So, she silences moira and shoots her in the face before she can react. Oh and as a banshee, she also has AMS if we go by WC3. She also has mind control and can turn invisible.


I agree that it's not cut and dry. The biggest players on each side are jaina and sylvanas. The main thing is that sylvanas can silence everyone, and the alliance is screwed. If that fails, it's pretty even overall. Jaina is extremely powerful but I can see her being an early target and having to deal with a shaman, shadow hunter and dark ranger all at once is probably pretty bad, even for her. If they take her down right away, the horde almost certainly wins that fight.

Oooo, a horde supporter with a brain, i like you.

Really, if it came down to a fight, a lot of it would hinge on whether someone can shut down Sylvanas quick enough. Given the presence of 3 priests and a mage though, i'd have to say she does not really have a chance. If we go with her scream affecting everyone, it affects EVERYONE, including her allies. Silence would also in all likelyhood not last long enough to keep all 3 priests and the mage silenced long enough for her to roflstomp the entire alliance leadership. And lastly, Jaina could just spellsteal AMS.

And as said above, the dark shaman died long before and his shaman powers were STILL sealed when he fought Garrosh. In this situation, Thrall has no access to them. (unless you wanna go anime, in which case EVERYONE gets to go anime)

[Friendlyimmolation]

The fight isn't one sided for sure, but it is heavily weighed in the alliance's favour. There would most definitely be casualties. But hey, if we're gonna go with your sylvanas thing, then we may as well go the full mile and have someone cast shackle undead on her before she can do a thing. We also cant forget that she is the kind of person who would rather retreat, which she likely would do.

And yeah, Thrall was powerless. He was never alone of course, he had his allies with him. Unless you're thinking he entered anime territory, but that is an entire can of worms that should stay out of this thread in all likelyhood.

Either way, it would have been a bloodbath. HOWEVER, i do not think "dismantle the horde" would have come down to a fight. It would likely have come down to the Alliance threatening the Horde with death if they did not go through with their demands. Demands which, sadly, Baine, Vol'jin and Thrall would likely have followed, leaving Sylvanas to run away like Snidley Whiplash and Lol'themar to cave in because he had no other option.

Thrall used his shaman powers to break the shackles the Dark Shaman had created at the start of the pre-fight RP, Thrall was not powerless.

You can't shackle an undead if you can't cast. I'd go with the reflexes of an elf over a dwarf. I don't think Sylvanas would retreat in this fight, not when her odds of winning were the strongest they would be.

By the way, Sylvanas's screams only harm her enemies, they empower her allies, that's magic for you.

Ultimately the "Dismantling " would have taken more years of warfare, and years more because trying to contain an entire race of people would just make more rebels appear the harder they tried to squeeze. It would have weakened the Alliance to the extent that the Legion would smash them when they returned. I think in that case the Horde races would laugh before the legion killed everyone.

Nice sig by the way.

[Highwhale]

Thrall used his shaman powers to break the shackles the Dark Shaman had created at the start of the pre-fight RP, Thrall was not powerless.

You can't shackle an undead if you can't cast. I'd go with the reflexes of an elf over a dwarf. I don't think Sylvanas would retreat in this fight, not when her odds of winning were the strongest they would be.

Ultimately the "Dismantling " would have taken more years of warfare, and years more because trying to contain an entire race of people would just make more rebels appear the harder they tried to squeeze. It would have weakened the Alliance to the extent that the Legion would smash them when they returned. I think in that case the Horde races would laugh before the legion killed everyone.

Nice sig by the way.

If we talking about reflexes i think Varian would cut off her head before she opened her mouth.

[Rosalynda]

Thrall used his shaman powers to break the shackles the Dark Shaman had created at the start of the pre-fight RP, Thrall was not powerless.

You can't shackle an undead if you can't cast. I'd go with the reflexes of an elf over a dwarf. I don't think Sylvanas would retreat in this fight, not when her odds of winning were the strongest they would be.

Ultimately the "Dismantling " would have taken more years of warfare, and years more because trying to contain an entire race of people would just make more rebels appear the harder they tried to squeeze. It would have weakened the Alliance to the extent that the Legion would smash them when they returned. I think in that case the Horde races would laugh before the legion killed everyone.

Nice sig by the way.

Yeah, i figure you kinda fit my sig perfectly. It's kinda why you cannot be taken seriously here. Thanks for pointing it out

[Aucald]

Talking about the collection of "what if's" and "maybe's" and "how about's" of this kind of fight is essentially meaningless - the two cores of racial leaders are basically hard-counters for one-another. The only two outcomes for this kind of fight is everyone getting neutralized by their counter and so no one is ultimately harmed, or everyone counters everyone else and they all probably die in the process. Option #1 dismantles nothing, and basically dissolves in a total war scenario (which we're going to basically see play out in BfA apparently), and Option #2 dismantles both the Horde and the Alliance setting everything back to zero.

[Friendlyimmolation]

If we talking about reflexes i think Varian would cut off her head before she opened her mouth.

Doubtful, not only would he have to get through the other Horde leaders, but he seemingly has lost his Lo'gosh powers, or they don't work in non elven lands.

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Yeah, i figure you kinda fit my sig perfectly. It's kinda why you cannot be taken seriously here. Thanks for pointing it out

I see, nothing quite like bragging that you can't handle opinions about a fictional character different than your own.

Even better when it seemingly triggers you so much that you equate Sylvanas to Hitler and say people should be on a FBI list, make sure not to trip and fall off your ego.

[Super Kami Dende]

I think that dismantling the Horde by assimilating them into the alliance would've been the best choice at the time. Sign some Treaties allow the more temperate races like Blood Elves and Taurens to govern semi-autonomously. I think after the Kor'kron slaughtering the Trolls outside the city en masse even Vol'jin would've been open to being a semi-autonomous leader that was overseen by the Alliance.

I think the Orcs and Undead are really the only 2 Races you would have a struggle with to behave at that point and if they were smart and got say Thrall and Varok to come to a peaceful solution for assimilation and self governance they would have worked out.

Just burn the Undercity to the ground with all the Forsaken locked inside.