R.I.P. First Aid (BfA)

[Vespene]

I'll fondly remember ice trapping someone while I bandaged to full, halfway through a duel.

Towards the conversation though... I think it's time to simplify professions overall. There's too many, with too many subclasses.

[DeltrusDisc]

It's always been useful. For normal Valithria for classes that dont have heals. Well, until they made her skippable.

lol

That hasn't been a necessity to playing the game since late Wrath. Don't try and say "always" been useful. hahaa

[Airwaves]

I don't think I have used a bandage since BC. It will not be missed. Now they just need to remove levels from fishing so it's less fucking annoying.

[rhorle]

You have to worry about balance? WTF. Why?

Then you are clue less to game design. If you can possibly think of how having a high healing item available would impact balance then you have no business discussing any game design. If a bandage for example healed 100% of your hit points you don't see how that could impact the balance of things? Fights would have be designed with it in mind or certain mechanics and abilities could become trivial. It would then be required that people have bandages for the encounter.

First aid is useless only because it has been ignored for so long. I'm sad to see it go. It's one less way, a relatively meaningless way, of developing a character.

Because it provides stuff that is easily gained from other means. If I want a heal over 8 seconds I will just eat food for 2 seconds longer and gain a buff to my stats. Or use mage food that provides more over that period of time. Or use a health stone. Bandages have always been a niche use and have no place in WoW. It has nothing to do with it being ignored.

You are sad to see a meaningless way to develop a character go? Seriously? It has no meaning by your own words yet you care for it. You are just trolling at this point.

I hate to see another facet of character development killed off because blizzard decided, awhile ago, to not maintain its usefulness.

Creating Bandages is not character development. You can still create bandages so all of that meaningless (your words) character development is still there. First Aid as a separate skill has no point in WoW. There is little they can do to actually make it have impact and for all your bluster you haven't done anything to point out otherwise.

They have tried to make it cure poisons, bleeds, etc. They have tried to give it NPC quests. It hasn't made it meaningful. Because there is no point to creating bandages that you will only use as a novelty. It would need a essentially be a new skill in order for it to work or they would have to drastically change the way Healing and debuffs work in the game. Which wouldn't be something that a secondary profession should be required for.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not useful because blizzard refuses to make it useful. They could have done things to make it useful.

Like what? What would make you want to use a bandage? Why do you think it would be fun for them to create a debuff that can only be removed by a secondary profession? If it could be removed by a class wouldn't it always be more useful to use that class?

- - - Updated - - -

Considering that Blizzard has maintained the usefulness of far more complex trade skills, while keeping them balanced, expansion to expansion, no, I don't think I'm underestimating the effort required at all. First aid should have been in the mix each expansion due to how easy it is to maintain its usefulness. Over estimating the effort is an easy way to let Blizzard off the hook for being lazy.

Because those more complex trade skills actually provide useful things. And even then trade skills loose usefulness as the expansion goes on.

[GreenJesus]

I don't see why Blizzard doesn't just let you have all professions on one character. ESO lets you level up all professions, however professions actually matter in that game and are nearly required. If you don't have max professions you get less bonus from potions/food, and upgrading armor from purple to yellow is drastically more expensive. WoW has catered so hard to the "I only want to raid and nothing else" audience that the entire rest of the game doesn't matter anymore and it is pretty sad. There is no reason why professions can't give legit boosts anymore.

[thealmightymoo]

I havnt even bothererd to level it since wrath on any new characters i have made.

it's useless

[Spl4sh3r]

As long as the bandages doesn't have a requirement of Tailoring to use I don't mind.

[Kreusa]

TBC probabaly

[Hurriy]

Probably. When was the last time it was useful?

Vanilla onyxia's lair.

in between levelling wands and hand to hand skills

[callipygoustp]

Then you are clue less to game design. If you can possibly think of how having a high healing item available would impact balance then you have no business discussing any game design. If a bandage for example healed 100% of your hit points you don't see how that could impact the balance of things? Fights would have be designed with it in mind or certain mechanics and abilities could become trivial. It would then be required that people have bandages for the encounter.

Who said anything about having the bandages become a high healing item? They've never been a high healing item. Don't make up an extreme scenario that makes no sense in an attempt to prove a point. First aid merely needed to stay in line with all other healing related changes or at the least in line with the change in character health pools. That's it, nothing else. Nothing over powered. Nothing that would unbalance the game.

Because it provides stuff that is easily gained from other means. If I want a heal over 8 seconds I will just eat food for 2 seconds longer and gain a buff to my stats. Or use mage food that provides more over that period of time. Or use a health stone. Bandages have always been a niche use and have no place in WoW. It has nothing to do with it being ignored.

Yes, I've heard this argument from Blizzard and from some players: less is more. I disagree: more is more.

You are sad to see a meaningless way to develop a character go? Seriously? It has no meaning by your own words yet you care for it.

I said "relatively meaningless". Now you're resorting to cherry picking my comments to make a point? Come on.

Yes, I am sad. The game should have more ways to define a character not less. Even if some of those ways are at the bottom end of the "meaningful" scale, yes, I want them. More choices > less choices.

You are just trolling at this point.

stfu

Creating Bandages is not character development. You can still create bandages so all of that meaningless (your words) character development is still there.

It is character development, far less meaningful than levels or one of the better fleshed out trade skills, but it IS still character development.

First Aid as a separate skill has no point in WoW.

It did have a purpose: it was a reasonable method of healing yourself while in combat. Over time, due to the skill being ignored, it became useless.

There is little they can do to actually make it have impact and for all your bluster you haven't done anything to point out otherwise.

I, and others, have stated simple ways of making the skill useful. This is in opposition to the "bluster" of "it can't be made useful" which ignores the fact that it was at one time useful. Either you're selectively not reading those comments or you are just looking to argue for the sake of arguing.

They have tried to make it cure poisons, bleeds, etc. They have tried to give it NPC quests. It hasn't made it meaningful. Because there is no point to creating bandages that you will only use as a novelty. It would need a essentially be a new skill in order for it to work or they would have to drastically change the way Healing and debuffs work in the game. Which wouldn't be something that a secondary profession should be required for.

First aid was useful in the past. Ramping it up to where it should be if it was leveled properly expansion to expansion would have resulted in the skill being just as useful today. It doesn't need to do more. It doesn't need to tie into quests. I and others have stated how first aid was useful in the past. First aid was never anything fancy but back in TBC and Wrath it was actually useful. Further, why would it be like a new skill when it would merely be doing what it already did in the past?

Because those more complex trade skills actually provide useful things. And even then trade skills loose usefulness as the expansion goes on.

Not all trade skills, or skills, need to be of the same level of usefulness (or complexity). First aid was never a highly useful skill. It was however useful in some situations for those characters that chose develop the skill. A niche in the over all development of a character but far from completely useless.

[rhorle]

Who said anything about having the bandages become a high healing item? They've never been a high healing item. Don't make up an extreme scenario that makes no sense in an attempt to prove a point

So it needs to be made useful by making it not useful at all? Great logic there. There is no reason for a low healing item in today's WoW. It would be faster to spend the time trying to kill your target rather then healing in-combat for a low amount over 8 seconds. Out of Combat means will be faster. Bandages have no place in the game any more. They don't make sense to be as powerful as health stones or Alchemy pots from a secondary. They can be competitive as a tailoring item that shares the same cool down.

Yes, I am sad. The game should have more ways to define a character not less. Even if some of those ways are at the bottom end of the "meaningful" scale, yes, I want them. More choices > less choices.

Relatively meaningless is still meaningless. Nothing was cherry picked. You are still whining about a "relatively" meaningless thing being removed. You are using the argument that it is defining your character by existing while claiming it is relatively meaningless. Well if it is relatively meaningless then it isn't defining the character that much. The choice is leveling up a meaningless profession shouldn't be the choice that any one defends. Characters are not defined just for having more for the sake of it.

stfu

Yep, proves the point exactly. You are a troll for whining about a relatively meaningless thing being some big character defining system. It will still be character development just as a part of Tailoring. It isn't the product it creates isn't being removed.

More choices > less choices.

More for the sake of more is stupid. Using your logic you would be happy if Blizzard added 30 secondary professions that were a copy of First Aid because more is always better.

It did have a purpose: it was a reasonable method of healing yourself while in combat. Over time, due to the skill being ignored, it became useless.

It hasn't been ignored though. Blizzard has every expansion still implemented them and tried different ways to make the skill useful. Those ways have failed because of the other game systems. There are close to zero situations where a weak heal will be useful in combat anymore. Most classes have self heals or mitigation that would trump a bandage. And as you said it doesn't have to compete with other items which again makes is useless.

If you want something to have meaning it has to have a use. It has nothing to do with being ignored.

It doesn't need to do more.

And this is why you are a troll. You get done posting that it needs to be made more useful, and needs to be ramped up. Then you say it doesn't need to do more. If it isn't working in the way it is now then it by the very definition of the word needs to do more.

It was however useful in some situations for those characters that chose develop the skill. A niche in the over all development of a character but far from completely useless.

Because classes were built to have deficiencies. Most classes have in-combat self healing and mitigation that makes a bandage redundant. A bandage will not save you under a sustained assault. It won't even save you from most abilities. In order to do what you want it needs to be increased in power but you don't want it increased in power.

[callipygoustp]

So it needs to be made useful by making it not useful at all? Great logic there. There is no reason for a low healing item in today's WoW. It would be faster to spend the time trying to kill your target rather then healing in-combat for a low amount over 8 seconds. Out of Combat means will be faster. Bandages have no place in the game any more. They don't make sense to be as powerful as health stones or Alchemy pots from a secondary. They can be competitive as a tailoring item that shares the same cool down.

So the two options you've presented are over powered or useless. Meanwhile I've stated that the usefulness of the skill should have stayed consistent: not over powered and certainly not in their current useless state. At this point each of your responses needs to be corrected and are slightly moving the goal posts. And you called me a troll? Quit misrepresenting what is said.

Relatively meaningless is still meaningless.

You're more than welcome, of course, to redefine terms for youself just don't expect others to agree with you when you do.

Nothing was cherry picked.

I stated "relatively meaningless". You quoted me as saying "meaningless". That IS cherry picking.

You are still whining about a "relatively" meaningless thing being removed.

Figured you'd take another step down that road eventually: whining. Of course.

You are using the argument that it is defining your character by existing while claiming it is relatively meaningless. Well if it is relatively meaningless then it isn't defining the character that much. The choice is leveling up a meaningless profession shouldn't be the choice that any one defends. Characters are not defined just for having more for the sake of it.

The fact that I've called the skill "relatively meaningless" is directly in line with saying it doesn't define the character much. Regardless of how meaningful the skill is it still adds to a character that leveled the skill.

The choice is leveling up a meaningless profession shouldn't be the choice that any one defends. Characters are not defined just for having more for the sake of it.

It's an RPG, I'll defend the notion that more skills >>>>>>> less skills all day long. I like my games to have as much depth as possible. Further, characters most definitely are defined by each and every characteristic they possess.

Yep, proves the point exactly. You are a troll for whining about a relatively meaningless thing being some big character defining system. It will still be character development just as a part of Tailoring. It isn't the product it creates isn't being removed.

Yeah, more of this huh? Good man continuing down the lower road of internet posting roads.

More for the sake of more is stupid. Using your logic you would be happy if Blizzard added 30 secondary professions that were a copy of First Aid because more is always better.

You are most certainly entitled to that opinion. I disagree. More is good. Less is bad.
(of course you go with an extreme example again as if that somehow proves a point)

It hasn't been ignored though. Blizzard has every expansion still implemented them and tried different ways to make the skill useful. Those ways have failed because of the other game systems. There are close to zero situations where a weak heal will be useful in combat anymore. Most classes have self heals or mitigation that would trump a bandage. And as you said it doesn't have to compete with other items which again makes is useless.

That's not the argument; I agree: first aid in its current state is useless. The argument is that if first aid had been maintained properly it would be useful.

If you want something to have meaning it has to have a use. It has nothing to do with being ignored.

If something is ignored it loses its meaning and thus has no use. If first aid had not been ignored it would have meaning and as such would have a use.

And this is why you are a troll. You get done posting that it needs to be made more useful, and needs to be ramped up. Then you say it doesn't need to do more. If it isn't working in the way it is now then it by the very definition of the word needs to do more.

Discussing my thoughts on the topic of the thread is trolling? Give me a fucking break. Bandages need to do more than they do now. Bandages in their current state are broken. Bandages should have, if maintained properly expansion to expansions, stayed at the same level of usefulness. If bandages had maintained their usefulness expansion to expansion they would not now be broken. This is what I and others have been stating.

Because classes were built to have deficiencies. Most classes have in-combat self healing and mitigation that makes a bandage redundant. A bandage will not save you under a sustained assault. It won't even save you from most abilities. In order to do what you want it needs to be increased in power but you don't want it increased in power.

Self healing does not make bandages redundant. I have never stated bandages will save you under sustained assaults. I did't say bandages would save you from most abilities. Bandages need to have improved power. There's a large spectrum of potential healing power between over powered and under powered. I have stated, several times, that bandages merely need to stay as powerful as they once were, in a relative fashion. When bandages were at their most useful they weren't saving people from sustained damage and they weren't saving people from specific abilities. Updating bandages accordingly would change none of that.

At this point, and I truly hate to say it, cause its a personal attack of sorts, but.... I'm starting to wonder if your responses are nothing more than an inability to critically read what others have said. It seems you merely apply your narrow minded view to what I have said and then act like that is what I am arguing. My posts have been pretty straight forward. Maybe re-read them a couple times before responding next time.

[Deleted]

[SNIP]At this point, and I truly hate to say it, cause its a personal attack of sorts, but.... I'm starting to wonder if your responses are nothing more than an inability to critically read what others have said. It seems you merely apply your narrow minded view to what I have said and then act like that is what I am arguing. My posts have been pretty straight forward. Maybe re-read them a couple times before responding next time.

At this point you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.

There are several functions of RPGs. One is storytelling. For storytelling, you don't really need first aid as a game mechanic, especially not in a high fantasy setting with all kinds of magical healing, healing potions, healing stones, magical items with healing effects and leech, and even resurrection methods with different flavours (healers / warlocks / DKs / hunter pets). The other is simulation. Now, if you want to simulate a life as a medic, not a magical healer, then you of course could use bandages and such. But since WoW is notoriously bad with these things, sacrificing detail for efficiency for YEARS, it would be very inconsistent if they probably turn around and make things different for something like First Aid, when they have much more important things to work on. Really important things.

If you are really into simulation, you can always RP things with custom emotes. You don't need a useless secondary profession, especially when bandages will be still in the game, but now provided by a primary profession, and all things regarding potions (healing, antidotes etc.) can be provided by a different primary profession called Alchemy. You would just do what every other medic does: Buy your medical supplies from respective crafters and use it on your patients. Roleplay your medical skills. /thread.

[callipygoustp]

At this point you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.

Riiiight. The misrepresentation of my comments isn't an issue at all. Read the thread.

As to the rest of you comments: tangential at best. You're ignoring the conversation that was being had and heading off in a new direction. Nothing wrong with the direction you've chose, but its not in line with what I was speaking about. Shouldn't have bothered quoting me at all.

[LanToaster]

Some people are fine, have no issue, with Blizzard removing things. Some of us would rather see those things improved. You're on one side of the fence. I'm on the other. No big deal really.

Sure, why not give any suggestion on "How to Improve".

I doubt blizzard decides to remove stuff during Lunchbreak like: "Hey, lets Remove First Aid" "Nah, lets improve it!" "Nope, that would be work"

What you are doing is just spewing negativity, for the sake of it. Do you even have the First Aid skill? The Chars I play most dont even have it.

[Deleted]

It was something you didn't really do, but was still proud of to tell your friends. Now u just tell it's a basic mmorpg like any other.

Ahahaha yeah first aid is WoW selling point: "Hey lady let me tell you something...... we have first aid.". /s

Oh and in 13 pages i still need to find a post that actually explain how to improve First Aid. The only thing i see it's "Boost the healing". Wow, very engaging, interestingand complex!

[callipygoustp]

Sure, why not give any suggestion on "How to Improve".

I doubt blizzard decides to remove stuff during Lunchbreak like: "Hey, lets Remove First Aid" "Nah, lets improve it!" "Nope, that would be work"

I've given an example of how it could have been improved. Read my posts if you are sincerely interested.

What you are doing is just spewing negativity, for the sake of it. Do you even have the First Aid skill? The Chars I play most dont even have it.

I have a feeling you haven't read anything other than the last post or two but chose to spout off anyway. Negative? wtf. Read my comments.

[Yhcti]

First Aid didn't really heal for much. They should've just made it a 30-50% heal with a 5min cd or something to make it more appealing,

[LanToaster]

I've given an example of how it could have been improved. Read my posts if you are sincerely interested.

Okey, I´m looking it up.

I have a feeling you haven't read anything other than the last post or two but chose to spout off anyway. Negative? wtf. Read my comments.

By the time I posted this, I´ve read up to the Point of the Quote. But I can oblige and call you out on every Bullshit you posted.



---

For me, what it comes down to, is the number of things I can do with a character has decreased, again. With the changes, I will no longer be able to do smithing and first aid. Come bfa, it will be stick with smithing or change to tailoring if I want access to the new first aid options.

Oh my God! You have to choose your Professions on what you want to do? They should make it so, that you can have every possible Profession.

Btw, right now, the only professions that (for me) feel usefull is Alchemy, Jewelcrafting, and Enchanting. I never crafted a single piece of Armor to use with my Blacksmith the last expansions.

You've exposed the evil genius of the plan Blizz has had in place for years now: ignore a feature till no one uses it then remove it from the game at a point when no one will care. As a result.... Lingchi!

I've said it more than once: the designers at Blizzard are brilliant!

Just negativitiy here.

Are you suggesting a significant effort would have been required to maintain first aid's usefulness expansion to expansion? If so, you're expectations of design work are much MUCH lower than mine. A reasonable ROI could be reached with a decent, and I expect Bliz has a decent, design staff. Acting like ramping up the healing effect with the health pool increases is difficult is ridiculous.

This is up till now the only thing that comes remotely to a suggestion how to "Improve" First Aid, except it doesnt.
I´v never seen anyone utilizing First Aid in any situation, except when Playing Solo to heal after combat instead of Eating.

If you are solo: The only time you *should* be cornered to the point where you would need that extra bit of healing, is when you fight A: A group of Mobs, or B: A Hard Elite Mob.

Almost no Class can reliably CC a group of mobs for the amount of time you need to Heal, and most Hard Elite Mobs are Imune to CC anyway.

And in Groups, you have a Healer.

With the minimal effort required to maintain something already in existence, you couldn't do much else with the little amount of effort required.

You dont sound like an Game Designer, or Programmer. I seriously doubt you have the Qualifications to make this Statement.
First Aid was near useless in Vanilla, and has gotten even more useless over time.
There is a fine line between: "OverPowered, Mandatory, Usefull, and Useless"
With a Secondary Proefession you want to be at: "Usefull" and that spot is hard to hit.

You have to worry about balance? WTF. Why? Are high end guilds going to suddenly kill Mythic bosses faster? Are high end PvPers going to suddenly be that much more dominant? No, of course not. Worrying about balancing first aid is absolutely ridiculous and is a non-issue. So many other trade skill related items have been ramped up. There is no reason first aid couldn't have been as well.

Balance is always an Issue. Thats why we cant have nice things.
All those Restrictions on Toys? Balance.

Considering that Blizzard has maintained the usefulness of far more complex trade skills, while keeping them balanced, expansion to expansion, no, I don't think I'm underestimating the effort required at all. First aid should have been in the mix each expansion due to how easy it is to maintain its usefulness. Over estimating the effort is an easy way to let Blizzard off the hook for being lazy.

Complex Tradeskills are not per definition harder to balance. If you for example mean Engineering, just look at the Restrictions on the stuff you can create.

And Still, no mention on "why" its so easy to make First Aid usefull, but not overpowered or Mandatory.

I, and others, have stated simple ways of making the skill useful. This is in opposition to the "bluster" of "it can't be made useful" which ignores the fact that it was at one time useful. Either you're selectively not reading those comments or you are just looking to argue for the sake of arguing.

No you didnt. "Its Easy to make it" is not a suggestion.

First aid was useful in the past. Ramping it up to where it should be if it was leveled properly expansion to expansion would have resulted in the skill being just as useful today. It doesn't need to do more. It doesn't need to tie into quests. I and others have stated how first aid was useful in the past. First aid was never anything fancy but back in TBC and Wrath it was actually useful. Further, why would it be like a new skill when it would merely be doing what it already did in the past?

Well, I played since vanilla, and unless I hadn´t any kind of Food on my. I never really used it.
But to give some Numbers, with my MainChar up until the middle of Burning Crusade I used: Zero. Well, maybe they didn´t track that since Burning Crusade.
Well, and my Mainchar I play up until today nevery used a Bandage either.
It certainly was so Usefull.

How about you? Can you give some kind of Examples in which situations you were glad to have First Aid. With it beeing a so damn usefull skill, there must be Plenty.

It did have a purpose: it was a reasonable method of healing yourself while in combat. Over time, due to the skill being ignored, it became useless.

That was never true.
If you were in a Group or Dungeon:
First: Any kind of healing you could do with Bandages was insignificant to the output of any healer.
Second: Any form of Damage would interrupt the Healing, and apply the recently bandaged buff. So to get any effect you would have to take no damage for the Duration. And with the time it takes to apply bandages, the healer could have healed you 5 times over.
Third: The time spend on applying Bandages could´ve been better spend actually killing things. (Up to the point where they made the Bandage apply a Hot instead of channeling, which was btw a try to make First Aid somewhat usefull)
If you are solo, see above. The Situations you would use Bandages should not happen if you have any kind of skill.

I´ve looked at any posting you made here. And none would even offer a remote possibility of making First Aid interesting, or Usefull.
Blizzard should probably publish a diagram about bandage useage over the history of WoW.
I bet not even Warriors bother to take up First Aid anymore.

[Mteq]

Ahahaha yeah first aid is WoW selling point: "Hey lady let me tell you something...... we have first aid.". /s

Oh and in 13 pages i still need to find a post that actually explain how to improve First Aid. The only thing i see it's "Boost the healing". Wow, very engaging, interestingand complex!

might be proper to add mana and health potions to the profession, seperate ones for pvp and pve and not binding these to the power potion cooldown.

you could also add some revival mechanic to it, or pet bandages.

dd healing and mana potions, not sharing the same CD as power potions make seperate ones for pvp and pve. Make bandages usable only out side of combat (for pvp) and allow for a quicker full heal to replace stopping/eating (who eats that much really?). perhaps add some defibrillator mechanic through a special quest.

add certain debuff clearing potions, allowing for boss or raid mechanics that does massive poison damage if not healed through a potion or whatever.
add triage transmog sets, either through achievements or simply allowing them to be created or collected.
add "nurse" or "Doctor" or whatever, titles

sure, this takes away from alchemy, engineering and tailoring, but not to much wrong with that imho.

might be adding complexity for the sake of complexity, especially for in regards to the boss fights - but having the option to heal lethal poison in out door zones allows for adding said poison in out door zones, perhaps making the leveling a bit more dynamic in the process as well.