Why is the Horde evil when Alliance is the one starting the wars? (maybe spoilers)

[Mehrunes]

Horde outpost? On neutral ground? Who or what gives the Horde the right to lay claim on the wound of Azeroth and exploit it for their own needs?

This thing called "rules of land ownership". It not belonging to anyone made it up for grabs.

At any rate, no, this incident does not merit an invasion into elven lands in any way. Thats just like having the US get into a scuffle with a Russian outpost in the middle of nowhere at which point Russians attack South Korea instead. Which, for the record, does not seem warranted.

That's like, your opinion. Not supported by anything. The attacked party may overreact as they please. Especially in a world without really established rules of war. Also, your comparison doesn't really work. South Korea isn't in the same kind of military alliance with US as the Alliance members. And given how the operation in Silithus is multi-racial, it'd be an operation of US AND South Korea. So yes, Russia may invade the shit out of South Korea if they participate in an attack against them.

Precisely, Blizzard will just retcon the war-starter to whomever they wish, so this is pretty pointless.
Regarding the Silithus quests, it is pretty simple.
Horde quest does not mention them being under active attack, just that there are pesky spies, go kill 'em.
Alliance quest does not mention their spies being under attack, just that the goblins have samples, go kill 'em.
As such, whoever spills first blood basically changes depending on which faction you play and the other attack basically does not happen. This is consistent with Blizzard's treatment of quests involving the same battle for both factions. Oftentimes, if both faction's quests play out as stated, there occur contradictions. They try sometimes to have both sides succeed, for example, but usually, they do not bother and only fill in afterwards who did what. Silithus is clearly in the latter category. The horde quest giver would behave quite differently if the alliance was rampaging through their camps killing miners, and the alliance quest giver would act differently if their spies were being stomped all over the place.
Long story short, these quests only have the broad meaning 'skirmish started'. Trying to read into specific details is pointless, as the quests are not designed to give clear lore implications. Books and later quests will tell exactly who stabbed first etc.

Or perhaps they will not. Until that actually happens the prospect of a retcon is meaningless. You could argue the same thing about everything. Whoopty doo, Illidan was never freed from the Barrows Den by Tyrande because it can be retconned. And the Alliance quest doesn't actually require the player to kill the miners. Only sabotage the camp. You know, spy stuff. The miners only attack when the player's spy activities are detected. As is reflected in the Horde quests.

Not to mention the Explorer's League sets up where ever it damn well pleases and starts mining away for artifacts to bring back to the Alliance. Though the Reliquary that was set up later also tend to do the same in neutral zones but it still shows there is nothing stopping the Horde or Alliance setting up camps in Neutral areas.

And not just mining camps. Both factions set military camps all over Northrend. Something something by what right!!1!

[Deleted]

This thing called "rules of land ownership". It not belonging to anyone made it up for grabs.




That's like, your opinion. Not supported by anything. The attacked party may overreact as they please. Especially in a world without really established rules of war. Also, your comparison doesn't really work. South Korea isn't in the same kind of military alliance with US as the Alliance members. And given how the operation in Silithus is multi-racial, it'd be an operation of US AND South Korea. So yes, Russia may invade the shit out of South Korea if they participate in an attack against them.




Or perhaps they will not. Until that actually happens the prospect of a retcon is meaningless. You could argue the same thing about everything. Whoopty doo, Illidan was never freed from the Barrows Den by Tyrande because it can be retconned. And the Alliance quest doesn't actually require the player to kill the miners. Only sabotage the camp. You know, spy stuff. The miners only attack when the player's spy activities are detected. As is reflected in the Horde quests.

Horde is hardly ''the attacked party'' here. They basically occupy an important piece of land and are under strict orders to kill any alliance member within while directly damaging the enviroment further by draining azerite and then using it for power grabbing.

This in itself is an act of agression. This is basically the reason why some otherwise forgotten neutral islands in the south china sea are a big deal, or would be if any country around sets foot there.

[Mehrunes]

Yea well that territory was claimed by other entities before, the Cenarion Circle to be exact, which got wiped out. And I do not know how sending spies is actually violent action. Especially if the horde expects such spies and are instructed to kill them on sight, while the Alliance is initially wary and instructed to watch for any aggression.

Horde had a camp in Silithus since Vanilla. And the Horde camp in this questline isn't in former Cenarion Circle territory. Cenarion Circle isn't even complaining. Alliance has no jurisdiction to enforce any potential claims by Cenarion Circle either. And sending spies may not be violent (sending spies to blow things up is though), but it's hostile. Which is why spies being discovered creates international incidents. And often ends with the spying country denying everything. Because they are in the wrong.

Yea funny that, nobody seems to mention how those dwarven digsites accross neutral territories tend to get slaughtered without an "Ultimatum" or peaceful coexistence.

There is also the fact they are actually mining for metals or trinkets and not the blood of a damn titan, which accidentally is really powerfull.

Probably because none of the Dwarven digsites mentioned so far have been in neutral territory, but in Horde land. And yeah, no Titan artifacts are powerful.

Those goblin miners punched me first, I killed them all, took their Azerite. Self defense!

Except they don't. Even if you aggro any Goblins before blowing up your first shredder, you're still trespassing on Horde property. They are the ones engaging in self defense.

Also your analogy sucks btw. It would be more like we bump on the street, then you beat me up proper good because of that.

You're literally blowing shit up in the Horde camp. Alliance is the unabomber of Silithus in the quests.

By the Horde nuking down Cities full of Civilians just for the lolz instead of destroying them and trying to let their civilians escape, Alliance style, or simply conquering them, occupying them and using the Population as Hostages either to sell them or to try to get to to negotiate with the enemy faction.

You mean like Theramore, where they let the civilians flee and... Wait, that's about it as far as Horde nuke attacks go. And Alliance style? Alliance style is letting the Horde flee into Quillboar territory where they are slaughtered. And I don't see anything indicating Alliance gave a shit about Undercity population as Sylvanas frantically organizes their escape either.

I mean, conquering Theramore traditionally would have been beneficial for the Horde in the long run. They would have a bargaining chip against the Alliance, they could use Theramores economical power and ressources to finance their war effort and in the worst or best case, use Jaina as a negotiator for their cause. Or make it like Varian did. Conquer the City, tell Jaina that if she ever attacks the Horde again they will end them and leave.

What economical power and what resources? Theramore is located on a rocky island in a middle of a shitty marsh. The only economic power it may have had would have came from trading. And Horde already has a competing port spitting distance away from it. And Theramore's forces were the leading aggressor into Horde territory. That's not exactly a good negotiator.

[Alex86el]

To OP:
The playerbase doesnt see the horde as bad and alliance as good, for no reason.
Its just that in the majority of the quests involving HvsA even on the horde side, you are usually in the wrong.
Which sucks, and is the main reason why i find it hard to level Horde toons.
But some times its fun being the bad guy, hence why my main Horde char is a warlock.

Then come the fanbois who have no idea of the lore, and did a couple of thooose quests. So they rant about Allies being bad.
And of course the "edgy" ones, who in every game/story/universe side with the "missunderstood bad guys who are actually good contrary to popular belief".
Some time you can spot them by their avatars before they even say enything.

And of course, there are the ones who are a mix of the above.
For example, on this forum we have that darth nihilus guy.
Who will manipulate every single thing anyone says, in the Horde's advantage.
And never in an objective way, since in his biased mind, horde = 100%!! right and good, and allies are 100%!!!!! in the wrong, because of half-truths and more bias.
But at least he acts civilized, unlike that other guy, with that edgy "bloody facepalm" avatar.
Who knows nothing of the lore and is half-trolling/half-serious, but obviously another biased super-fanboi.

[Aquamonkey]

Thats just like having the US get into a scuffle with a Russian outpost in the middle of nowhere at which point Russians attack South Korea instead. Which, for the record, does not seem warranted.

You mean like how the USA invaded Iraq after 9/11 even though Iraq had nothing to do with it?

[Deleted]

As opposed to drawing in as much of the Alliance military as possible and destroying them? Destroying their military presence in the region. And what economical power and resources can they take from Theramore? It's in a swamp that they now control with its destruction. Its primary value was being an Alliance port on the continent; its strategic location. It has no economic value to the Horde. Maybe if it had a vault full of gold the Horde could pillage...


...or just skip that step entirely and obliterate the city.

Yeah, but then the Horde Fanboys also have to live with them being the evil faction by virtue of using means that are considered evil in-universe. The Alliance never used weapons of mass destruction, they only use traditional warfare. And when they conquered the capital of the Horde, what have they done? leave peacefully, without causing the slightest destruction or harm.

And again, after all of the two capitals that are destroyed in BfA, both are destroyed by the Horde. The Alliance yet again uses to illegitimate weapons while the Horde use them on Teldrassil and Lordaeron.

[Aquamonkey]

And when they conquered the capital of the Horde, what have they done? leave peacefully, without causing the slightest destruction or harm.

Alliance didn't conquer the Horde capital. They assaulted Orgrimmar with the Horde to depose a despot.

[Deleted]

Alliance didn't conquer the Horde capital. They assaulted Orgrimmar with the Horde to depose a despot.

And left peacefully without causing the slightest damage.

[Aquamonkey]

And left peacefully without causing the slightest damage.

Except all the damage caused busting in there.

[Zulkhan]

And left peacefully without causing the slightest damage.

That's because doing the contrary wasn't the most convenient thing to do. You had Varian standing there and pondering about the amount of Alliance casualties needed to effectively dismantle the Horde.

[Deleted]

That's because doing the contrary wasn't the most convenient thing to do. You had Varian standing there and pondering about the amount of Alliance casualties needed to effectively dismantle the Horde.

Doesn't changed the fact that the Alliance left entirely peacefully. No plundering, no damage on the city itself, no civilian casualties by the Alliance.

So why again does the Horde need to nuke Cities entirely when the Alliance just as easily can raid them without any damage?

[Zulkhan]

Doesn't changed the fact that the Alliance left entirely peacefully

It does, because Jaina wanted to fucking dismantle the Horde and the only reason Varian didn't go with it is because the Horde itself played a part in Garrosh's dethronment.

So why again does the Horde need to nuke Cities entirely when the Alliance just as easily can raid them without any damage?

You make it sound like using ginormous nukes is Horde's usual warfare. Garrosh's usage of a mana bomb empowered with the fucking Focusing Iris was an unique event instigated by Garrosh's warmongering, a plan he and a few loyalists knew shit about.

Then what else? The Blight? The Blight is no "nuke", is chemical artillery. There's nothing "evil" in using such a weapon in war, at the very most it should be used wisely to not make such use counterproductive.

[Deleted]

It does, because Jaina wanted to fucking dismantle the Horde and the only reason Varian didn't go with it is because the Horde itself played a part in Garrosh's dethronment.

But Outside of Jaine, everyone was cool with Varians decission.

You make it sound like using ginormous nukes is Horde's usual warfare. Garrosh's usage of a mana bomb empowered with the fucking Focusing Iris was an unique event instigated by Garrosh's warmongering, a plan he and a few loyalists knew shit about.

Then what else? The Blight? The Blight is no "nuke", is chemical artillery. There's nothing "evil" in using such a weapon in war, at the very most it should be used wisely to not make such use counterproductive.

They also nuke Teldrassil and Undercity.

And I'm pretty sure that chemical weapons are considered evil. But then again, we are talking about people who lobotomize their prisoners to turn them into mindslaves or use them as test subject, something the Alliance has never done. Not to forget that one of the most respected shamans of the Horde enslaved the King of Stormwind while he was on a diplomatic mission.

[Al Gorefiend]

Any conflict in WotLK between Horde and Alliance was the Alliance responding to apparent aggression by the Horde, perpetrated by the machinations of Varimathras. Despite that, a peace treaty was signed after the Lich King's defeat.

Cataclysm and subsequently MoP was spurred by ramifications of Varimathras' plans' culmination at the Wrath Gate followed by the scarcity of resources and actions of the Twilight Hammer. Tensions exploded as Garrosh decided the Horde should gloriously take anything they wanted rather than pursue diplomatic negotiations.

BfA I've not seen anything confirming how events play out to trigger the new war, but thus far we only know the Horde go to Silithus and start mining a new resource.

The Alliance doesn't start these wars, they respond to apparent Horde aggression. The problem being, the Horde is often set up by a third party to appear the aggressors.


The fact that neither the Horde NOR Alliance ever learned of the Twilight Hammer's shenanigans in Ashenvale to trigger Garrosh's war still amuses me.

Are you sure a peace treaty was signed after WotLK? I thought the Theramore summit was thwarted by the twilight's hammer.

[Aquamonkey]

Are you sure a peace treaty was signed after WotLK? I thought the Theramore summit was thwarted by the twilight's hammer.

"Alliance? In our waters?" said Garrosh. "They are in clear violation of the treaty."
Garrosh referred to a treaty between the Horde and the Alliance, signed shortly after the fall of the Lich King. Both factions had been sorely damaged by the long battle, and both sides had agreed to a cessation of hostilities, including the struggles at Alterac Valley, Arathi Basin, and Warsong Gulch, for a brief time.
--The Shattering

[Al Gorefiend]

"Alliance? In our waters?" said Garrosh. "They are in clear violation of the treaty."
Garrosh referred to a treaty between the Horde and the Alliance, signed shortly after the fall of the Lich King. Both factions had been sorely damaged by the long battle, and both sides had agreed to a cessation of hostilities, including the struggles at Alterac Valley, Arathi Basin, and Warsong Gulch, for a brief time.
--The Shattering

Brief indeed.

[Mehrunes]

Are you sure a peace treaty was signed after WotLK? I thought the Theramore summit was thwarted by the twilight's hammer.

Ceasefire, not a peace treaty. As for the Theramore summit you're talking about, that happened before WotLK.

[Mehrunes]

Horde is hardly ''the attacked party'' here. They basically occupy an important piece of land and are under strict orders to kill any alliance member within while directly damaging the enviroment further by draining azerite and then using it for power grabbing.

For it to be occupied it'd have to belong someone else. Horde settled there, as was their right due to the territory not belonging to anyone (except perhaps the incinerated remains of Silithids). Punishing trespassers is also their right, because property rights are a thing. Nothing prohibits them from damaging the environment, because there is no Paris Accord on Azeroth. Nothing prohibits the Horde from power-grabbing. You're delving deeper and deeper into wrongness the more you post.

This in itself is an act of agression. This is basically the reason why some otherwise forgotten neutral islands in the south china sea are a big deal, or would be if any country around sets foot there.

Aggression against whom? And you're bringing completely irrelevant issue here. First of all, what forgotten neutral islands in South China sea? You're conflating issue of neutral territory with unclaimed territory to begin with. Even that aside, the issue in South China Sea has nothing to do with unclaimed islands or even "neutral islands". It's about: 1. multiple countries claiming specific islands, 2. China disputing demarcation lines and 3. China building artificial islands. All revolving around the issue of exclusive economic zone extending from the islands into the sea. Which isn't remotely relevant to this topic.

[Ielenia]

Its been bothering the hell out of me lately. The Horde is almost always seen by the player base as the evil ones. But isnt it the Alliance that keeps sparking the conflicts? WotlK (into Cata and MoP) conflict was started by Varian, BfA started by Anduin, attempts at peace are typically stopped by either Nelves or a human. Zandalari seem to be joining the Horde due to Alliance screwing with them.

I mean yes, the Horde typically takes the conflicts WAY TO FAR, but they are pretty much responding to shit that the Alliance started in the first place. Then the Alliance bitch about how evil the Horde is for daring to fight back. Hell look at Theramore. It was very very clearly being used by the Alliance to start, and then supply, an invasion into the Barrens. So Horde of course attack it. Then Jaina cries about neutrality while very clearly not subscribing towards that standard herself.

What conflicts did the Alliance start, honestly? In Wrath, I don't remember any conflict started by Varian. Best I could recall was a quest back in Icecrown where you find out the Alliance was fighting the Scourge to push them off the ramparts... only to have the Horde attack them from behind and cause the death of both groups.

In Cataclysm, same thing. The Forsaken invade Gilneas, the Forsaken also Blight the living daylights out of Southshore, kidnaps humans for experimentation, and kills all the dwarves of Dun Garok. The Horde also bombed a druid school in Stonetalon Mountains. The Horde also invaded the night elves' sacred forest of Ashenvale, and killed everyone at Silverwind Refuge. And yes, I know of the attack on Taraujo.

In MoP, what do we got? The Alliance trying to recover Anduin, while the Horde is on "invade and conquer" mode. Garrosh destroyed the Pandaren's sacred land of of the Vale of Eternal Blossoms.

Not to mention, first and foremost, that the orcs are the invading species, here. They're not natives of Azeroth.

[Duckz0rs]

Not to mention, first and foremost, that the orcs are the invading species, here. They're not natives of Azeroth.

I absolutely love this argument. Humans, dwarves and gnomes are titan constructs from outer space that got corrupted into fleshy beings by old gods from another dimension. If you want to honestly use that argument, all these lands are Troll lands.