Time travel Orcs are a Tumor on the setting

[Varitok]

Can we go to AU azeroth and get Llane back? Bring Varian over too.

[ro9ue]

I feel it's a mistake to use the Time-travel AU Fake-Draenor orcs as the allied race rather than ones from Outland using those Clan Aesthetics.

This raises a lot of problems from the terrible time travel nonsense.

What do we do about duplicate characters?

Why don't the orcs and draenei just resettle there? Why doesn't the existence of AU draenor solve all the stupid resource issues between Alliance and Horde?

If someone important dies why don't we just link to ANOTHER timeline where they didn't die?

It cheapens the whole of the setting, it cheapens Outland and WC1-2.

It cheapens REAL Grom's death.

It cheapens the entire orc story arc.

Yeah this was my whole argument against WoD in general. But we're stuck with it unfortunately. Warcraft lore took a massive blow from WoD.

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Yes because time travel is so out of character in a fantasy setting, with crystal space ships, god like stone entities that created everything, sentient masters of elemental forces, talking dragons, mortal races that live for thousands of years, entities that embody light and darkness, portals that can open across dimentions, oh but CHARACTERS FROM ANOTHER TIMELINE ARE SO OUT OF CHARACTER FOR THE GAME!

Has nothing to do with that at all. Time travel is fine... but it shouldn't just be toyed with haphazardly. It has the potential to have far reaching consequences across your entire universe. There are plenty of stories that treat time travel with diligence and it works great.

Let's take Caverns of Time. There we are in the same timeline and our whole purpose to to defeat the infintie dragonflight so they don't tamper with past events. If we lose, a HUGE ripple effect would echo through our own timeline which we care about. There is also - just 1 timeline - so it's very important to preserve it. We even go so far as doing things that might be -bad- because we want to make sure things happened as is.

WoD basicalyl said nah there's other alternate realities out there. And now we have the capability to bring back any character we want and it have NO effect on the current timeline, because it's some other parallel universe. Varian's death didn't hit as hard as it would have if we didn't see Gul'dan and Grom just come back like it was no big deal.

WoD was a fucking joke and should be erased from canon. Like once you accept we can travel to alternate dimensions it means there's an infinite number of copies of character now potentially in the lore. Grom died a heroic death in WC3 and it's one of the defining moments in the series. As cool as it was to see him in a new cinematic for WoD, the cost to the lore of basically just saying "ok we can just brign back all these dudes whenever we want"... was absolutely catastrophic.

[Soeroah]

I disagree. I am very disappointed in how they handled it in WoD, and how they STILL haven't clarified how the mechanics of alternate universes work enough for us to be able to properly answer these questions, but I think bringing the Draenor orcs makes perfect sense. Many of the Mag'har were killed off in the Seige of Orgrimmar - almost all the orcs I remember following Garrosh were Blackrock or Mag'har. There are many more on Draenor. The Horde doesn't just resettle on Draenor because their home is Azeroth, now. We can't just go and pick up an important character who dies from another timeline because aside from the WoD timeline AUs have been shown to exist only temporarily, and are difficult to navigate or access. Kairoz only got to Draenor because we gave him a ton of power from the Timeless Isle and he was a Bronze dragon with memories of how to work the timeways.

It's not something just anyone can pick up and manage.

[Blamblam41]

Yes because time travel is so out of character in a fantasy setting, with crystal space ships, god like stone entities that created everything, sentient masters of elemental forces, talking dragons, mortal races that live for thousands of years, entities that embody light and darkness, portals that can open across dimentions, oh but CHARACTERS FROM ANOTHER TIMELINE ARE SO OUT OF CHARACTER FOR THE GAME!

It's only unrealistic when a 4 year old could write a better time travel plot.

It's out of character because "We will help u fite the legion" and then they show up after the Legion's dealt with 4ever.

It makes no sense because instead of pretending WoD never happened because it's literally an expansion that makes 0 sense made to sell a fucking horrible movie, they are trying to give us a reason to give a single shit about a Horde in 2018 with Grom fucking Hellscream.

Because that's what every rabid Brown Orc fan wants, the genocidal dick head from the time-travel expansion that had no relevant character development during the entire expansion that we should have strung up just for existing is now going to lead the entire race.

And don't act like this Grom is the same Grom from WC3. Fuck you. This Grom is a massive, massive coward that couldn't be assed the hold his word. Fuck in order to make him an even semi-reasonable character Blizzard had to release a 5 minute short along with the other Warlords, otherwise everyone would have been like "Grom Hell-who?"

[Aucald]

It's only unrealistic when a 4 year old could write a better time travel plot.

It's out of character because "We will help u fite the legion" and then they show up after the Legion's dealt with 4ever.

It makes no sense because instead of pretending WoD never happened because it's literally an expansion that makes 0 sense made to sell a fucking horrible movie, they are trying to give us a reason to give a single shit about a Horde in 2018 with Grom fucking Hellscream.

Because that's what every rabid Brown Orc fan wants, the genocidal dick head from the time-travel expansion that had no relevant character development during the entire expansion that we should have strung up just for existing is now going to lead the entire race.

And don't act like this Grom is the same Grom from WC3. Fuck you. This Grom is a massive, massive coward that couldn't be assed the hold his word. Fuck in order to make him an even semi-reasonable character Blizzard had to release a 5 minute short along with the other Warlords, otherwise everyone would have been like "Grom Hell-who?"

Why do people keep claiming WoD was made to help sell the "Warcraft" movie? WoD was announced on November 8, 2013, the "Warcraft" movie didn't premier until 2016. The two things also have pretty much nothing to do with one-another on a conceptual level - WoD wasn't about what the "Warcraft" movie was about as it predates the First War significantly (and goes off the rails from that track almost entirely), the characters and settings are totally different, as are the circumstances of the plot and ultimately the resolution. The "Warcraft" film has little to nothing to do with WoD and vice-versa, watching or playing one to try to get a grasp of the other would just lead to confusion.

[Skytotem]

Why do people keep claiming WoD was made to help sell the "Warcraft" movie? WoD was announced on November 8, 2013, the "Warcraft" movie didn't premier until 2016. The two things also have pretty much nothing to do with one-another on a conceptual level - WoD wasn't about what the "Warcraft" movie was about as it predates the First War significantly (and goes off the rails from that track almost entirely), the characters and settings are totally different, as are the circumstances of the plot and ultimately the resolution. The "Warcraft" film has little to nothing to do with WoD and vice-versa, watching or playing one to try to get a grasp of the other would just lead to confusion.

The theory is that when setting up the movie they wanted to refamiliarize players with the wc1and2 orc heroes since theyd been dead awhile
But WoD went through a lot of revisions and The movie went through several delays though so they didn't match up as well as originally intended

[cparle87]

1. There's no sign that the world was failing or dying in WoD, don't make shit up. And falling for Garrosh's lies isn't an excuse it's a mark against them.

2. In the fight we had with him in Talador where he killed Orgrim and Maraad. Near as I can tell we NEVER had any interaction between Garrosh and Blackhand, don't just make things up to suit your version of events.

Orgrim got a quest where he was 100% onboard with the Iron Horde and then in the next quest rebelled against Blackhand and died, he was handled TERRIBLY.


3. I would appreciate literally any reaction at all, since as you pointed out only Thrall ever addressed the absurdity of the situation.

4. The "Blades of Grass" thing is bullshit, I'm not asking for things to be spoonfed I'm asking for a story that's halfway decent. Not this "Oh here's all these guys you like but it's NOT them but it is don't think about it too much!"

5. I don't think Fake Grommash redeemed himself in the least, he did nothing to undo the damage he did, he only saved his own skin. "Draenor is free" my ass, he was the one trying to conquer and enslave it for selfish reasons.

1. It said straight up in Lord of the Clans that as Gul'dan spread fel magic and more orcs abandoned shamanism that there were droughts, famines, huge wildfires, and other natural disasters as the elemental spirits recoiled from what he did. Consider all the crazy religious shit humans did in the middle ages and before, believing them to be acts of god demanding they change their ways or expel evil from their midst. Draenor was dying long before Ner'zhul fired the finishing blow with his portals.

2. In the books it flat out said that Blackhand was the first chieftain to accept Grommash's call for a unified Horde, and jumped at the chance to build all the weapons Garrosh had brought. It's also telling that his death statement was that they (the Blackrocks) were the Warchiefs weapons and without them... I'm presuming he was going to say he'd be in danger.

You forget that while you can blow through a questing zone in an afternoon that in lore they can take weeks or even a couple months. We meet Orgrim the first time pretty early on and Durotan tries to convince him to stop, but he doesn't. The next time is near the end of the zone progression, after they've attacked Shattrath. Consider this. Weeks have passed. Weeks of watching your men slaughter civilians, roll iron stars into groups of fleeing women and children, attacking a city that obviously wasn't preparing to attack you like you were lead to believe, and watching your commander you respected revelling in it. Plenty of time to 'oh my god what have I done? I have to find a way to stop this.'

3. Plenty of MU orcs expressed their opinions on Draenor, either the old ones going it's good to be home, or younger ones referring to the stories their elders told.

4. If you're not going even going to bother to look of course you're going to be confused. Did you miss the part where Grommash lost his wife, which would change anyone, and therefore never had a son? Or how Ner'zhul still had his so not only could Kil'jaeden not manipulate him by impersonating her but there was a reasoning voice in the Shadowmoon tribe where Ner'zhul's power hungriness got out of control.

5. Yeah, I'm totally sure that after he led a war to prevent his people from being corrupted, enslaved, and later exterminated that he totally decided to rebel against the Legion only to save himself. /s

Your contempt for the very concept of AU is poisoning your ability to view what's going on. It's 'lolpandas' all over again.

[Aucald]

The theory is that when setting up the movie they wanted to refamiliarize players with the wc1and2 orc heroes since theyd been dead awhile
But WoD went through a lot of revisions and The movie went through several delays though so they didn't match up as well as originally intended

Probably the worst tie-in campaign in the history of tie-in's if that were the case. Would've been better to do an HD re-release of the WC1 RTS, or a spiffed-up release of the "Lord of the Clans" adventure game instead (I could really get behind the former even now). If someone were actually new to the Warcraft universe then playing WoD would do nothing to prepare them for the movie, or vice-versa. As an element to re-familiarize people with the historic Orcish or Human heroes it also fails; the eponymous "Warlords" of WoD have little to no bearing on their original WC1/WC2 counterparts, and just as little to do with the characters in the movie itself. The Human heroes are completely absent, except Khadgar; whose representation is perhaps one of the worst the movie has to offer and who in the game is actually the MU version of Khadgar as an older man.

[Stardrift]

Orcs from another planet are okay but we draw the line at time travelling orcs? Lolokay

[therealstegblob]

What if i don't give a damn? It's a game, relax.

Yes, god forbid someone not like something in a video game, right?

Anyways, I think it's really stupid, too. But at the same time, whatever. Any excuse to get access to all the different orc clans.

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Orcs from another planet are okay but we draw the line at time travelling orcs? Lolokay

Yes, god forbid people draw a line at confusing and poorly written time travel that ended up making no sense and was terribly handled, right?

[Stardrift]

Yes, god forbid someone not like something in a video game, right?

Anyways, I think it's really stupid, too. But at the same time, whatever. Any excuse to get access to all the different orc clans.

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Yes, god forbid people draw a line at confusing and poorly written time travel that ended up making no sense and was terribly handled, right?

Imagine actually being unable to understand the simplty of a timetravelling/dimension hopping story lol
I won't disagree with it being poorly handled IE the demon issue involving asfrasiabi
But cmon. It's as simple as counting down from 10.

[lockybalboa]

Metzen had a serious Orc fetish but he's gone now

[MikeBogina]

Probably the worst tie-in campaign in the history of tie-in's if that were the case. Would've been better to do an HD re-release of the WC1 RTS, or a spiffed-up release of the "Lord of the Clans" adventure game instead (I could really get behind the former even now). If someone were actually new to the Warcraft universe then playing WoD would do nothing to prepare them for the movie, or vice-versa. As an element to re-familiarize people with the historic Orcish or Human heroes it also fails; the eponymous "Warlords" of WoD have little to no bearing on their original WC1/WC2 counterparts, and just as little to do with the characters in the movie itself. The Human heroes are completely absent, except Khadgar; whose representation is perhaps one of the worst the movie has to offer and who in the game is actually the MU version of Khadgar as an older man.

While I dont think the movie and WoD were at all created increase sales of each other, I do think that the Horde history lesson Maraad gives does help alliance players and others understand the Horde's background.

You point out that the Human Heroes are completely absent except Khadgar in the game. The Human heroes don't need back stories as much as the Horde does in this situation. The Horde is the one making the push into the human world, they're leaving their world and their history behind, so it wont get barely any attention while every step they take in Azeroth will showcase more and more of the Azeroth side and people.

Think of it as every time you've ever seen an alien movie, where Aliens show up and attack the humans. The PoV is usually always the humans trying to live and fight back, but you're always left wondering about the aliens and where they come from and what their society looks like. Now with WoW, this is 50/50, we can't just have your regular invasion that only shows one sides world and history, so the game and especially those interesting cinematics i think can help people see the othersides story.

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Orcs from another planet are okay but we draw the line at time travelling orcs? Lolokay

They're time traveling, alternate dimension traveling, from another planet Orcs!

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Metzen had a serious Orc fetish but he's gone now

Thank god he did, or else this game would have been a single faction and we all play humans.

[Doot14]

Honestly just reading through this thread gave me a head ache. A head ache that could have been avoided by never having an alternate universe themed expansion . That's right, this comment isn't constructive at all, just here to gripe about how lame WoDs story was after all this time.

[Wildberry]

Imagine actually being unable to understand the simplty of a timetravelling/dimension hopping story lol.

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Warlords of Draenor...

[yetgdhfgh]

It was definitely a string blizz should never have pulled on but whats done is done and its pointless to ignore it cause its canon now so why not use it?

Yes it wont make sense for AU Mag'har Orcs to quest in Draenor but then it doesnt make sense for my Demon Hunter to fight Illidan in BC xpac or my DK going to the BC xpac.

I would like if blizz made all Mag'har Orcs start at level 110 just to make some sense but that seriously isnt gonna happen so you just have to shrug and get over it.

I guess iam just glad to finnaly get to play a brown orc and i have my gorehowl and my Garrosh shoulder mog ready and waiting!

[Wildberry]

It was definitely a string blizz should never have pulled on but whats done is done and its pointless to ignore it cause its canon now so why not use it?

Because characters like AU Grom cannot meaningfully interact with the story on Azeroth without cheapening their MU counterparts? Because AU characters existing in a narrative quarantine (AU Draenor) limits their ability to negatively impact the story, which "it's canon so why not use them?!?!?!" completely destroys? Because Outland Mag'har would've been an objectively better avenue for brown Orcs?

[yetgdhfgh]

Because characters like AU Grom cannot meaningfully interact with the story on Azeroth without cheapening their MU counterparts? Because AU characters existing in a narrative quarantine (AU Draenor) limits their ability to negatively impact the story, which "it's canon so why not use them?!?!?!" completely destroys? Because Outland Mag'har would've been an objectively better avenue for brown Orcs?

Back in BC i wouldve agreed but then we had the Siege of Orgrimmar where we quite literally massacred nearly all of them!

Too many years have passed and the planet was disintegrating back in BC

Now we have access to a clean planet full of orc tribes looking for some fun

Like i said i wished blizz never went down that whole alternative reality route but whats done is done.

[therealstegblob]

Imagine actually being unable to understand the simplty of a timetravelling/dimension hopping story lol
I won't disagree with it being poorly handled IE the demon issue involving asfrasiabi
But cmon. It's as simple as counting down from 10.

I'd generally say that inadequately explaining the basic nature of alternate universes (can more be created? Why did traveling back in time THIS ONE TIME take us to an alternate universe? How did traveling back in time do that? Time travel has existed in WoW before without doing this.) and not making it clear if demons/the burning legion were unique to that universe or not, down to the story being a mess in general is what one could call "confusing", but given that you lack basic control of the English language, is there any point in bothering to talk to you?

[Wildberry]

Back in BC i wouldve agreed but then we had the Siege of Orgrimmar where we quite literally massacred nearly all of them!

There's like five Void Elves, I'm not too swayed by population arguments anymore.

Too many years have passed and the planet was disintegrating back in BC

Yet Nagrand was largely fine for Thrall in pre-Cata. (Blizzard also pitched Garrosh starting an undead Iron Horde on Outland)

Now we have access to a clean planet full of orc tribes looking for some fun

Clean planet? Sure, but it's not going to be impactful on the story, considering it will never see the spotlight again. Those Orcs also negatively impact the current story.

Like i said i wished blizz never went down that whole alternative reality route but whats done is done.

The implication that it already exists isn't an argument to utilize it further, though. I don't see why people keep posting this. AU Draenor is, at the moment, largely contained and forgettable. Having AU Orcs wandering around Azeroth negatively impacts the story further. If you admit something is bad, why double down on it and make things worse?