WoW Classic Dungeons & Raids Difficulties

[Deleted]

Why do people keep assuming LFR/dungeon finder? I only proposed harder difficulty modes later down the line, without extra reward, to give more choices of content to do.

[Deleted]

There isnt people who actually want this or fantasize about it. These are active attempts of sabotage. Retail casuals trying to seed mayhem and discord in the vanilla enthusiast community simply because they dont like the idea of vanilla.

But no one is forcing them to play it... It's optional, it's not the next expansion.

[Storfan]

Why do people keep assuming LFR/dungeon finder? I only proposed harder difficulty modes later down the line, without extra reward, to give more choices of content to do.

There are plenty of ways to challenge yourself in vanilla:

1. Run any raid with less people. MC with 20 people instead of 40.
2. Run any raid without consumables
3. Run any raid without worldbuffs (this makes a HUUUGE difference in vanilla).
4. Speedrun the shit out of it.

[Echocho]

As long as there are no rewards tied to these "hard modes" and it's just about prestige I don't see a problem with them. I personally wouldn't bother but I'm sure some people would.

[Ielenia]

These retailer trolls

What did those poor guys who sell goods to the public do to you?

[babyback]

Or because they slack on using Greater fire protection potions. Or Tank getting feared and Onyxia breathing on the raid



There's also the prospect of Speedruns as a challenge. 25min BWL clears etc. Crazy things will be done!

Yea. New Horde tanks who don’t know how to stance dance will be a hoot. That’s the biggest issue I have with Classic and probably why I won’t play it. I cba with people re learn something I beat a decade ago.

[Deleted]

As long as there are no rewards tied to these "hard modes" and it's just about prestige I don't see a problem with them. I personally wouldn't bother but I'm sure some people would.

Maybe some raids won't see much use of this, like Naxx or AQ40. It would however add a nice extra bit of content for the non-raiding player base. I like my raids, but it's hard to deny there's been good reception to the mythic+ system on retail. Having more dungeons, and expanding difficulties on them, would give those types of player a lot more content to participate in.

[Teri]

Just lower your player stats via gear if you want fights to be harder.

Just because it's not automated by blizzard-set scaling levels, you can still set "rules" for your raid/dungeon group.

Ironman challenge isn't official, and people still do it.

[Storfan]

Yea. New Horde tanks who don’t know how to stance dance will be a hoot. That’s the biggest issue I have with Classic and probably why I won’t play it. I cba with people re learn something I beat a decade ago.

I'm going Alliance this time around mostly because of this.

Just lower your player stats via gear if you want fights to be harder.

Just because it's not automated by blizzard-set scaling levels, you can still set "rules" for your raid/dungeon group.

Ironman challenge isn't official, and people still do it.

Indeed! I'm going to quote myself again here:

There are plenty of ways to challenge yourself in vanilla:

1. Run any raid with less people. MC with 20 people instead of 40.
2. Run any raid without consumables
3. Run any raid without worldbuffs (this makes a HUUUGE difference in vanilla).
4. Speedrun the shit out of it.

[Echocho]

Maybe some raids won't see much use of this, like Naxx or AQ40. It would however add a nice extra bit of content for the non-raiding player base. I like my raids, but it's hard to deny there's been good reception to the mythic+ system on retail. Having more dungeons, and expanding difficulties on them, would give those types of player a lot more content to participate in.

True, but don't you think the scaling rewards is a big part of its success? For example if Normal, Heroic and Mythic raids didn't award any gear, would people bother with them or just do LFR? If the only dungeon difficulty that dropped gear was normal would people bother with heroic, mythic and mythic+?

[ydraw]

Also I imagine people will wipe on Onyxia because someone won't understand the hitbox of tail lash and will get knocked into whelps. There's no gear requirement to Onyxia as stated people 3-manned it.

I'm sure some people will wipe on Onyxia a few times. But will the best players in the world wipe 362 times on Onyxia? No, they will not.

Because raids are far, far more challenging in every way in the modern version of WoW than they were in Vanilla. Many Vanilla bosses make LFR look really difficult. Which is why it's so Ironic that "no changes" vanilla crowd disparagingly refer to current players as "retail babies".

The game is far more difficult now than it ever was in the past. The only thing that has gotten easier is that less grinding and repetition of the same content is needed in order to advance to the next raiding challenge.

[Vorkreist]

Why do people keep assuming LFR/dungeon finder? I only proposed harder difficulty modes later down the line, without extra reward, to give more choices of content to do.

Why don't you troll on your main? Banned much?

[Cassidin]

why do people keep insisting vanilla raiding was easy. this is entirely based off the fact these people have only done these raids at level 80+ and in many cases 100+ and just breaze thru them and think it "must not have been that hard back in the day" or "it was only a gear check".

this isn't true at all. the retail perception of classic is really uniformed and makes sense considering it was over 12 years ago.

people will be grinding endgame in classic servers for 2 years or maybe even more for some who miss raids every week.

I think it's because mechanic-wise they were easy.... until you take into account that most classes had one spec that was not very good and other specs that were terrible. Stats were all over the place - and at best most classes had a small niche place in a raid. Getting 40 players together that were never optimal raid makeup as - class balancing and specs were all over the place made the fights much harder than they should have been. That more than made up for the (by todays standard) simply mechanics.

Anyone going back to vanilla content and trying it now - even at the right level will find it easy as classes now are so much better than they were back then. You have to take into account the whole game - not just the actual mechanics - or difficulty of the raids themselves imo.

[Deleted]

True, but don't you think the scaling rewards is a big part of its success? For example if Normal, Heroic and Mythic raids didn't award any gear, would people bother with them or just do LFR? If the only dungeon difficulty that dropped gear was normal would people bother with heroic, mythic and mythic+?

I think rewards certainly help, and it can be done in retail because they can design around that. I'm not sure there's any reward I could propose that wouldn't go against the grain of the spirit of Vanilla WoW. Tabards? Titles? I don't have an answer to this.

That said I don't think it's always about gear, people push current retail mythic+ higher just because they can a lot of the time. There are leaderboards and some prestige to it, and I think that's incentive for some players.

Teri & Storfan
I see what you're getting at in principle, that works on a personal level, but quickly becomes pretty abstract because it's difficult to compare with others. Having a consistent metric like you do with keys provides an even field for players to compete with one another in PvE.

[ydraw]

I think it's because mechanic-wise they were easy.... until you take into account that most classes had one spec that was not very good and other specs that were terrible. Stats were all over the place - and at best most classes had a small niche place in a raid. Getting 40 players together that were never optimal raid makeup as - class balancing and specs were all over the place made the fights much harder than they should have been. .

The fights were not harder though. Gearing up was.

Once you had the gear, you stood in one place and pressed your 2 button rotation until the boss died, while the healers bound healbot to a key and pressed it repeatedly. It was a total joke and people are going to be very disappointed if they expect any kind of challenge.

[Cassidin]

For fun, and to add the possibility of further challenge later down the line without compromising the gearing process/structure.


As I said, mechanically they weren't all that complicated. Maybe we're just spoiled with addons like DBM, but today's fights have more mechanics going on in them.

Most serious raiders in "vanilla" were - and will be again I imagine - spending most of their wow time outside raids farming for hours for mats to make consumables that are needed. They wont have much time for "unrewarding fun". Non raiders will likely level up and then log in occasionally, although that is just my opinion and time will tell.

[Storfan]

I think it's because mechanic-wise they were easy.... until you take into account that most classes had one spec that was not very good and other specs that were terrible. Stats were all over the place - and at best most classes had a small niche place in a raid. Getting 40 players together that were never optimal raid makeup as - class balancing and specs were all over the place made the fights much harder than they should have been. That more than made up for the (by todays standard) simply mechanics.

Anyone going back to vanilla content and trying it now - even at the right level will find it easy as classes now are so much better than they were back then. You have to take into account the whole game - not just the actual mechanics - or difficulty of the raids themselves imo.

And lets not forget the required time investment for success. You wont be farming AQ40 and Naxx unless you put in some seriously long hours for farming and raid preparation.

[Cassidin]

What's their point? These wild fantasies and ideas won't happen anyway.

Personally I believe that many people are using the forthcoming classic servers as a vehicle to suggest what they think wow should be. They dont like current wow (I will not say retail as that makes zero sense), and dont really like the idea of classic as it was back then but hope they can convince Blizzard to make "their version of wow" instead of Classic. They wont - but people will try regardless.

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Attunement is still a fair requirement, at least if you did it pre-raiding early Vanilla when blues and greens were still bad.

(part of the reason I don't want it to start at 1.12 cause starter blue gear is far more powerful by then)

Onyxia attunement was mega! I still really remember the proud moment marching through stormwind with Marshall Windsor to unmask Onyxia in Stormwind keep. It was an amazing feeling. For those interested that never did this - look at the whole quest-chain recorded at http://www.wow-strategy.com/onyxia-a...e-quest-chain/.

I think while I don't personally plan on raiding in "new classic" I do look forward to doing that chain again - it gave a real sense of achievement.

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What did those poor guys who sell goods to the public do to you?

I'm guessing they stand on bridges and stop you leaving their stores.....

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I'm sure some people will wipe on Onyxia a few times. But will the best players in the world wipe 362 times on Onyxia? No, they will not.

Because raids are far, far more challenging in every way in the modern version of WoW than they were in Vanilla. Many Vanilla bosses make LFR look really difficult. Which is why it's so Ironic that "no changes" vanilla crowd disparagingly refer to current players as "retail babies".

The game is far more difficult now than it ever was in the past. The only thing that has gotten easier is that less grinding and repetition of the same content is needed in order to advance to the next raiding challenge.

Mechanically they were far easier yes... but due to the state of classes in wow back then and abilities - and short buffs etc.... it really evened out a fair amount.

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The fights were not harder though. Gearing up was.

Once you had the gear, you stood in one place and pressed your 2 button rotation until the boss died, while the healers bound healbot to a key and pressed it repeatedly. It was a total joke and people are going to be very disappointed if they expect any kind of challenge.

True... the fights were simpler - it was just harder to get there and get the gear to overcome your classes shortcomings. Now its a simple matter to gear up to 930 or so just by doing lfr and argos world quests. That's a far cry from how gearing up was in vanilla!

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And lets not forget the required time investment for success. You wont be farming AQ40 and Naxx unless you put in some seriously long hours for farming and raid preparation.

Totally! Around 3-4 hours farming mats for each raid!

[Kymet]

I would like to see players go into 40 man raids w/ less ppl if they want the challenge... If the raids are so 'easy' as some complain, or once they're outgeared, maybe some ppl in the community will see how little ppl it will take to clear a whole raid by today's standards. Down to 30, 20, maybe even 10 ?

It would be interesting to see results :-)

Exactly. We get so many posts asking for additional content but keep forgetting that players create their own with what they have. We have ppl soloing high m+ or raid bosses in retail for example, and it's nothing new. There's a limit to what the devs impose as content and what we do with the game as players.

[Deficineiron]

No scaling, no dungeon finder, no heroic/mythic/flex/LFR/M+.

Boss is the boss, the item is the item.

The dungeon/tier set/weapon is just that, 1 version, 1 source.

The major issue here I see is that current blizzard design requires that all content be doable by all players on some difficulty level - and worse, dungeons seem to be tuned/paced for fairly short runs, a long current dungeon run is far shorter than a short dungeon run in classic.

i bet this issue is getting more attention inside blizz that folks here would like to believe.

So, has anyone seen Jaylock recently ?

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There isnt people who actually want this or fantasize about it. These are active attempts of sabotage. Retail casuals trying to seed mayhem and discord in the vanilla enthusiast community simply because they dont like the idea of vanilla.

This thread is likely just chain-yanking by someone we all may recognize under another name, but the underlying issue of how blizzard will carry over their current core values and design theory to classic is very real.

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I'm sure some people will wipe on Onyxia a few times. But will the best players in the world wipe 362 times on Onyxia? No, they will not.

Because raids are far, far more challenging in every way in the modern version of WoW than they were in Vanilla. Many Vanilla bosses make LFR look really difficult. Which is why it's so Ironic that "no changes" vanilla crowd disparagingly refer to current players as "retail babies".

The game is far more difficult now than it ever was in the past. The only thing that has gotten easier is that less grinding and repetition of the same content is needed in order to advance to the next raiding challenge.

i would not be in the least bit surprised to see

1) resistance gear requirement for fights be reduced or functionally eliminated
2) personal loot added and/or greatly increased raid drop rates.
3) raid difficulties added as a replacement timesink for the above. this would facilitate making sure everyone kills KT while keeping some 'content' for the dedicated raid players.