Chronicle Volume III Amazon Preview

[Qualia]

How the fuck it's elven territoty when there is no single elven settlement there? Just because Tyrande said so? What else is elven? Feralas? Stonetalon? Desolace? Yea, no.
And also - Azshara attacks come before Ashenvale

It's Elven territory since the it had always been part of Zin-Ashari, which was Night Elves' lands. It doesn't matter if the NE considered the land cursed and left. If, because of a natural disasters, US citizens all leave Washington DC., are you saying that it would no longer be considered US land any longer? The same logic hold here. It's not newly discovered land, it's a land that has always been there, one that the NE lived and built a city on.

It doesn't matter which attacks come first, as the Goblin settled in Azshara - which, again, was NE's land and started terraforming it to a Horde port. The NE simply defended their land - one that they left and considered cursed, but technically their land nonetheless. Not to mention that canonically, it might not even be true that Azshara attacks come before Ashenvale (any longer, at least). Chronicle 3 stated that it was Garrosh's maneuvers on Ashenvale that raised the tension between two factions, and the Goblin's settling on Azshara, reshaping the land and creating Bilgewater Habour was only told few pages after.

[Combatbutler]

It's Elven territory since the it had always been part of Zin-Ashari, which was Night Elves' lands. It doesn't matter if the NE considered the land cursed and left. If, because of a natural disasters, US citizens all leave Washington DC., are you saying that it would no longer be considered US land any longer? The same logic hold here. It's not newly discovered land, it's a land that has always been there, one that the NE lived and built a city on.

It doesn't matter which attacks come first, as the Goblin settled in Azshara - which, again, was NE's land and started terraforming it to a Horde port. The NE simply defended their land - one that they left and considered cursed, but technically their land nonetheless. Not to mention that canonically, it might not even be true that Azshara attacks come before Ashenvale (any longer, at least). Chronicle 3 stated that it was Garrosh's maneuvers on Ashenvale that raised the tension between two factions, and the Goblin's settling on Azshara, reshaping the land and creating Bilgewater Habour was only told few pages after.

If you go into hereditary rights on lands than by all means humans don't own any scrap of land to begin with, so bringing it up as specific territory belonging to a faction should be considered meaningless, most of the current Alliance territory would belong to the trolls by default.

[Scummer]

It's more like "Let's free Lordaeron from the Horde!" When actual, although dead, people of Lordaeron tried to join Alliance and were rejected.

It wasnt in this instance as they werent a part of the Horde. It was out of fear. As I said, this was after the Third War and Fall of Lordaeron. Immediatly after these events do you really reckon anybody wasnt going to immediatly dismiss them given the events that lead to Lordaeron's destruction?

[Highwhale]

It wasnt in this instance as they werent a part of the Horde. It was out of fear. As I said, this was after the Third War and Fall of Lordaeron. Immediatly after these events do you really reckon anybody wasnt going to immediatly dismiss them given the events that lead to Lordaeron's destruction?

Plus Sylvanas and Forsaken killed and betrayed Alliance Grand Marshal and his men before it. People are forgetting facts on purpose.

[Qualia]

If you go into hereditary rights on lands than by all means humans don't own any scrap of land to begin with, so bringing it up as specific territory belonging to a faction should be considered meaningless, most of the current Alliance territory would belong to the trolls by default.

The issue is that it wasn't even hereditary - most of the current NE were the ones living back then as well thanks to the blessing up the World Tree up until very recently. Although, to that issue, I do agree that most of the land didn't belong to the current owners - be it the Alliance or the Horde. It's just that "newer" races (Human, Gnomes, Dwarves, etc.) settled on other races' land and built their settlement, gradually conquer and take over the land. It wasn't, shouldn't and wouldn't be wrong for new settlements to be attacked by the owner of the land by the time they start building their towns / cities. You can't really fault those attackers in that case, they would just be defending their land.

[Combatbutler]

The issue is that it wasn't even hereditary - most of the current NE were the ones living back then as well thanks to the blessing up the World Tree up until very recently. Although, to that issue, I do agree that most of the land didn't belong to the current owners - be it the Alliance or the Horde. It's just that "newer" races (Human, Gnomes, Dwarves, etc.) settled on other races' land and built their settlement, gradually conquer and take over the land. It wasn't, shouldn't and wouldn't be wrong for new settlement to be attacked by the natives / owner of the land by the time they start building their towns / cities.

That is the thing though at one point one should abandon the old concept of land automatically belonging to anyone, it just doesn't really end. Especially since it would justify genocidal campaigns to drive out a great deal of people from all over the world. Humans for example would have 0 territory, so they would have to be entirely uprooted and most of them culled to sustain a population on a piece of land that hadn't been taken by someone at some point, this mindset is pandorras box. Not to mention it opens the door for the elementals to basically cleanse all life on the planet and return Azeroth to her primeordeal state.

[LazarusLong]

Plus Sylvanas and Forsaken killed and betrayed Alliance Grand Marshal and his men before it. People are forgetting facts on purpose.

So traitor Garrithos is responsible for turning away two races from Alliance. Cool.

[Deleted]

If only they had taken their job more seriously in other matters and taught proper magical use to the mortals.

And it contradicts chronicle 1 good job blizz

How? what is the contradiciton

[Combatbutler]

How? what is the contradiciton

It has been cleared up

It isn't.

Nozdormu and Ysera hibernated Winterskorn Clan. Dragonflayers Clan still hibernated themselves.

[Qualia]

That is the thing though at one point one should abandon the old concept of land automatically belonging to anyone, it just doesn't really end. Especially since it would justify genocidal campaigns to drive out a great deal of people from all over the world. Humans for example would have 0 territory, so they would have to be entirely uprooted and most of them culled to sustain a population on a piece of land that hadn't been taken by someone at some point, this mindset is pandorras box. Not to mention it opens the door for the elementals to basically cleanse all life on the planet and return Azeroth to her primeordeal state.

That doesn't make sense, though. In that line of thinking, can we say that Ashenvale wasn't the NE land, and their attacks on Garrosh's invasion wasn't justified? Or most of the Barrens weren't Horde's territory (with the exception of the part around Theramore and Alliance bases until recently), and it was bad that the Horde defended against the Alliance attacks there? That doesn't sound right, not to mention that the current NE were the one living and owning that land back then as well, while most of the other NE (mainly the Highborne) who did either died of old age or turned into Naga.

Keep in mind, however, that the natives having the right to defense doesn't mean the new settlers can't, in turn, defend themselves and take over the land, though. I don't have anything against rights of conquest. I just have issue that people claim that it wasn't right for the owners of the land to try to defend it from the newcomers.

[tristannarutofan]

Holy shit.

"After Thrall had departed, Garrosh turned his gaze northwest, to the lust forests of Ashenvale. ... but that did not stop Garrosh from sending troops into the woodlands ... The horde's new incursion into Ashenvale enraged the alliance. Tensions between the factions flared, and open war seemed inevitable. ... Cairne spoke the only language the orc would understand. He challenged Garrosh to a mak'gora a ritualistic duel."

So... all that stuff Garrosh didn't do in The Shattering... he actually did do? Are you kidding me? Why are we throwing his character under the bus?

They also retconned Sylvanas into also wanting Gilneas, even though she had never shown interest in the city before Cataclysm, and everything in-universe and out of game implied that she didn't want to be in this war? Are you serious Blizzard?

What are you talking about? Garrosh did do all those things the only thing he didnt do was assassinate the scenarion circle.

And there was nothing to suggest how sylvannas felt about gilneas. Just because garrosh ordered her to take it out didnt mean she didnt want to already.

Of course blizz seems fucked up when yall literally make up lore that doesnt exist

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be sure that chronicles 3 will put Garrosh as the villain like "he was always like this, all along guys! we didn't screw him up! see? he is badie!"

And they maybe will do it sylvanas too, because you know, horde

Literally the first thing he did when he got to ogrimmar was threaten thrall , tried to take over the horde so they could go to war with the elves and take natural resources.

Character assassination my ass

Yall are fucking stupid

[Combatbutler]

That doesn't make sense, though. In that line of thinking, can we say that Ashenvale wasn't the NE land, and their attacks on Garrosh's invasion wasn't justified? Or most of the Barrens weren't Horde's territory (with the exception of the part around Theramore and Alliance bases until recently), and it was bad that the Horde defended against the Alliance attacks there? That doesn't sound right, not to mention that the current NE were the one living and owning that land back then as well, while most of the other NE (mainly the Highborne) who did either died of old age or turned into Naga.

Keep in mind, however, that the natives having the right to defense doesn't mean the new settlers can't, in turn, defend themselves and take over the land, though. I don't have anything against rights of conquest. I just have issue that people claim that it wasn't right for the owners of the land to try to defend it from the newcomers.

I never said that they can't defend themselves, what i mean is the land is there for those with the strengths to hold it, sure the night elves can fight tooth and nail to keep what they believe is theirs, but if they loose it, well tough luck. The same goes for the forsaken, they had their cozy little slime invested homeland and now it is gone, well too bad. Either they can reclaim it or not depends on their ability to do so, not that they once owned the place. Which is why I am arguing that claims on territory are meaningless from the grand perspective, because we know it is rather pointless to argue for it, because ultimately the original inhabitants have all been banished to rather cozy prisons, called the elemental planes.

[Jastall]

Azshara wasn't Horde territory, unless you are talking about game mechanic which doesn't have much to do with the lore. Azshara was formerly part of Zin-Ashari (Night Elven land) and was renamed such by, again, the NE after the Sundering. It's just that the NE considered that land cursed and left it unattended. That's why the NE attacked when the Horde / Goblin came there and started terraforming the land to their purposes. At the end of SoO, Tyrande said that she will allow the Horde to use Azshara's lumber for the sake of peace if they leave Ashenvale for good, but she never said they would give the Horde Azshara for free.

All in all, Azshara - since before SoO and after - was technically either NE territory or at worst, contested one. It was just marked as Horde territory in-game due to gameplay purposes.

There were barely any NEs there even in vanilla. At some point I'd say is Horde is excused with taking territory only inhabited by Naga and other assorted critters. And post SoO it is pretty much officially Horde territory as well in exchange for the Horde abandoning its holdings in Ashenvale, for all intents and purposes. If the Horde have an important city there, several minor holdings, and important resource gathering operations, it is Horde territory.

[Syegfryed]

Literally the first thing he did when he got to ogrimmar was threaten thrall , tried to take over the horde so they could go to war with the elves and take natural resources.

Character assassination my ass

Yall are fucking stupid

what the heck are you saying, he clearly act by impulse, when thrall appoint him as warchief he even refused

[tristannarutofan]

How the fuck it's elven territoty when there is no single elven settlement there? Just because Tyrande said so? What else is elven? Feralas? Stonetalon? Desolace? Yea, no.
And also - Azshara attacks come before Ashenvale

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It's more like "Let's free Lordaeron from the Horde!" When actual, although dead, people of Lordaeron tried to join Alliance and were rejected.

???the elves are the only ones that live on kalimor other than furbolg and tauren. Azshara is night elf territory (and furbolg) because they are the ppl who live there. Yall realize the real world isnt split up in zones. Felwood, moonglade, azshara, and duskwood are all one forest. Its night elf territory cus ...its night elf territory

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That is the thing though at one point one should abandon the old concept of land automatically belonging to anyone, it just doesn't really end. Especially since it would justify genocidal campaigns to drive out a great deal of people from all over the world. Humans for example would have 0 territory, so they would have to be entirely uprooted and most of them culled to sustain a population on a piece of land that hadn't been taken by someone at some point, this mindset is pandorras box. Not to mention it opens the door for the elementals to basically cleanse all life on the planet and return Azeroth to her primeordeal state.

regardless this isnt an issue of "we didnt know this belonged to you because no one has been here i hundreds of years"

this is

"after the violent meeting between orcs and elves in the 3rd war , the entire orc leadership learned that Ashenvale and the lands around it were Ka'dorei territory" and the Horde left it mostly untouched except for the minor logging opporation in ashenvale because of Thrall's attempts to keep the piece . and the moment that Garrosh became warchief he sent his military to invade ashenvale forest and support the Goblins taking over of Azshara despite knowing it wasnt theres to take"

This wasnt a simple misunderstanding Garrosh knew the entire forest between ogrimmar and teldrassil was furbolg and night elf territory and he's been spouting since the zombie invasion in burning crusade/wrath of the lich king that they should steal as much alliance lands as they want and kill as much alliance as gets in the way thats literally his whole sticht

"i didnt know this land belonged to anyone" isnt an excuse when you knew that land belonged to people for years.

[Combatbutler]

regardless this isnt an issue of "we didnt know this belonged to you because no one has been here i hundreds of years"

this is

"after the violent meeting between orcs and elves in the 3rd war , the entire orc leadership learned that Ashenvale and the lands around it were Ka'dorei territory" and the Horde left it mostly untouched except for the minor logging opporation in ashenvale because of Thrall's attempts to keep the piece . and the moment that Garrosh became warchief he sent his military to invade ashenvale forest and support the Goblins taking over of Azshara despite knowing it wasnt theres to take"

This wasnt a simple misunderstanding Garrosh knew the entire forest between ogrimmar and teldrassil was furbolg and night elf territory and he's been spouting since the zombie invasion in burning crusade/wrath of the lich king that they should steal as much alliance lands as they want and kill as much alliance as gets in the way thats literally his whole sticht

"i didnt know this land belonged to anyone" isnt an excuse when you knew that land belonged to people for years.

And frankly I don't give a damn if this land belonged to someone else for years, because it belonged to someone else for years prior and was then taken from them and before that there lived others on the land who lost that land as well etc. arguing for claims of land for the sake of it is rather silly in wow. Night elf land simply didn't always used to be night elf land in this example. In ages past the night elves conquered most of the land they now inhabit from primitives. I don't mind the factions grabbing each others land if they want it, this has been ongoing since the beginning of time after all. All that matters in the end if they are able to hold on to it or not.

[tristannarutofan]

what the heck are you saying, he clearly act by impulse, when thrall appoint him as warchief he even refused

??

"Literally the first thing he did when he got to ogrimmar was threaten thrall , tried to take over the horde so they could go to war with the elves and take natural resources."

thats what i'm saying obviously

At the end of burning crusade when the plague was cured Thrall took the time to celebrate their victory over the scourge and during that 30 minute scenario (in which , in stormwind Varian, Valeera and Brom helped protect stormwind harbor) Garrosh openly questions Thrall's leadership, ignoring what Thrall has preached about the Orcs settling in the harsh land of durotar as penance for their sins, said that he was a weak leader who "let' the orcs go hungry when there was an entire forest (elven territory) that they could just claim. When thrall told him he was wrong Garrosh challenged him to a Mak'gora for leadership of the Horde (or possibly just as a Mak'gora to shame thrall into changing his mind? Dont really remember ). Garrosh was winning the duel when the lich king's frostworms, necromancers and undead attacked. letting the Horde know that the Plague was just to soften up the mortals for the scourge invasion. I could be wrong on the specifics of the timing , not sure if the Scourge invasion event was before or after, but i think the 'defend the city' happened at the end.

Then as Wrath started Thrall understanding Garrosh's want to prove himself , gave him leadership of the Horde military sending Saurfang to be his advisor.
When garrosh came back as a war hero and The planet was in need, Thrall thought that (after Cairne and vol'jin said no" ) that This might be garrosh's chance to learn to be a good leader so long as he LISTENED to his advisors. And AFTER thrall left Garrosh started doing things like Invading ashenvale and accepting Cairne's challenge (because he had no idea what Cairne was talking about but he has a tiny ego and couldnt let a Noble, well loved leader question his authority, because Garrosh is a fascist and always has been )

thats what i'm talking about.

The entire northrend campaign is full of Saurfang and his cronies keeping Garrosh and his leadership from doing things like getting their troops killed(borean tundra) or executing their own soldiers for incompetence (Grizzly Hills) or backstabbing the alliance in Icecrown (icecrown)

I get it if yall werent there or dont remember But the only time Garrosh could possibly be mistaken for a good person was in Nagrand. Finally not hating himself from Day 1 in Wrath prepatch and onward he was a xenophobic fascist who ruled through fear, but because Orc culture would rather feel good via obliteraing a percieved enemy, than serving penance, they loved him and it continued to get worse for two hole expansions

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And frankly I don't give a damn if this land belonged to someone else for years, because it belonged to someone else for years prior and was then taken from them and before that there lived others on the land who lost that land as well etc. arguing for claims of land for the sake of it is rather silly in wow. Night elf land simply didn't always used to be night elf land in this example. In ages past the night elves conquered most of the land they now inhabit from primitives. I don't mind the factions grabbing each others land if they want it, this has been ongoing since the beginning of time after all. All that matters in the end if they are able to hold on to it or not.

sorry but if you cant see the difference between "this land belonged to us because we were there 10 thousand years ago" and "this land belongs to us because we are literally the only ones who live here and our society spans this entire continent and we've been here the entire time" then you are just admitting to yourself that you cant see reason.

Like why is it even an issue. The entire thing happened using Gazlowe a known slaver, and Garrosh a known fascist.

we really want to bend over backwards to try to paint the natives fighting back against invaders who are literally slave traders and orc nazis for some stupid faction pride b.s?

I swear to god the problem is people hold Alliance to real life standards and SOME members of the horde are so BLATANTLY evil people have fun 'pretending' to be them. That their blatant evil (of orc fascist, Forsaken genociders, and Goblin slavers) is ignored cus its just pretend, but if someone on the alliance is slightly prejudiced against people whove literally tried to kill and enslave them for the last 10 years they are the 'bad guy"

"Humans to forsaken: "we hate you because you are literally undead monsters and when you kill our soldiers you raise them into undeath to serve in your war machine to murder more of our people and enslave THEIR victims as well and you seem to ENJOY doing it"
Forsaken to humans:"yea well you hate us because we are undead"
Humans to forsaken:"yea..undead...who kill us and turn us into undead and eat us"
Forsaken: "Um excuse me dont you realize murdering and enslaving people is undead culture?"
Humans:"yes and thats why we hate you "
Forsaken:"wow i might literally lock people up in cages and torture them into they melt into a pile of goo do to the dozens of diseases i purposefully infected them with but AT LEAST I'M NOT A RACIST!!"

Slavery and genocide is ok if the enemy called you bad names

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but like , seriously now am i the only one who remembers that whole Scourge invasion thing? And garrosh literally challenging thrall to a duel because he thought he should just invade ashenvale?

Has no one here played when that happened?

[Combatbutler]

sorry but if you cant see the difference between "this land belonged to us because we were there 10 thousand years ago" and "this land belongs to us because we are literally the only ones who live here and our society spans this entire continent and we've been here the entire time" then you are just admitting to yourself that you cant see reason.

Like why is it even an issue. The entire thing happened using Gazlowe a known slaver, and Garrosh a known fascist.

we really want to bend over backwards to try to pain the natives fighting back against invaders who are literally slave traders and orc nazis for some stupid faction pride b.s?

I swear to god the problem is people hold Alliance to real life standards and SOME members of the horde are so BLATANTLY evil people have fun 'pretending' to be them. That their blatant evil (of orc fascist, Forsaken genociders, and Goblin slavers) is ignored cus its just pretend, but if someone on the alliance is slightly prejudiced against people whove literally tried to kill and enslave them for the last 10 years they are the 'bad guy"

Slavery and genocide is ok if the enemy called you bad names

Where have I ever said it isn't fine to fight back, this was actually the entire point I made, since my point is the pinnacle of neutrality, since it isn't tied to specific races or factions at all. Again settling on a land and holding it for generations and then expecting this land to remain in the hands or said race is simply asinine and people who make these claims do not have a leg to stand on, because pretty much all the land was conquered and stolen from someone else, even though they had inhabited those lands for millennia. You argue for a status in which it is impossible to claim new territories, yet at the same time want those who already took the land they sit on and keep it, ignoring how they obtained it in the past.

What I am saying faction doesn't matter, races do not matter all that matters is whoever is able to hold the land or not. Claims are good for a rallying cry but ultimately they are utterly meaningless. You focus this on the tiny fragment of Azeroths current history unnecessarily trying to tie it into the horde and Alliance conflict.

[Qualia]

There were barely any NEs there even in vanilla. At some point I'd say is Horde is excused with taking territory only inhabited by Naga and other assorted critters. And post SoO it is pretty much officially Horde territory as well in exchange for the Horde abandoning its holdings in Ashenvale, for all intents and purposes. If the Horde have an important city there, several minor holdings, and important resource gathering operations, it is Horde territory.

I was talking about when the Horde / Goblin only started landing there, though. It's Horde territory now by the rights of conquest, but it surely wasn't theirs when the Goblin arrived and started building a town over. LazarusLong was saying that the NE attacked the Goblin at Azshara, Horde territory in the matter of the clash in Ashenvale, implying that it was supposedly a bad action, so I pointed out that it wasn't Horde territory by then, it was (quoting myself) "technically either NE territory or at worst, contested one" and thus, wasn't really on the same level as Garrosh invading Ashenvale which was stated to be mostly NE territory in Chronicle.

[Syegfryed]

??

"Literally the first thing he did when he got to ogrimmar was threaten thrall , tried to take over the horde so they could go to war with the elves and take natural resources."

thats what i'm saying obviously

and im saying he just act by impulse, he was hot-headed, he was pissed of, didn't understand, then he regret what he did not a big deal, lul