Sakeesian's Bioware visit

[jackofwind]

"The right way to criticize video games is not to criticize video games."

Really informed attitude there.

It's no different than music or books. The right way to criticize them is after they come out and on their artistic merit.

What your suggesting reeks of what happened to Catcher in the Rye.

[Elegiac]

It's no different than music or books. The right way to criticize them is after they come out and on their artistic merit.

Games are more similar to film in terms of their development process, so; no. They are more than open to criticism in the development stage.

What your suggesting reeks of what happened to Catcher in the Rye.

Yes, asking game developers to be more cognizant of their products is totally the equivalent to banning books.

[Scrysis]

Is it though? I can only assume your talking across race so let’s go off that. We have female dwarfs who are stouter/fatter not really fitting into sexulized norms. We have female cows who are bulky and well cows. Female vykrel who are like 10 feet tall and buff female elementals like therezane female quillboars who look just like the men more or less. Warcraft has a ton of different body types for its women just like it has for its men they are really in no way all pretty and sexualized.

A lot of those you've mentioned are NPCs, not player characters. When it comes to Warcraft, Blizzard follows a fairly strict sexual dimorphism when it comes to player characters. Males are bigger and brawnier than females, and females have noticeable breasts. Period. When someone suggested that when making an allied Sethrak race that the females be larger to mirror actual snakes, a couple of the guys in the thread lost their shit.


Okay, ignore any mention of threats or harassment. Have you guys seen some of her videos analyzing how women are portrayed in video games? She goes through and shows specific scenes and analyzes how they're depicted and very frequently will show how men are depicted in similar situations. I mean, we used to do the same thing in my old literature classes for things like general themes and symbolism, but with books. I REALLY, really don't understand why so many guys are positively rabid when it comes to her. It positively confuses me.

Also, Witcher 3 was NOT made without external pressure. CD Projekt Red made the Witcher 3 AFTER they made Witcher 1 and Witcher 2. They had lots and lots of feedback to draw on.


I think Bioware is trying to do something that the rest of the games industry hasn't figured out yet, and if they get it right, they will have struck gold. Women consist of 50% of the population, and a lot of them are starting to get into gaming. But a lot of the gaming content is still strictly oriented more towards men. If they can figure out how to make their games friendlier towards women and still maintain the same number of guys, they'll be able to increase the number of buyers for their games. Bioware makes interesting RPGs. It's not a bad area to start for them.

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Ya I think the issue is we play different games, the only real sci-fi game I’ve played recently is warframe and the body’s there vary a fair bit. For fantasy the only games that come to mind at the moment are dragon age which Varies a fair bit with people like Cassandra or shale. And dinvity orginal sin 2 which I have the concept art book for and the woman vary as much as the men in that.

Yeah, Dragon Age has been getting better with their characters. I love Cassandra, and I loved Aveline from Dragon Age 2.

[jackofwind]

Games are more similar to film in terms of their development process, so; no. They are more than open to criticism in the development stage.

Yes, asking game developers to be more cognizant of their products is totally the equivalent to banning books.

Art is art and it shouldn't be censored.

I'm not saying to not critique it, I'm saying that producers of art shouldn't be forced by anyone to change their vision.

[Elegiac]

Art is art and it shouldn't be censored.

Good thing no one is advocating censorship, then.

I'm not saying to not critique it, I'm saying that producers of art shouldn't be forced by anyone to change their vision.

Nobody is being "forced", this is a ridiculous level of fearmongering.

[Deleted]

"I don't understand what an RPG is, halp."



I'd like to see evidence of this actually happening.



The Last Jedi made over $1 billion after two weeks after an $800 million break even mark. Stop lying.



Making $28.7 mil on an opening weekend in China is not 'tanking'. Moreover, you'll need to explain why this was a result of 'diverse casting' and not a function of the film being on the 'fine' side of okay.

The last Jedi under preformed by a large margin which is a big deal for a Star Wars movie and merchandise sales has been abysmal. The Solo movie will be a box office flop and so the downwards spiral will continue.

I don't have time to adress your points in any deeper way as i'm going to sleep but i'll get back to it tomorrow but the new star wars movies are so obviously a product of check-list producing. Gotta hit them diversity marks! And they suffered from it.

[Elegiac]

The last Jedi under preformed by a large margin which is a big deal for a Star Wars movie

'Kay. You might want to elaborate as to exactly how this is related to 'diversity'.

I don't have time to adress your points in any deeper way as i'm going to sleep but i'll get back to it tomorrow but the new star wars movies are so obviously a product of check-list producing. Gotta hit them diversity marks! And they suffered from it.

Which apparently has bearing on the movie being less good, something you've still done fuck all to demonstrate.

[jackofwind]

Good thing no one is advocating censorship, then.
Nobody is being "forced", this is a ridiculous level of fearmongering.

Meh, I'm not heavily invested in this whole thing so I'm not really interested in arguing the semantics of what exactly Sarkeesian is trying to do with her activism.

Personally I think her goal, other than to self-aggrandize, is to be seen as the one who "forced a change" in game development. But that's like, just my opinion man.

[Scrysis]

Art is art and it shouldn't be censored.

I'm not saying to not critique it, I'm saying that producers of art shouldn't be forced by anyone to change their vision.

Contrast that to all of the WoW players who insist that when the developers introduce certain elements of the story is ruining it. XD


Slightly more seriously though, this is a different matter. No one is forcing anyone at gun point to do anything. There is a different influence in play -- social pressures and money. In the wake of the Weinstein scandal and the MeToo movement, some women are getting to the point where they're sick of sexual harassment. Mainstream media and a lot of other portions of society feel that groping, suggestive comments, and rape without consent are bad. It's becoming less acceptable.

You also have money in play. No one has made a concentrated bid to go after the female section of the gaming market. A lot of people just automatically assume that "women aren't interested in games". Or "women just play farmville or facebook games". Or "women just play candy crush." None of which is true. Making a more robust game can really help make a more developed story, AND it can make a better profit.

[I Push Buttons]

Good thing no one is advocating censorship, then.

Because self-censorship due to fear of having your life ruined by the SJW mob is not censorship.

[Elegiac]

Because self-censorship due to fear of having your life ruined by the SJW mob is not censorship.

Free markets suck when they do things I don't like. Apparently.

[I Push Buttons]

Free markets suck when they do things I don't like. Apparently.

So the free market that allowed for hundreds of years of slavery, systemic oppression of women and minorities, that allowed for child labor (and still does in many countries), sweat shops, pollution, etc... Is all good?

Did you convert to the GOP when we weren't looking?

[Elegiac]

So the free market that allowed for hundreds of years of slavery, systemic oppression of women and minorities, that allowed for child labor (and still does in many countries), sweat shops, pollution, etc... Is all good?

No. I just don't take the absolutist stance that social pressures on art are a) avoidance and b) always a bad thing.

[Tabrotar]

Contrast that to all of the WoW players who insist that when the developers introduce certain elements of the story is ruining it. XD


Slightly more seriously though, this is a different matter. No one is forcing anyone at gun point to do anything. There is a different influence in play -- social pressures and money. In the wake of the Weinstein scandal and the MeToo movement, some women are getting to the point where they're sick of sexual harassment. Mainstream media and a lot of other portions of society feel that groping, suggestive comments, and rape without consent are bad. It's becoming less acceptable.

You also have money in play. No one has made a concentrated bid to go after the female section of the gaming market. A lot of people just automatically assume that "women aren't interested in games". Or "women just play farmville or facebook games". Or "women just play candy crush." None of which is true. Making a more robust game can really help make a more developed story, AND it can make a better profit.

Yeah ofc no woman ever will play game sbecause the MC is a male...

People like you´re the chancer that has overtaken the gaming indutrie and are trying to force their shitty belives on everyone.

[Sorrior]

It's something you notice more if you've been playing video games for a long time. I wasn't playing them in the 80's, but I can't help but notice how trends have shifted just in the last 15-20 years. It was like suddenly every team on a video game was 5 guys with giant muscles and one girl in a bikini.

Thaaat is definitely more bro gamer stuff rarely do i see that in the games i play

[Elegiac]

Yeah ofc no woman ever will play game sbecause the MC is a male...

If it doesn't make a difference, why does it matter if game companies are more diverse.

[Tabrotar]

If it doesn't make a difference, why does it matter if game companies are more diverse.

If it makes no difference why change it though? See how that works now?

[Elegiac]

If it makes no difference why change it though?

Because we don't believe it makes no difference, since media is highly formative in terms of worldview.

Whereas you are positing it makes no difference, meaning you are basically saying you don't care either way.

[Scrysis]

Yeah ofc no woman ever will play game sbecause the MC is a male...

People like you´re the chancer that has overtaken the gaming indutrie and are trying to force their shitty belives on everyone.

Flip that. Why is it wrong to make a main character female?

Or conversely, if you want to make a main character male, but have women play it, how do you go about it?

Playing as Geralt in the Witcher is very different than playing as Adam Jensen in Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, even when you take away all the genre stuff and game mechanics. You won't find out how they're different unless you ask.

There are a lot of male leads in games. No one is trying to make it so that games have exclusively female leads.

[Tabrotar]

Because we don't believe it makes no difference, since media is highly formative in terms of worldview.

Whereas you are positing it makes no difference, meaning you are basically saying you don't care either way.

Hm let´s see i´m saying that it´s indifferent what gender the Mc has and you´re trying to force your idea that it´s bad if the MC is male because no woman ever would be playing a game with a male MC...

Still don´t get what i´m saying?

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Flip that. Why is it wrong to make a main character female?

Or conversely, if you want to make a main character male, but have women play it, how do you go about it?

Playing as Geralt in the Witcher is very different than playing as Adam Jensen in Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, even when you take away all the genre stuff and game mechanics. You won't find out how they're different unless you ask.

There are a lot of male leads in games. No one is trying to make it so that games have exclusively female leads.

I would let a female gamer play the game and see if she likes it?

And please nobody says it´s bad to make female MCs but you on the othe rhand say it´s totally bad to make male MCs...