Master Looter

[Torrasque]

On the group... finder?

You do know that Master Loot can only be used in guild groups, right?

And you're an outright moron if you join a guild's run where they use ML and expect to be treated the same as guild members. Blizzard shouldn't babysit that kind of people, and the scenario is so incredibly specific that I really don't see how it's a good argument to bring more problems to all the people using ML legitimately.

Not a "guild's run" but a group's run. Those are far more common. You join groups through third party hosts to get higher levels of raiding done, especially if you're in multiple timezones. This is why you're seeing far more people in groups that use different languages in grouping, people using discord groups, and a variety of third party resource that are becoming more and more popular on the higher ends of raiding spectrums. Some thing that I'm pretty sure that your established guild group doesn't realize is growing in popularity because you don't associate with it.

That said, such practices have breached the mainstream for several years now, and it becoming more prevalent and is the primary reason why "communities" are becoming a thing in BFA, as this is the crowd that pushed for it. You can create and loadout high-end content quickly without the clutter and limitations of the in-game group finder. That said, it has a single flaw, and that is the option for master loot, which often becomes an issue for harassment and has grown to be a larger and larger case that was presented to the devs, and finally something good is being done about it. Suffice it to say, Blizzard is likely doing it because of "Communities." When you look at it, communities are a freer, wider encompassing, less restrictive form of a guild. However, with them, Master Looter would be a bane to communities much moreso than they already are to guilds. The restrictive nature of guilds actually protects the few players that still use guild-grouping as a primary means of organizing how they tackle content in the game. Blizzard is simply adapting to the archaic formula and planning ahead. Communities will likely replace the majority of functions that guild present in the long run. Nuking the biggest upset that threatens communities makes complete and total sense from a development standpoint.

- - - Updated - - -

Some organised guilds will indeed prefer master loot. However I've seen many guilds using master loot whether it was EPGP or loot council and it was just corrupted AF. It's the reason I don't raid in a guild for some time now. I hate master loot with passion yet I understand some top guilds complain about forced personal loot.

Master Looter is open to corruption, that much is certain. Almost everyone group or guild that I've seen break up, does so with relevance to a biased loot council. I've seen nothing good come from it and those that praise it tend to be the benefactors of those that have been victims of their own loot councils.

[Osiris]

I've been playing this game since Vanilla, and raiding throughout it. I truly may stop raiding if they outright remove master loot, and I'm not saying this to be dramatic, my justification is below.

I play the game for the people I get to play with. I've been running a raiding guild for over a decade, and the philiosphy with our group of players is "progression is the reward, loot is a means to progression". None of us truly care about the pixels on our character or how many epics / legendaries we have. Yeah it's fun to get gear and be really strong toward the end of a tier, but the goal for us is killing bosses together, overcoming a challenge.

We only raid two days a week, so time is precious, which means every loot decision during progress is also incredibly important. Master loot allows us to factor in things like:

-Players who are about to go on vacation for a few weeks.
-What is our next progression fight and where do we need to boost the raid (tanking survivability, damage, healing, ranged, melee etc.)
-Who has been putting in a ton of time to help the guild in other ways (recruitment, mythic+ etc.)

The list goes on, these are just a few examples. As a guild leader, and part of the loot council in our guild using master loot, we enjoy being able to place gear where it is going to help the raid the most, and reward players with things like the Mythic Argus mount or Gul'dan mounts that go above and behind to help out the guild. What's the point of taking that away and leaving it up to luck? What happens when Player XYZ who is about to take a break next month for finals gets the titanforged 980 BIS trinket half the raid needs and can't trade it effectively making it worthless. Guess we should have just not brought him to the raid. Guess we can stop bringing friend and family members to fill out our heroic clears as they might soak up loot our main raiders need, when they know and accept the fact that they are there for the extra stuff the raid doesn't need.

It won't stop split runs, it will just create "stacked" splits. There are already numerous guilds talking about how they would circumvent master loot going away to still do the insane split grind (that we don't even participate in) when a new raid opens up. The devs should stay out of this, the grind and poop-socking is created by the community themselves and won't ever go away until the player base decides it's not worth it.

If you want to make all personal loot tradable, regardless of ilvl, that's the only way I'd be OK with this system, because then as an organized guild we could still move gear around freely and continue to work toward the reward of progress as efficiently as possible.

Saying you don't like master loot because it's not "fair" or you had a bad experience is a terrible argument. That's like saying you don't like cars because there are drunks out there who kill people with them. Don't blame the tool, blame the idiot using the tool. There are many, many, happy, drama-free, master-loot enabled guilds out there. It's all about setting expectations with people.

[Deleted]

it's simpel. First of if an item drop and it is a massiv upgrade and BiS for 1 person, should he not get it over someone who get a 2% increase? Also some guilds uses DKP, or other system to Reward players for doing contional raids and not just show up and take a item from a raid member who been there all the time

[Jastall]

Not a "guild's run" but a group's run. Those are far more common. You join groups through third party hosts to get higher levels of raiding done, especially if you're in multiple timezones. This is why you're seeing far more people in groups that use different languages in grouping, people using discord groups, and a variety of third party resource that are becoming more and more popular on the higher ends of raiding spectrums. Some thing that I'm pretty sure that your established guild group doesn't realize is growing in popularity because you don't associate with it.

That said, such practices have breached the mainstream for several years now, and it becoming more prevalent and is the primary reason why "communities" are becoming a thing in BFA, as this is the crowd that pushed for it. You can create and loadout high-end content quickly without the clutter and limitations of the in-game group finder. That said, it has a single flaw, and that is the option for master loot, which often becomes an issue for harassment and has grown to be a larger and larger case that was presented to the devs, and finally something good is being done about it. Suffice it to say, Blizzard is likely doing it because of "Communities." When you look at it, communities are a freer, wider encompassing, less restrictive form of a guild. However, with them, Master Looter would be a bane to communities much moreso than they already are to guilds. The restrictive nature of guilds actually protects the few players that still use guild-grouping as a primary means of organizing how they tackle content in the game. Blizzard is simply adapting to the archaic formula and planning ahead. Communities will likely replace the majority of functions that guild present in the long run. Nuking the biggest upset that threatens communities makes complete and total sense from a development standpoint.

- - - Updated - - -



Master Looter is open to corruption, that much is certain. Almost everyone group or guild that I've seen break up, does so with relevance to a biased loot council. I've seen nothing good come from it and those that praise it tend to be the benefactors of those that have been victims of their own loot councils.

You don't seem to get it. You literally cannot turn on Master Loot unless 80% of the group is in the same guild. So if you can use ML in the first place you aren't in a normal pug, but in a guild run you latched on to. In which case don't expect to be treated like a guildie. It's the reason why we use PL when we carry people. In theory we could turn on ML but PL means there's no need to start shuffling the loot around and we just give whatever we don't need to carries.

So really I've no idea why you bring up communities since they won't even be able to use ML under the current rules anyway.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Method is like the only guild that requires 5+ characters per player. Banning that kind of behavior seems reasonable. Anything to make the playing field more fair. Maybe we'd see more new blood.

The issue with split raiding isnt how fast a raid is cleared, it's how unfair it is to new potential WF raiders.

You seem stuck on what's best for individual players. For successful mythic raiding guilds, it's all about what's best for the TEAM. It takes a certain mentality to raid in that world, and it's not for everyone. In the end, it's still only a game, and I'm sure top guilds will adapt to whatever system Blizz throws their way.

[agittunc]

Ok, some people bring up good points. some bad points, and there's the people that bring up RETARDED shit.

so, instead of replying to those idiots. imma just make my own post with my perspective :

1: Personal loot in Guilds.

I don't see how this is benefitting. sure it eliminates some bad stuff. but the negative side is your guilds "progression" is essentially being halved. The purpose of a guild is to kill a boss and having so that everyone sooner or later gets loot that THEY need. with personal loot that control is gone. you have 0 control of the loot and if a warrior would get a item that he already has ( ex: 700. but he already had 1 (ex:695) but his warrior guildmate needs 1. the usual warrior guildmate that has it twice now wouldnt mind giving the new one to his warrior guildmate (NOT EVERYONE BUT MOST GUILDIES). so you have this situation where you can go months without getting that piece you ACTUALLY need. 0 control. means bad time for some raiders (creating fatigue in the game and essentially quitting. so the opposite of the effect that was intended).


Conclusion : you 50% progression into gearing your raider members what they need is gone. bye bye for going to be in a guild for that reason.


2: Split runs.

i couldn't give less of a shit about it. it's been a thing since the burning crusade. guilds do split runs to get faster and more loot for a single character. i never had this problem surface before as an actual problem. so why is it a problem now? because legion required to be played even more for better artifact traits? isn't that what a game was supposed to be? that the more dedicated would be rewarded MORE?

how many times did we say : "it's too easy". and now people that have it rough go complain that it's too HARD and that people need to be spooned again? fuck off. honestly this is just hypocritical and you shouldnt play any game if this is how your mindset is.

People do split runs. they put time into it. and they want the rewards for those extra hours per day. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THAT? they wanna get the additional advantage. let them have it. it's a game. get over it.

conclusion : essentially people are crying over things they cant get because they don't want wanna put time into it. wasn't this a big reason that since WOTLK it became essentially worse because the content was getting too easy because that's what excactly what the crybabies asked for? and now that they stuck to their guns and made it harder for people to not BLAST through the content?

fuck yourself. learn to play a game and progress through it like an actual gamer. fuck the people want everything get spooned those things.


3: The reasoning about PL.

Personal loot is great for pugs. it allows for anti ninja and people can trade the loot that they wouldnt need if they had higher items and better ones anyway. this isn't good for guilds. (point 1).

conclusion : Keep it for the non guild stuff. but don't make it dictate guilds. IT SUCKS.




EDIT : just to prove these points. there are some youtubers that have pointed this out. (preach gaming, Asmongold and other youtubers).


Preach Gaming (The problem with the mists.) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo

Asmongold (Blizzard Knows Best: Forced Personal Loot in BFA, Even for Guilds) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3nWMlxf4lI

Before you start with : he / he are stupid and bad etc. remmember these are their OPINIONS. and there is no problem with voicing them. to you who say that. grow up.

[Torrasque]

I've been playing this game since Vanilla, and raiding throughout it. I truly may stop raiding if they outright remove master loot, and I'm not saying this to be dramatic, my justification is below.

I play the game for the people I get to play with. I've been running a raiding guild for over a decade, and the philiosphy with our group of players is "progression is the reward, loot is a means to progression". None of us truly care about the pixels on our character or how many epics / legendaries we have. Yeah it's fun to get gear and be really strong toward the end of a tier, but the goal for us is killing bosses together, overcoming a challenge.

We only raid two days a week, so time is precious, which means every loot decision during progress is also incredibly important. Master loot allows us to factor in things like:

-Players who are about to go on vacation for a few weeks.
-What is our next progression fight and where do we need to boost the raid (tanking survivability, damage, healing, ranged, melee etc.)
-Who has been putting in a ton of time to help the guild in other ways (recruitment, mythic+ etc.)

The list goes on, these are just a few examples. As a guild leader, and part of the loot council in our guild using master loot, we enjoy being able to place gear where it is going to help the raid the most, and reward players with things like the Mythic Argus mount or Gul'dan mounts that go above and behind to help out the guild. What's the point of taking that away and leaving it up to luck? What happens when Player XYZ who is about to take a break next month for finals gets the titanforged 980 BIS trinket half the raid needs and can't trade it effectively making it worthless. Guess we should have just not brought him to the raid. Guess we can stop bringing friend and family members to fill out our heroic clears as they might soak up loot our main raiders need, when they know and accept the fact that they are there for the extra stuff the raid doesn't need.

It won't stop split runs, it will just create "stacked" splits. There are already numerous guilds talking about how they would circumvent master loot going away to still do the insane split grind (that we don't even participate in) when a new raid opens up. The devs should stay out of this, the grind and poop-socking is created by the community themselves and won't ever go away until the player base decides it's not worth it.

If you want to make all personal loot tradable, regardless of ilvl, that's the only way I'd be OK with this system, because then as an organized guild we could still move gear around freely and continue to work toward the reward of progress.

The thing is, loot RNG is significantly less prominent than it is in Legion.

- Primary Stats are far more valuable now than Secondary Stats. This means that gear variety value is less varied.
- Titanforging is gone and warforging is unavailable for Head, Shoulders, Chest, and Weapons (and possibly trinkets, though that one is in the air, as far as I know). This means that ilvl variability is massively less varied than Legion, you're effectively going to get the ilvl of the instance that you're in, guaranteed now.
- All forms of proccing perks to your items are massively reduced, so even less variability.
- Tier gear and set bonuses are gone.
- Weapons no longer massively increase DPS, and now are about the same value as other pieces of gear.
- Lastly, progression through the Azerite gear looks to currently be theorized as tiered "play X time during the patch and you get access to your azerite slots." This means that outside of the gear itself dropping, progress on Azerite gear happens through more repeatable content like non-mythic+ dungeons, WQs, Islands, and PVP (BGs, Arena, and WPVP bonus rewards).

This means that you'll mostly still be able to to do what you already do since gear value is so much more stable and values roughly the same way for all classes and specs. If gear drops, it will be about as valuable as it is to everyone which won't be nearly as lucrative as it is now. This means that passing out loot is moot, in all honesty. Loot will hold much MUCH less value to your character than farming WQs will, in other words.

[HumbleDuck]

This ain't gonna help with split runs, if anything it makes them much more of a pain.
Meanwhile the other 99.99℅ who don't do split runs will face much more loot drama.

[agittunc]

The thing is, loot RNG is significantly less prominent than it is in Legion.

- Primary Stats are far more valuable now than Secondary Stats. This means that gear variety value is less varied.
- Titanforging is gone and warforging is unavailable for Head, Shoulders, Chest, and Weapons (and possibly trinkets, though that one is in the air, as far as I know). This means that ilvl variability is massively less varied than Legion, you're effectively going to get the ilvl of the instance that you're in, guaranteed now.
- All forms of proccing perks to your items are massively reduced, so even less variability.
- Tier gear and set bonuses are gone.
- Weapons no longer massively increase DPS, and now are about the same value as other pieces of gear.
- Lastly, progression through the Azerite gear looks to currently be theorized as tiered "play X time during the patch and you get access to you azerite slots." This means that outside of the gear itself dropping, progress on Azerite gear happens through more repeatable content like non-mythic+ dungeons, WQs, Islands, and PVP (BGs, Arena, and WPVP bonus rewards).

This means that you'll mostly still be able to to do what you already do since gear value is so much more stable and values roughly the same way for all classes and specs. If gear drops, it will be about as valuable as it is to everyone which won't be nearly as lucrative as it is now. This means that passing out loot is moot, in all honesty. Loot will hold much MUCH less value to your character than farming WQs will, in other words.

But once again it takes control out of the hands of a guild that wants to progress properly. why add RNG when you are trying to reduce it? and more importantly some players dont even get their desired items from PL anyway. Don't add stuff that you wanna remove in some way. it's counter productive.

[agittunc]

I didn't wanna post this AGAIN from another topic but i feel like this needs to be adressed by myself. if you don't care then ignore this topic and move on. this website is already very toxic with people not respecting eachothers opinions. so i'll post this again in the spirit of voicing the problems with Personal loot in a GUILDS ENVIRONMENT. why caps? because people dont seem to understand why you would be in a guild.

Disclaimer : i am not a high end raider by any means. i did raid high end for a short time.

here it is :

Ok, some people bring up good points. some bad points, and there's the people that bring up RETARDED shit.

so, instead of replying to those idiots. imma just make my own post with my perspective :

1: Personal loot in Guilds.

I don't see how this is benefitting. sure it eliminates some bad stuff. but the negative side is your guilds "progression" is essentially being halved. The purpose of a guild is to kill a boss and having so that everyone sooner or later gets loot that THEY need. with personal loot that control is gone. you have 0 control of the loot and if a warrior would get a item that he already has ( ex: 700. but he already had 1 (ex:695) but his warrior guildmate needs 1. the usual warrior guildmate that has it twice now wouldnt mind giving the new one to his warrior guildmate (NOT EVERYONE BUT MOST GUILDIES). so you have this situation where you can go months without getting that piece you ACTUALLY need. 0 control. means bad time for some raiders (creating fatigue in the game and essentially quitting. so the opposite of the effect that was intended).


Conclusion : your guilds 50% progression into gearing your raider members what they need is gone. bye bye for going to be in a guild for that reason.


2: Split runs.

i couldn't give less of a shit about it. it's been a thing since the burning crusade. guilds do split runs to get faster and more loot for a single character. i never had this problem surface before as an actual problem. so why is it a problem now? because legion required to be played even more for better artifact traits? isn't that what a game was supposed to be? that the more dedicated would be rewarded MORE?

how many times did we say : "it's too easy". and now people that have it rough go complain that it's too HARD and that people need to be spooned again? fuck off. honestly this is just hypocritical and you shouldnt play any game if this is how your mindset is.

People do split runs. they put time into it. and they want the rewards for those extra hours per day. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THAT? they wanna get the additional advantage. let them have it. it's a game. get over it.

conclusion : essentially people are crying over things they cant get because they don't want wanna put time into it. wasn't this a big reason that since WOTLK it became essentially worse because the content was getting too easy because that's what excactly what the crybabies asked for? and now that they stuck to their guns and made it harder for people to not BLAST through the content?

fuck yourself. learn to play a game and progress through it like an actual gamer. fuck the people want everything get spooned those things.


3: The reasoning about PL.

Personal loot is great for pugs. it allows for anti ninja and people can trade the loot that they wouldnt need if they had higher items and better ones anyway. this isn't good for guilds. (point 1).

conclusion : Keep it for the non guild stuff. but don't make it dictate guilds. IT SUCKS.




EDIT : just to prove these points. there are some youtubers that have pointed this out. (preach gaming, Asmongold and other youtubers).


Preach Gaming (The problem with the mists.) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo

Asmongold (Blizzard Knows Best: Forced Personal Loot in BFA, Even for Guilds) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3nWMlxf4lI

Before you start with : he / he are stupid and bad etc. remmember these are their OPINIONS. and there is no problem with voicing them. to you who say that. grow up.

[Torrasque]

You don't seem to get it. You literally cannot turn on Master Loot unless 80% of the group is in the same guild. So if you can use ML in the first place you aren't in a normal pug, but in a guild run you latched on to. In which case don't expect to be treated like a guildie. It's the reason why we use PL when we carry people. In theory we could turn on ML but PL means there's no need to start shuffling the loot around and we just give whatever we don't need to carries.

So really I've no idea why you bring up communities since they won't even be able to use ML under the current rules anyway.

That's only when you use the in-game group finder, as I've said several times. But, continue to not read my responses.

- - - Updated - - -

But once again it takes control out of the hands of a guild that wants to progress properly. why add RNG when you are trying to reduce it? and more importantly some players dont even get their desired items from PL anyway. Don't add stuff that you wanna remove in some way. it's counter productive.

How does it? Any piece of gear that drops has effectively no value in comparison to other gear in the instance. This means that "Oh, I need haste gear" won't happen in BfA because of how tanked secondary stats are. Also, this is mitigated by crafting gear, that will likely be raid viable on ilvl (it just that their implementation isn't clear yet, we just know that it's currently on the table). What this means is, if "Those legplate are major buff to me" is thrown out, that player can literally have something crafted, likely from items that may drop in raid, and have legplates crafted at the raid's ilvl which IS tradable (at least to our knowledge).

This completely dengates your argument on that matter, in other words. Trading gear, as gear, will make little sense in BFA.

[Deleted]

Because they're removing a choice that was preferred by 99% of proper raiding guilds for no logical reason, the only SEMBLANCE of an argument you can concoct is that they're trying to stop the 0.1% of the playerbase that do split runs for killing themselves and the sane players need to pay the price for it.

[agittunc]

Because they're removing a choice that was preferred by 99% of proper raiding guilds for no logical reason, the only SEMBLANCE of an argument you can concoct is that they're trying to stop the 0.1% of the playerbase that do split runs for killing themselves and the sane players need to pay the price for it.

this pretty much, only reasonable explanation that spawned this whole ordeal.

[Osiris]

How does it? Any piece of gear that drops has effectively no value in comparison to other gear in the instance. This means that "Oh, I need haste gear" won't happen in BfA because of how tanked secondary stats are. Also, this is mitigated by crafting gear, that will likely be raid viable on ilvl (it just that their implementation isn't clear yet, we just know that it's currently on the table). What this means is, if "Those legplate are major buff to me" is thrown out, that player can literally have something crafted, likely from items that may drop in raid, and have legplates crafted at the raid's ilvl which IS tradable (at least to our knowledge).

I think it's far to early in the alpha cycle to be saying definitively how valuable or not valuable gear or stats will be. We've seen far and wide sweeping changes up until a couple months before a release when it comes to balance and stats before.

Even regardless of that - who is it hurting to leave master loot in the game for guilds? Hell, even if you made it so it was 100% guild group required to enable Master Loot, unlike the 80% rule now. If you aren't happy with how your guild handles loot, or happy with any other aspect of your guild for that matter, that's the time to find a new guild, find like minded players, start your own guild and recruit the types of players you want to play with, etc.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

That's a player problem, not something that Blizzard should intervene in. If a guild is shit at distributing loot, it's more than likely shit period so the problem kind of solves itself.

And it's not like putting everything on personal will solve everything anyway. Corrupt loot councils will just demand that every player trades any item that they can to them instead so they can resume their greedy ways.

I don't disagree with that. PUGs might kick someone if he doesn't trade but said individual still get to keep the piece.

It's certainly making loot distribution more complicated for the reason you've stated, but we must not forget that ilevel upgrades cannot be traded. Corrupted council can't do anything if a piece of loot is bound.

[Jastall]

That's only when you use the in-game group finder, as I've said several times. But, continue to not read my responses.

How you form the group doesn't matter. If it's a raid, you cannot switch ML on unless 80% of the group is from the same guild. Blizzard can easily apply the exact same restriction to any group formed from these Communities of theirs.

They can change it so it requires a 100% full Guild group if they want to, idgaf. But the abuses of ML aren't anywhere close to common enough to justify this kind of change, and they themselves don't even justify it with corrupt loot councils but by split runs which is just as bad an argument. And if you get in any ML group where you don't trust the loot master(s) then I have little sympathy for you in the first place. Pugs that run PL are dime a dozen even for the early bosses of Mythic when the tier is old enough.

[agittunc]

That's only when you use the in-game group finder, as I've said several times. But, continue to not read my responses.

- - - Updated - - -



How does it? Any piece of gear that drops has effectively no value in comparison to other gear in the instance. This means that "Oh, I need haste gear" won't happen in BfA because of how tanked secondary stats are. Also, this is mitigated by crafting gear, that will likely be raid viable on ilvl (it just that their implementation isn't clear yet, we just know that it's currently on the table). What this means is, if "Those legplate are major buff to me" is thrown out, that player can literally have something crafted, likely from items that may drop in raid, and have legplates crafted at the raid's ilvl which IS tradable (at least to our knowledge).

This completely dengates your argument on that matter, in other words. Trading gear, as gear, will make little sense in BFA.

I don't think you understand my point. the point being is that when you raid in a heroic/mythic environment you want your raiders to get gear to be able to progress through it. regardless of the secondary stats some people needs that secondary stat in order to improve. why take that away for a guild? it's a guilds decision and their right to do so.

as a Guild Leader, Raid Leaders, officers they decide how they wanna do it. you don't like it? don't join. it's as simple as that. they organize the guild in how they want it to be. this should be how it is. not the other way around. i wouldn't give any loot to a trial that drags guildies down with him. why would i ? not only is it unfair to the players that are doing well. but even more unfair to the players that are SLACKING. getting that item and can leave whenever the fuck he wants to.

Master loot is a Tool that provides guilds with means to progress in their way. and yes that is fair because you decide to be a part of it. you stick to those rules.

bringing up crafted gear doesn't involve this. crafted gear is in my opinion a bad idea if it is used in a heroic+ raid environment. it's supposed to help you begin raiding. not be used in mythic. that's why the ilvl from that crafted gear was in ilvls of normal. (highmaul/Emerald nightmare. good examples). after that the crafted gear was out of the window.

In the burning crusade this was crazy obvious. you had warlocks that went through end content in Black temple with crafted gear from the first raid. because it was TOO good. eliminating the gear process you would actually want to have. this is like i said counter productive.

PS : not trying to be a dick mate. just my opinion

I think it's far to early in the alpha cycle to be saying definitively how valuable or not valuable gear or stats will be. We've seen far and wide sweeping changes up until a couple months before a release when it comes to balance and stats before.

Even regardless of that - who is it hurting to leave master loot in the game for guilds? Hell, even if you made it so it was 100% guild group required to enable Master Loot, unlike the 80% rule now. If you aren't happy with how your guild handles loot, or happy with any other aspect of your guild for that matter, that's the time to find a new guild, find like minded players, start your own guild and recruit the types of players you want to play with, etc.

+1 to the finding another guild things. excactly how it should be.

[Grimnakh]

Not everyone is going to contribute to the kill as much as others, particularly trials brought into a farm boss (but arguably even some "raiders" who can't perform up to standards and might be on their way out). Do you understand how trialing works? You don't deserve anything when being carried through content a guild has on farm while testing your capabilities, especially if you're trash and aren't going to make the cut. Or decide you don't want to be there, for whatever reason. Great, you come in to be tested, get gear the guild still needs, and peace. Awesome. Fuck that.

Trial people in heroic/mythic plus. This is a made up problem. If you cant tell someone is bad by then your leadership is as worthless as the trial. If you cant handle that the bad little trial might get a piece of loot youre also way too uptight for WoW, it makes no significant difference in the end.

This change will help guilds by making really uptight (selfish) people have to be fairer to applicants which is just going to lower the intimidation of people trying.

[Jastall]

I don't disagree with that. PUGs might kick someone if he doesn't trade but said individual still get to keep the piece.

It's certainly making loot distribution more complicated for the reason you've stated, but we must not forget that ilevel upgrades cannot be traded. Corrupted council can't do anything if a piece of loot is bound.

Sure you can't trade ilvl upgrades, but that's its own issue; if I have two ilvl 300 trinkets and I get a ilvl 310 trinket that's absolute crap for me but absolute BiS for a guildie, now I can't trade this important power boost to them so everyone's unhappy. Same with stuff like rings or the all-important weapon drops where pure ilvl doesn't rule the day sometimes.

And corrupted loot councils will stay corrupted and do shenanigans with the loot they can get their hands on. At best you lessen the problem a bit while creating many more problems elsewhere, as well as leaving players even more at the mercy of the RNG. The solution is to avoid bad loot councils and master looters, not make it unavailable altogether to those who use ML responsibly.

To be clear I was 100% in favor of Blizzard removing ML from pugs with the guild-only restriction. That made sense. This? It's bullcrap that helps close to nobody and will cause grief to many others.

[Revamp Man]

You're being delusional if you think removing ML will make it so random guilds can all of a sudden compete against Method. They aren't the best because of split runs. They're the best because they want to be and put the time into it.

shhhhh dont you know you dont need skill to get world first you just need to sit in front of a monitor

guilds already figured out a work around