The Last Jedi "Actual" Rotten Tomatoes Popcorn Score

[Endus]

1: Bollocks. If they knew where they were running, they would send a force to intercept. If they didn't, they'd scout ahead.
2.A Since one does the Empire in any incarnation care about the lives of their pilots or troopers, and
2.B the moment they spotted them leaving they should have at least attempted to catch them with fighters, or, in the instance the Resistance left people behind to man the guns, stay out of weapons range to make sure they have to stay close to the cruiser and cannot escape.
3: And since when don't you use any force available to you if you can?
4: Watch the first 5 minutes of the movie again. Watch Hux being stalled (and letting the entire assault being stalled) for minutes by Poe with the Old 'is this thing working?' trick and tell me again, with a straight face, that he's not depicted as the most incompetent character in Star Wars Movie history, including Jar Jar. He doesn't destroy anything. All he does is posturing. He doesn't make mistakes, his entire character is being a mistake. He's there so someone can fuck up.
5: Because you eliminate a variable. Even though they may have reports what is or isn't on Krait, it would stil be common sense to check. Same goes for simply cutting them off and destroying them in the first place.

1> They DID have a force intercepting them. The entire fleet behind them. They're just not rushing things.
2A> When there's no point in throwing them at an enemy who's badly wounded and bleeding out. Pursuit predation is a thing.
2B> Spotted WHO leaving? The transports? Why bother. Once they'd been informed, they could detect them and take them out with the cannons. Before they had, they wouldn't have noticed them.
3> When it's pointless and you're enjoying the chase because you're a sadist. Which the First Order were.
4> Really not a sign of incompetence, just being outwitted by Poe Dameron. And only briefly, at that.
5> You really don't get that the First Order are arrogant, do you? Of course arrogance is a bad quality. That's the point. These films aren't subtle.

And why weren't they actively looking for them? They knew the people on these ships were doomed, a logical conclisuion is that they'd try to escape with smaller ships.

To where?

Again, Crait was known to be a basically useless planet, with nothing on it. Even if the Resistance DID land there, they'd starve and die, since they'd lack communications and allies to rescue them, and had basically no supplies.

That 'huge distance away' should be somewhere inbetween 50 and 100 kilometers. It's relativly hard to tell, since we don't get a sideview shot of the chase to make comparisons. Even if it is 200 kilometers, it hardly makes a difference.
If there was no light how did we see the other ships? Or the planet, for that matter? There must have been a sun, in the first place. Second: The U-55 shuttle has rather bright engines, similar t othe falcon, even though it is smaller. The makeshift cloak used for it simpy reduced emmissions, not visibility of the ship itself. Its also not exactly tiny, being 22 metres long. The sublight engine is roughly 3 metres in diameter. If you tell me you cannot see that some hundred kilometers away, you're delusional. I don't know where you live, but I'd reccomend you look up at the sky at nighttimes. I live in Frankfurt, Germany, and even I can spot the occasional sattelite orbiting earth at... what hights are these things usually? And that's trhough atmosphere, haze and dust and with light pollution. Don't try to make up sterile scenarios to try to prove your point when you have no basis for it whatsoever, it makes you look desperate.

More desperate than the one who's ignoring the actual plot points of the film? Because you're still doing that.

Also, you can see satellites because of reflected light, again. And you have to be looking pretty hard, and they have to be moving relatively fast for you to pick them out from the stars.

Here's the actual shot of them being blown up;



The transports aren't bright, their engines aren't brightly lit, and they weren't flying directly away from the First Order, so their engines wouldn't be that visible either. What makes them most visible in that scene is the light from the exploding transport.

[McFuu]

They literally mention that they were cloaked. DJ revealing the plan prompted the First Order to step up sensor sweeps for such cloaking, which was the only reason they noticed the transports. This is explicitly detailed in the film.

This is like arguing that modern stealth bomber technology "doesn't work" because the bomber's still visible to the naked eye.

They are NOT hidden from sight. Just like stealth bombers work by minimizing their radar cross-section, it's still not a good idea to fly them in the middle of the damn day.

It's explicitly said in the film that they are hidden from sensors. That's it, nothing else. This whole they can't be seen non-sense needs to be put to rest. They aren't Klingon ships.

[Endus]

They are NOT hidden from sight. Just like stealth bombers work by minimizing their radar cross-section, it's still not a good idea to fly them in the middle of the damn day.

It's explicitly said in the film that they are hidden from sensors. That's it, nothing else. This whole they can't be seen non-sense needs to be put to rest. They aren't Klingon ships.

Right. See above. Again, the transports are dark and don't show any bright lights. You can spot them if you know what to look for, but they aren't big glowy beacons by any means.

I mean, the movie literally shows you this.

[hellhamster]

Wow, paid reviews by a multibillion dollar company to push its product, who would have thought?

[McFuu]

Right. See above. Again, the transports are dark and don't show any bright lights. You can spot them if you know what to look for, but they aren't big glowy beacons by any means.

I mean, the movie literally shows you this.

Ok great, so we are in agreement, the ships aren't cloaked, they are just hard to see due to distance and the fact the First Order wasn't expecting them.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

Again, you're completely glossing over the point where Holdo clearly states that the transports have stealth technology, or cloaking (can't recall exactly the wording, but it's irrelevant). They KNEW the First Order would not be able to spot them. That's why the betrayal by DJ matters; he lets the First Order know there are cloaked transports to scan for.

So no. This was a major plot point, and you're pretending it didn't happen. You're flat-out wrong.

Again: The First Order did fucking see them going to the planet even in their "stealth technology." Which -- wait for it -- isn't exactly fucking stealth if you can SCAN FOR IT.

And again, it wasn't like they were fucking invisible either. One dude at a window would clearly see them heading to the planet.

[Endus]

Again: The First Order did fucking see them going to the planet even in their "stealth technology." Which -- wait for it -- isn't exactly fucking stealth if you can SCAN FOR IT.

No, they detected them upon scanning for cloaked ships.

And again, it wasn't like they were fucking invisible either. One dude at a window would clearly see them heading to the planet.

You keep claiming this, without any evidence, and despite the film telling you otherwise.

- - - Updated - - -

Ok great, so we are in agreement, the ships aren't cloaked, they are just hard to see due to distance and the fact the First Order wasn't expecting them.

No, they specifically said they were cloaked.

[McFuu]

No, they detected them upon scanning for cloaked ships.



You keep claiming this, without any evidence, and despite the film telling you otherwise.

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No, they specifically said they were cloaked.

Then they misspoke or used the work incorrectly.
You have to cloak, in something. Otherwise if you are saying the ships are cloaked, it means they are wearing capes. Traditionally in sci-fi, cloaking devices would cloak the ship (in the device), ie: Make them invisible. That was never established. If they mean cloak as in conceal, then they have to say they are cloaking in darkness, or cloaking in the shadow of a larger ship.

What was established was there was a way to set a ships shields to confuse the First Order's sensors (iirc). There is no special device that did this, and there was only a certain amount of "hackers" in the universe that could do this anyway.

Bold: No, they showed the ships clearly visible from the First Orders position, with simple magnifying technology.

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You keep claiming this, without any evidence, and despite the film telling you otherwise.

30 seconds in, clearly visible...

[Endus]

Then they misspoke or used the work incorrectly.
You have to cloak, in something. Otherwise if you are saying the ships are cloaked, it means they are wearing capes. Traditionally in sci-fi, cloaking devices would cloak the ship (in the device), ie: Make them invisible. That was never established. If they mean cloak as in conceal, then they have to say they are cloaking in darkness, or cloaking in the shadow of a larger ship.

This is you making up "rules" that don't actually exist. You're simply wrong about this.

Bold: No, they showed the ships clearly visible from the First Orders position, with simple magnifying technology.

<snip>

30 seconds in, clearly visible...

That isn't a window. That's a display. There is no indication whatsoever that this is a raw feed.

Plus, I think you're forgetting exactly how big space is. We can't track all potential asteroids that might hit the Earth, even though they're often bigger than these transports, clearly being lit by the Sun, and so forth. We often miss incoming asteroids because they're not where we happen to be looking. Now, once someone tells you there's an asteroid in a certain area, you can typically spot it yourself, but that isn't the same thing as finding it in the first place.

[Gimlix]

Who cares. Star Wars lost their touch a few movies ago. Not even hyped anymore for any new movies.
And that comes from someone who has been a star wars fan for 10 years.

It's just a money milk franchise now.

[Machismo]

There's some pretty damn serious nerd shit going on right now.

[McFuu]

This is you making up "rules" that don't actually exist. You're simply wrong about this.



That isn't a window. That's a display. There is no indication whatsoever that this is a raw feed.

Plus, I think you're forgetting exactly how big space is. We can't track all potential asteroids that might hit the Earth, even though they're often bigger than these transports, clearly being lit by the Sun, and so forth. We often miss incoming asteroids because they're not where we happen to be looking. Now, once someone tells you there's an asteroid in a certain area, you can typically spot it yourself, but that isn't the same thing as finding it in the first place.

1.
dress in a cloak.
"she cloaked herself in black"
hide, cover, or disguise (something).
"the horror of war was cloaked in the trappings of chivalry"

You are literally looking at the scene where they show the clearly visible ships through a telescopic view and you are arguing.

At this point you are arguing to argue and you have been wrong the whole time, you are still wrong from the last time we had this conversation in the actual TLJ plot holes thread, and I'm assuming you will continue to delude yourself in your created fiction.

Good day.

[schwank05]

I never listen to other people's reviews, I love a lot of movies others hate and hate a lot of them others love.

[Elba]

Considering that tons of articles were released praising Holdo as feministic in how she handled Poe, it's certainly easy to assume.

I am not aware of such articles. I am still not sure how that would be virtue signalling.

[Endus]

You are literally looking at the scene where they show the clearly visible ships through a telescopic view and you are arguing.

How do you know it's just telescopic? At what point did they clearly explain the optics of that display panel?

At this point you are arguing to argue and you have been wrong the whole time, you are still wrong from the last time we had this conversation in the actual TLJ plot holes thread, and I'm assuming you will continue to delude yourself in your created fiction.

Good day.

I have no idea what you meant by linking that definition of "cloak", either. Since it doesn't support your case that the transports weren't cloaked.
Because they were.
They told us so, in the film.
If you bothered to pay attention.

[Elba]

You don't see why some would perceive a feminist agenda in a film that prominently features a heretofore unknown woman in command of the entire good guy army repeatedly rubbing a well-established male lead's nose in his failure, while refusing to include (or even notify) him with regards to plans he is materially involved with the execution of, despite his status as commander of a large branch of that army only minutes before, and the clear fact that the pilots (and some crew) have far more loyalty to him than her?

If the genders were reversed, and it was a hot-head female fighter pilot who got a bunch of people killed by not following orders, and she was told to sit down, shut up, and do as she was told by a male admiral, you don't think there would have been feminist outrage?

I personally think the whole thing is ridiculous - my issue with Holdo is that a good leader knows how to maximize the effectiveness of the people they lead, and she repeatedly shuts Poe out of the process for no apparent reason other than to assert her dominance, resulting in a coup attempt, rogue actions by several team members, and ultimately the failure of their plan due to the betrayal of the codebreaker. I have no problem with strong women in leadership roles - see my above post where I recommended that Ackbar be the one to go down with the ship and Holdo continue to lead the Resistance in the next film.

No I do not perceive a feminist agenda. Dunno what you think feminism is.

[korijenkins]

TLJ's biggest offense in my mind is that it tries to be feminist, fails spectacularly at it, and then cries sexism for people who don't like the attempt. It's all one hilarious joke. Of course, there are tons of plot threads that make no sense, but you've come to expect that in a Star Wars movie. The series was never that good.
This isn't true in the slightest. Almost everyone I know irl hates this movie. It's funny how defenders want detractors to be in a minority so badly.

Uh oh, it had a female character in it. Automatic. Feminist. Trash.

[Wyrt]

I fail to see how a whiney impatient character who constantly is saved by the others in the film can be considered a Mary Sue. His best skill was in being a decent enough pilot to not accidentally kill himself.

With basically no training at all he used the force to blow up the Death Star while dozens of veteran fighter pilots died.

[Antiganon]

I'm fairly sure Poe was in charge of the bomber wing specifically, not all the starfighters.

At worst, he was the squadron leader of the fighters, and commanding officer of the bombers. He was issuing orders to other fighter pilots as well, they obeyed him, and those who took part in his coup attempt included the few remaining fighter pilots.

Those are out of date. Here's Poe's rank badge; https://static0.cbrimages.com/wp-con...sistance-1.jpg
And here's the Resistance rank system;
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Resistance_rank_badge

You can clearly see that Poe's badge is for a Commander, and Captain is two steps down. One step above Lieutenant, which is the entry rank for an officer. And we know Leia dropped him to Captain.

There is no "wing commander" rank in there, and Poe's clearly not ranked as a Colonel (which your list would suggest). So I take "wing commander" as descriptive; he has command of a wing of starfighters. He was still, in rank terms, a Commander.

Thanks for the new ranks. I didn't realize it was a double demotion, that makes it even more severe.

No response to any of the other points I raised?

Mind you, please be aware that my gripe is with Holdo being propped up as an awesome leader and making poor leadership decisions, not with the fact that she is a woman.

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No I do not perceive a feminist agenda. Dunno what you think feminism is.

I didn't say you, specifically.

I said "some could perceive a feminist agenda".

Mostly just people who want to claim there is a feminist agenda so they can hate the movie because of it.

[Daffan]

I don't need review score to tell me this movie sucked.

TFA and TLJ are the only Star Wars movies I have no interest in re-watching. I even enjoy the prequels a lot more, even if there is stupid Jar Jar.