Should Blizzard cater to community perception, even if it is wrong?

[glorygores]

They are actively trying trying to kill high end organized raiding. They are making design decisions that make it harder for guilds to optimize at the high end, make it easier for players to jump in and out of the game on a month to month basis without consequence and it allows them to put less resources into properly balancing raids. This decision is just another decision based purely on money.

you've gotta be hurting from how much bullshit you just pulled out of your ass there. god bless, see a doctor.

[HuxNeva]

Yes, think about the resources that go into mythic balance compared to the amount of the playerbase who it is designed for. I'm personally shocked they have gone as long as they have with mythic raiding as it is. Blizzard is a business, that has really come to light more and more over the years, you are seeing more and more decisions that are designed to save/make more money, this is just another one of those decisions.

Except that in 'modern' wow, the tuning is err on the high side, and adjust/adapt post release if needed. Furthermore, the continuous gradual nerf systems (AP/AK and WF/TF) makes the downstream tuning process far more malleable than before.

[Talon8669]

(Hats of to a WoW vlogger for bringing this up yesterday, not going to name names or link to avoid another round of 'I don't care what ... thinks' as it is irrelevant to the discussion anyways)

So this came up:
is Blizzard forcing personal loot in raids, just to appease the perception by a part of the community that master loot is a tool used by guilds to screw over raiders?

Now in guilds I have been in Master Loot with a loot council was always used correctly to optimize for increased future success of the raid-group. This goes beyond raw numerics of simmed upgrade potential but addresses weak-points (do we have a dps or peak healing problem etc. etc.) and also takes into account likely attendance and even soft issues like this guy hasn't had a singe upgrade in 4 weeks. So my perception of Master Loot is that it it good in organized raiding (when there are pugs, we always used PL).

Ion otoh explains that they make the switch to forced PL even for organized raiding in guilds because of signals that it is (often?) abused.

Now I'm not saying right or wrong. It isn"t my experience, but perhaps I'm the (lucky) exception.

What I do find interesting though is: should systems be changed based on false believes by the community? Should classes be nerfed because a small vocal part of the community believes they are OP even if data contradicts it? Should Titanforging be nerfed because a small vocal part of the community caan't wrap their head around probability and believes LFR players are running around in full 980's even when the data contradicts it?

I can see both sides. Objectively it is wrong, and so logically you shoudn't cater to wrong believes except through education. Subjectively, if that is how players realy feel, then does perception trounce reality and should you submit to it?

What do you think?

I don't believe they are catering at all. I think they are really just trying to elimate split raids to extend raid teir life spans to a degree with those that do split raids but also trying to simplify their own systems. Removing master loot means the only loot system left is personal loot. Would be nice if they would just say hey, we don't want to support this system so its gone.

[Jujudrood]

I would venture a guess that they analyzed the sheer number of 'raid loot' issues reported to GMs and came to the conclusion that most of it was associated with loot drama.
The drama, of course, being that Person A did X when Reporter felt they should have done Y, or some other shenanigans.
I, too, have had some decently good luck with guilds and running ML with the assistance of various methods (EPGP, SKS, etc), however I have heard tons of horror stories from friends and guildies both current and past about ML being abused and tickets for this that and the other, so I'm sure this played a part in it to some degree.

Other than that, the switch to PL wasn't to accommodate the casual playerbase nor was it to punish guild runs, it was most likely a measured step in trying to put an end to these types of tickets.
Now, it will be "Person A got item and I didn't" to which a canned response of "Personal Loot is a chance.... blahblahblah" and done.
No investigation, no human hours spent, just a robot spewing back how PL works, which results in saved time, less human resources needed for these gripes, so on and so forth.
Time is money, friend.

Side Note:
As for the guild issue, this will basically "force" (for lack of better term) guilds to run M+ early on in a given "tier" to hopefully get items for different slots that are of equal or greater ilvl value than that of raid drops so they can then trade their PL freely (I believe this restriction will still be in place).
It's a nuisance for some, to be sure, but there are ways that organized groups can still "pool" together loot and dish it out as necessary for progression.
Given that PL is supposed to, on average, reward more gear than ML, it may turn out to be a blessing for gearing groups quicker, once everyone hits thresholds to allow free trade anyway.

[Softbottom]

The change is pretty simple - They want to kill split raiding and don't want anymore loot tickets of people complaining about this or that regarding loot. Making masterloot disappear fixes both of these problems.

[Lilija]

The simple answer is "Learn what makes people play your game and decide what your game is gonna be". Basically when you make ANY product what your demografic will be and then act accordingly.

Blizzard knows what's their demographic: tons of very different people with different goals and tastes and opinion varying thru whole spectrum of possible opinions There is no one thing all WoW players like, want, think or need. We are a mix of people who like different things within the same game.

At this point for me it's become quite clear that "Organized Guild Raiding" that WAS as a matter of fact one of the driving force that made WoW great is not only anymore what it was but it's simply not wanted by blizz.

That is not true. As Ion once said, WoW community doesn't have any majority. WoW community is a mix of minorities and they are all important to the game dynamic. This has become quite a complex ecosystem.

From were i stand i WIll stop IMMEDIATLY to bitch about anithing if they admit this and just flat out remove organized guild raiding from the game. The story of guild raiding was a slow and painfull descent to hell trought the last 10 years (I'm not talking about the quality of the raids).

Are you sure you are not mixing your personal experience with how the game is as a whole? Because funny enough I find raiding becoming more and more enjoyable with each expansion (Cata was the exception due to 10 vs 25 man issue)

Just kill it if you want to kill it and stop pretending that you care.

Why would they want to kill it? And tbh in order to kill it they would have to remove raids. Playing a multiplayer game is always better with people you know both in efficiency and the quality time you are spending with your mates.

They should just come out with honesty and say "Raid developement cost too much and we dont make too much money out of it so we are done with it" I would respect the hell out of blizz if they did.

Yet somehow they keep developing those raids... strange way of showing you want to kill something

- - - Updated - - -

No they should not. People commenting on forums have a different personality then those who would never waste time on forums. It is clear that we have different way of thinking and that people on forums are a minority of the players. Thus, listening to forums would pretty much be the same as listening to a minority.
For example look at forced personal loot. If you spend 10sec thinking about it, it is clear that the big majority of the players will love that change. But most forums are blasting this idea.
Beside, when you look at most of the problems the game has and when you read the forums, it is kind of obvious that these problems came from designers listening to dumb suggestions from forums.

It's not that it's the minority that comments on forums but rather that people generally don't comment on forums when they like something. If they do they keep enjoying it. Therefor, the forum comments will be negative in vast majority because it's mainly the dissatisfied people who will take time an effort to comment.

<<< And then there are the rare snowflakes that just like commenting for the sake of commenting

[Nerovar]

There's no "right" or "wrong" in the context of game design. If something is perceived as fun by the majority of the population then why would you assume that they're wrong in liking it? Aren't games about fun?
Sadly they don't have any indication on whether players enjoy certain things except participation (which is hard when it comes to things like GCD and master loot) and of course the forums.

Here's a fun story about Blizzard decision making:
During WoD they introduced random loot in PvP for the first time through Ashran and RBG lootboxes which granted you 2 bonus items (if you were lucky) every week and also had items that weren't obtainable through the conquest system (I believe it was trinkets which were best in slot for many specs). This small introduction of randomized loot (I say small because it didn't break gearing unless you really wanted that trinket) caused enormous outrage in the PvP community and for good reason. People didn't perceive it as fun to lose an established and reliable system that they enjoyed throughout several expansions. What did they do in Legion as a response to this? They've turned every piece of PvP loot into a multi-layered RNG drop. Needless to say the PvP participation dropped drastically (even though there's more reasons to that).

It seems that in BfA there's some backpedaling when it comes gearing (they're basically returning to a WoD like system (which was perfect in my opinion) with conquest, catch-up etc.) but it took them an entire expansion to realise that they're wrong when their community had already told them during WoD...
The point that I'm trying to make is: Yes, they have data. Yes, it's their job... But that doesn't mean that they're some kind of magical authority on the subject. They're prone to errors and they should use the extensive feedback they receive (even though some/most of it is shit) because most of the time it's all the input they get from the players.

[ramayana1423]

you've gotta be hurting from how much bullshit you just pulled out of your ass there. god bless, see a doctor.

Another person with a completely worthless response. Congrats on showing that since you can't even come up with a single rebuttal you simply go with the LOL UR DUMB argument.

[Polarthief]

It's not truth, and my response was not "NO UR DUMB". I called your statements dumb, not you as a person.

You're literally spouting the same inane shit that people have been spouting in place of actually intelligent arguments about every little change to this game for as long as I can remember.

Here's a more critical answer: "Killing master loot does nothing but kill guild choice. Rather than choosing a style of loot that works for your guild/raid team, or even as a raider searching for a guild, you now know that every single guild in the known universe will be using the same loot system, whether it works better or worse for the guild or its raiders".

That's also an irrefutable fact that this is the killing of player/guild choice. Whether you're for or against Personal Loot, it's an undeniable fact that now there's only one loot system instead of the four we have today (Group, DKP and its variants, Loot Council, and Personal). Is that good or bad for the game? Well that's subjective, usually based on your level of skill and time commitment, but again, you cannot argue that this is anything but a killing of choice.

As for the topic at hand, I'd say it greatly determines, but Blizzard's worst problem in regards to feedback is claiming the "vocal minority on the forums", which is why I've asked that, if they truly do give a fuck regarding feedback, they'd put surveys in-game to ask players about their feelings on things. If it's to a specific class, then maybe offer the survey to everyone of that class the next time they log in (and if you decline, you just don't get a voice, and you'll be "silent", but you're being directly offered the chance to voice your concerns. As a result, you'd actually be given a significantly bigger "vocal minority", maybe even possibly being the vocal majority.

But, as they've proven time and time again, Blizzard really doesn't listen to feedback. The GCD change for example is extremely reviled by those with a voice, and for those who don't have one, they usually just don't give a shit. I've never in the history of this game (and I've played since Vanilla) seen the community come together so strongly on a single issue. I'm talking like 80%+ of people I see are against the GCD change, ~19.9% don't give a shit, and the remaining .1% either saying they're for it or lying/trolling saying that it's a good thing.

Finally, in regards to feedback (if they actually gave a shit), it's hard to measure what's "wrong" when the community is split. It could be "wrong" for hardcore players (such as the forced Personal Loot in organized groups and raids), or it could be "wrong" for casual players (such as forced rep requirements to get Allied Races), but rarely is an issue just flat out wrong and people are supporting it (GCD change is "wrong" for everyone and the amount of supporters for the change are extreme outliers/miniscule at best).

[RoKPaNda]

Our HC guild used ML. No complaints. In fact I've seen more drama from PL ('why don't you trade me that piece, it's just a minor upgrade for you and it's my BiS!!!) than from a decent loot council. Now I'm sure there are bad and corrupt loot councils out there, but is the solution then to abolish ML? won't they just pile on the poor sods that stay in those cesspool guilds and 'force' them to trade?

fwiw I think the impact of the forced PL on raiding is wildly overstated. Encounter difficulty and speed of progress that can be made through gearing is all relative. Interesting question is does PL vs ML increase or decrease variance? The answer is not that straightforward.

And btw, I think Mike vastly underestimes the number of people taking part in organized raiding. The Mythic community might be small, but N/HC is huge.

Calling him Mike is super creepy.

Yes in pugs loot will always be problematic. Why would personal loot be problematic in a Heroic guild? I mean it's a pug raid difficulty, you're not doing any kind of progression, you can faceroll it with the bare minimum effort in gear from the previous tier, so you don't need to funnel loot or anything, why would you be using master loot and a loot council for heroic? Zero reason to. The ONLY place that Master Loot has any place is in Mythic.

[Nathreim]

How do you determine whether it is wrong?

Most of the people who seem to like this change have no raid achievements outside LFR and dont know ML can only work in a group that is 90% guild.

[Lilija]

There's no "right" or "wrong" in the context of game design. If something is perceived as fun by the majority of the population then why would you assume that they're wrong in liking it? Aren't games about fun?
Sadly they don't have any indication on whether players enjoy certain things except participation (which is hard when it comes to things like GCD and master loot) and of course the forums.

Here's a fun story about Blizzard decision making:
During WoD they introduced random loot in PvP for the first time through Ashran and RBG lootboxes which granted you 2 bonus items (if you were lucky) every week and also had items that weren't obtainable through the conquest system (I believe it was trinkets which were best in slot for many specs). This small introduction of randomized loot (I say small because it didn't break gearing unless you really wanted that trinket) caused enormous outrage in the PvP community and for good reason. People didn't perceive it as fun to lose an established and reliable system that they enjoyed throughout several expansions. What did they do in Legion as a response to this? They've turned every piece of PvP loot into a multi-layered RNG drop. Needless to say the PvP participation dropped drastically (even though there's more reasons to that).

It seems that in BfA there's some backpedaling when it comes gearing (they're basically returning to a WoD like system (which was perfect in my opinion) with conquest, catch-up etc.) but it took them an entire expansion to realise that they're wrong when their community had already told them during WoD...
The point that I'm trying to make is: Yes, they have data. Yes, it's their job... But that doesn't mean that they're some kind of magical authority on the subject. They're prone to errors and they should use the extensive feedback they receive (even though some/most of it is shit).

I think it's pretty obvious game development is a bit of trial and error game. I mean no one knows what people really want. I would say that the majority of mankind don't know themselves what they want until they go into it and find it pleasant or unpleasant.

[Azerate]

It changes on case by case basis. They should definitely consider the feedback thoroughly, it shouldn't be a "majority thing" but rather the power of the argument should matter.

[HuxNeva]

Calling him Mike is super creepy.

Yes in pugs loot will always be problematic. Why would personal loot be problematic in a Heroic guild? I mean it's a pug raid difficulty, you're not doing any kind of progression, you can faceroll it with the bare minimum effort in gear from the previous tier, so you don't need to funnel loot or anything, why would you be using master loot and a loot council for heroic? Zero reason to. The ONLY place that Master Loot has any place is in Mythic.

There are tons of HC guilds out there. there are even N guild. For them their progress can be just as serious as M for you.

[Deleted]

Most of the people who seem to like this change have no raid achievements outside LFR and dont know ML can only work in a group that is 90% guild.

I don't see problems if you can still trade items in your group.

[Lilija]

Another person with a completely worthless response. Congrats on showing that since you can't even come up with a single rebuttal you simply go with the LOL UR DUMB argument.

Well, your comment was pretty dumb. And in before you start whining I did reply with my arguments on why it was dumb. My advise, just own it and move on. Because now you are only getting deeper into insanity.

[Nerovar]

I think it's pretty obvious game development is a bit of trial and error game. I mean no one knows what people really want. I would say that the majority of mankind don't know themselves what they want until they go into it and find it pleasant or unpleasant.

Look. They have two choices:
1) Listen to the feedback you got on the matter, knowing that it will please at least a certain percentage of the people.
2) Assume that the only people who give you feedback are automatically in a minority (because only a minority of players uses the forums) and therefor everyone else has to either like this change or not care about it.
Also note that we're talking about making a change to a system that is already functioning (and which wasn't complained about on the forums) and making changes is always a risk. Or in other words: Never change a winning team.
Also if you go for 2) you can basically just scrap the concept of forums entirely because they'll always be used by a minority.

[RoKPaNda]

There are tons of HC guilds out there. there are even N guild. For them their progress can be just as serious as M for you.

Yes I'm aware that Heroic and even normal guilds exist, but no they're not serious, they don't take progression seriously, or else they wouldn't be normal/heroic guilds. Why would they EVER use master loot?

[Lilija]

Here's a more critical answer: "Killing master loot does nothing but kill guild choice. Rather than choosing a style of loot that works for your guild/raid team, or even as a raider searching for a guild, you now know that every single guild in the known universe will be using the same loot system, whether it works better or worse for the guild or its raiders".

That's also an irrefutable fact that this is the killing of player/guild choice. Whether you're for or against Personal Loot, it's an undeniable fact that now there's only one loot system instead of the four we have today (Group, DKP and its variants, Loot Council, and Personal). Is that good or bad for the game? Well that's subjective, usually based on your level of skill and time commitment, but again, you cannot argue that this is anything but a killing of choice.

Shouldn't choosing a guild be about people you would like to play with at a level that suits you the most? At least that is what I have observed during my long time experience in WoW. I wouldn't say loot system should have ever been a deciding factor in choosing a guild if you want to avoid a disaster.

But, as they've proven time and time again, Blizzard really doesn't listen to feedback. The GCD change for example is extremely reviled by those with a voice, and for those who don't have one, they usually just don't give a shit. I've never in the history of this game (and I've played since Vanilla) seen the community come together so strongly on a single issue. I'm talking like 80%+ of people I see are against the GCD change, ~19.9% don't give a shit, and the remaining .1% either saying they're for it or lying/trolling saying that it's a good thing.

Well, I think the GCD is in the same stage legendaries were at the beginning of Legion (it wasn't before as we didn't really understand how it will work until we've seen it so there was no outrage). I still remember how Ion couldn't believe why we are not excited about the legendary system. But they eventually gave in. So they are in their stubborn phase right now when it comes to GCD. When this goes live and be as shit as many people suspect they will give in. The same happened when they decided to turn off PL in random 5 mans but that was more of a surprise as they didn't realize how fast people started liking PL in pug world. Also back then they addressed another issue with a wrong fix.

With ML is much more complex because the community is pretty split (and I wouldn't agree it's purely Mythic vs Rest of the World ... tbh we don't know where the split line is)

[h4rr0d]

Assuming that it's true that "many" people complaining about this issue aren't in a raiding guild, why does their opinion hold no value? The people who aren't in an organised raiding guild have to rely on PUGs even more and that's where Master Loot abuse is most likely to happen.

Afaik you can't set ML if it isn't guild group (90% of raid from one guild) right now on live.