ML changes kinda expose the problem with the WoW Forum community

[Nubulous]

very mature i must say.
i said you should not have a vote to remove ML - ofc you can still have your vote that pl is better than ml.

if you never used ml in the first place why would you care that it is there? it doesnt effect you at all so what would be your reason?

why would people want somethign removed that they never used and that doesnt effect them its just pointless.

Because they want to stick it to "the man"...the mythic raider that they could obviously be they just arent a "no lifer" (even though I only raid 8 hours a week and am 11/11M)

[Deleted]

The problem i am seeing is that the people against it are actually raiders(like myself) and the people who are for it either do not raid or did very low level raiding where people used personal loot anyways.

The later unfortunately are the vocal majority and of course have no real idea of how the raiding system works in this game and its clear by how they view loot. When LC determines loot its usually to who needs it the most, favoritism doesn't really work in progression raiding because you need everyone to perform at a good level to help clear the encounters so loot always goes to the biggest upgrade for the most part.

As for the situation it does not, thats usually trials. As far as Trials go and this is another situation where people who do not actually do any real raiding would know. trial periods for the vast majority of raiding guilds is 2 weeks and during those 2 weeks you are still likely to get some loot just not the ones in hyper demand like the highest TF ones. After those two weeks you are absolutely showered in loot more then anyone else because they are trying to bring you to everyone else's level.

If you are going to be against ML at the very least know how it works and it is used. There is no benefit to hogging loot in progression raiding.

Well I've raided my fair share and let me tell you I am kinda glad ML is going.
Mostly because of split raiding. How fun is it to run 15 HC runs and then 3 mythic runs every weeks just so your tanks could get some rubbish trinket.

[Fudal]

The only way to fix the PL system where it doesn't screw everyone over completely is to fully implement the gearing strategy that Blizz has been slow pushing anyway. Blizzard developers are notoriously bad at knowing what stats a class needs to play optimally, that has been obvious for years, just look at the stats on some of the class hall sets. They have slowly been trying to force everyone to think that ilvl upgrade means gear upgrade. The answer is simple, go full fledged Diablo style gearing, no stats only ilvl and bonus abilities. Then if you get a piece of gear that is an ilvl upgrade you might be stuck with it, but at least it will be beneficial.

If they aren't going to do that then removing ML is just screwing over progression guilds.

[lappee]

Fucking over 'serious' guilds with this is a risk that is even closer to 0. And what the hell is a 'serious' guild? Top 10? Top 100? Any guild that kills a mythic boss? Not only 'serious' guilds use ml, ignoring potential problems of your other customers is not a way to develop a game or run a business, especially when there is significantly more than 2500 affected in the other group. And not even everyone in the top whatever number is against this change. Some are welcoming the death of split runs. Some just don't care about such a minimal issue.

Fucking over serious guilds is as high chance as ML fucking over normal guilds. If a Guild Leader blatantly abuses ML to their own gain, rather than for the best of the guild, then you really should leave the guild among other raiders. The same abuse will stay with PL
The thing is, those who feel ML is being abused are usually the ones that are on Trial, who think they're good or worthy of loot they're really not. If ML was actually abused the rest of the guild wouldn't agree with it. It is that simple, its how economy works.

As for split runs forced PL will not be the death of split runs, it will only change how they're being conducted. The bigger change is that the guilds are no longer in need of casuals to fill the raids which will speed up those runs and in turn you're probably running even more runs since you have the time.
Blizzard knows this, they specifically said that it won't kill the runs.

[Great Destiny Man]

How else is Blizzard to gauge the playerbase’s enjoyment with a system if they don’t look at the feedback of the people willing to talk about it though? It’s not like guilds use in-game tools to keep track of this stuff; guild communication is done over Skype, discord, vent, etc, and if arguments crop up that’s probably where they take place. Oociously you can’t have devs sitting in every single guild’s loot council discussion, so how else are they going to get a feel for where the game as a whole stands on this topic if not by looking at the forums and reddit?

The devs have access to a lot more metrics than I’m sure any of us are aware of. If they’re making a change like this they probably have a good reason.

The focus is on you here. You cannot prove the "grand majority" of players have an issue with it. Oh course Blizzard has better metrics to gauge this, but they also haven't made any claim of "this change is happening because of feedback from the grand majority of players". They have made the change because this fits with their new designs philosophy, regardless of how many players are affected.

I repeat though you cannot make a claim about it affecting the grand majority of players simply down to how many posts you see in MMO-C/Reddit saying how it has negatively affected them.

[Wyrt]

There seems to be a base hatred for mythic raiders on the main Warcraft forums. So if mythic raiders don't want something to happen the forums suddenly erupt in defense of that change even though they didn't previously care at all about whatever it is that is changing even if it doesn't affect them at all.

[Flame6]

I don't mind the change. Then again I'm not a mythic raider. I'm happy to get away from LC's. They're such drama fests.

[Great Destiny Man]

The only way to fix the PL system where it doesn't screw everyone over completely is to fully implement the gearing strategy that Blizz has been slow pushing anyway. Blizzard developers are notoriously bad at knowing what stats a class needs to play optimally, that has been obvious for years, just look at the stats on some of the class hall sets. They have slowly been trying to force everyone to think that ilvl upgrade means gear upgrade. The answer is simple, go full fledged Diablo style gearing, no stats only ilvl and bonus abilities. Then if you get a piece of gear that is an ilvl upgrade you might be stuck with it, but at least it will be beneficial.

If they aren't going to do that then removing ML is just screwing over progression guilds.

This is sadly true. Its been evident over the last few years blizzard has drawn heavily from D3 for inspiration. That's not a bad thing in itself, I mean WQs and Mythic + take their queues from bounties and Greater Rifts after all.

But D3 is based on steady streams of loot acquisition and any problems with RNG are equalised by the sheer number of loot drops your character deals with so it evens our in the end. That's the complete opposite to WoW.

So yea removal of/changing secondary stats to make sure that it never factors into whether a gear is an upgrade or not seems to be where we're headed, but that from a character diversity perspective that's incredibly boring.

[kamuimac]

I just had to come back and share with you all that someone in this thread is so ultra rustled over their disagreement with my post and they actually took the time to make an alt and send me in-game mail, they were so intent on expressing their babyrage. I enjoyed a good laugh before raid night- I might be right, or I might be wrong, and you're all well within rights to disagree with me, but I can't believe what I assume must be an adult man behaved like this! Amazing, thanks for the chuckle, and I hope everyone else here can enjoy it, too.

and this is another proof how toxic mythic raiding enviroment and how toxic abusive people it attracts.

best proof blizzard is 100% right with removal of ML

next should be removal of mythic raiding to cut all this cancer from game.

[therealbowser]

The demon hunters that will be splitting off to their respective factions to fight a war between their respective people. The Lightforged have very tenuous ties to the world, between a people they’ve abandoned and Turalyon. And besides, the demonic threat has not passed fully. There may yet be worlds that are under attack by the demons, even with the Legion broken. Why should they forsake those to get involved in a war that is none of their business, really.

You're running off of a lot of assumptions. The biggest one is that they aren't doing that on Azeroth. Even from the start, the bulliten board Lightforged draenei you meet in the beginning states that they are "off to hunt down the remnants of the burning Legion on Azeroth", which is a pretty damn good place to start.

Furthermore, protecting Azeroth -- the last Titan, if you recall -- is likely a far more critical goal than randomly hunting down demons. Since the Lightforged draenei know that the greatest threat now is no longer the Legion, but the void lords. They have a lot of compelling reasons to stay, and rejoining their long-lost fellow draenei seems like a pretty big one to me, too.

[Tiwack]

There seems to be a base hatred for mythic raiders on the main Warcraft forums. So if mythic raiders don't want something to happen the forums suddenly erupt in defense of that change even though they didn't previously care at all about whatever it is that is changing even if it doesn't affect them at all.

This is how you make your own- and the rest of the -world crazy.

It's merely people who don't know what to think and don't really care till it affects them. Often the passionate players stub their toes on changes in their data-mining and discuss them. No-one but them were looking at it, but it's picked up and easily blown out of proportion as everyone pitches in. Just trust that no change is random and can be reversed when/if necessary. When you're breathing wow, every minor change is the wowkiller and it freaks people out whenever there's indication of hubris from their PoV. Gamers often just need to chill out and behave like the reasonable civilized individuals that they are and can be.

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I just had to come back and share with you all that someone in this thread is so ultra rustled over their disagreement with my post and they actually took the time to make an alt and send me in-game mail, they were so intent on expressing their babyrage. I enjoyed a good laugh before raid night- I might be right, or I might be wrong, and you're all well within rights to disagree with me, but I can't believe what I assume must be an adult man behaved like this! Amazing, thanks for the chuckle, and I hope everyone else here can enjoy it, too.

Of course they did. You want to belong don't you?

Follow me... or destroy your life to prove me wrong. That's how they operate because they're based in hatred and just want you to either suffer or be under their control.

[therealbowser]

Maybe I missed something earlier that made it seem like you were arguing something else, then. I apologize.

My main standpoint is that ML is not a perfect system, but is better than forcing PL-Only simply due to player agency. Players should be able to determine what to do with their own drops, even if that means giving them up as a trial.

Now here's the important distinction: PL is better than ML ONLY if the restrictions on trading are relaxed(either all the time, or only in Mythic, or staggered over time, whatever). Because if the loot starts in a player's inventory it prevents a Master Looter from abusing their power, but being able to trade allows players to CHOOSE to put their raid ahead of themselves.

If a trial has already agreed to give up their drops as a condition of being a trial, that does not "feel worse than not getting loot" because they've already agreed to it. If you're a trial and you get bent about not getting loot immediately, then you've utterly and completely misunderstood the point of being a trial. A poster in the other thread on this topic describes the situation near-perfectly. It is not a situation where someone is unfairly missing out on loot. That's the key part so many people seem to be missing, and I HIGHLY recommend reading the linked post despite its length.

We'll agree to disagree, I suppose it depends on the person. It's easy to say "Oh sure, take my loot, I just want to be here" thinking you won't get a drop anyways, but what happens when it does? What if you think you're not going to get to stay, and that's a damn find Titanforged piece of loot? Given that you have the option of pretending nothing dropped, it would be pretty compelling. In fact, this literally gives trials a way to cheat raids as well, something they'd likely get spotted for later, too.

It's just not a good system, in my opinion, because trading personal loot is going to make people tempted to do things that are going to hurt the raid or make people feel bad. Master loot is better than that, and I say this strongly disliking the system.

Can you seriously say that if you were a trial in a raid, that you worked your hardest, brought everything you needed, performed competitively, gave up an amazing upgrade for the good of the raid and still got benched/kicked because they found someone better, that it wouldn't make you feel far shittier giving up that gear than the master loot simply delegating drops to other players? I'm hardly a loot whore -- for me, loot is just a means to an end -- but I would feel extremely badly if this happened to me.

Yeah, it's a 'fantasy' scenario, but it's hardly as farfetched as it's being made out to be. Maybe the raider was just not performing well enough, maybe they screwed up somewhere? Won't make them feel any less bad when they gave up an amazing piece of loot that they rightfully earned and still got benched. It doesn't mean that it's 'unfair' of the raid, being 'fair' it won't make the situation any less shitty for them.

Again, the raid isn't doing anything wrong, either, they are just utilizing a system the only way they can. What's why I think Master Loot is better; if they are going to set up a system that will force players to trade personal loot upgrades off, they might as well just keep master loot and do the same thing better. And if they do it for mythic, they'll probably do it for every other difficulty too... I can see it now, "Give me your loot or we'll kick you", even in difficulties as garbage as LFR (and I've seen this kind of shit actually happen, right in front of me, back during Dragon Soul in Cataclysm).

My opinion. Take it as you will. I just can't support this. Again, we can agree to disagree, I guess.

[Deleted]

and this is another proof how toxic mythic raiding enviroment and how toxic abusive people it attracts.

best proof blizzard is 100% right with removal of ML

next should be removal of mythic raiding to cut all this cancer from game.

Of course, if one player is a toxic asshole, means that everyone in that community is... Grow up will you

[Great Destiny Man]

and this is another proof how toxic mythic raiding enviroment and how toxic abusive people it attracts.

best proof blizzard is 100% right with removal of ML

next should be removal of mythic raiding to cut all this cancer from game.

No you're absolutely right, one guy getting a very angry mail from Internet random is definitely proof that Mythic raiding is toxic!

I once got an angry mail from killing someone in a Battleground once. Confirms Battlegrounds are a toxic environment and totally needs to go!

/s

[HumbleDuck]

As raids got harder and harder, the high-end raiding got less and less popular. It's only logical that they cather to the majority, however, blaming it on splitruns is just dishonest.

[Toybox]

As someone who was (and still is) against this change, I'd be lying if it wasn't growing more apathetic towards it.

Yes, it'll make things a little bit more tedious with loot trading/spec swapping (yes I know how PL works). It's not going to help with guild hopping, & it's not gonna help bad players get into better guilds... It's just annoying. Make everything a bit slower... Zzz...

I still think Master Loot could remain quite easily as a Mythic-only option, but whatever. Guess we'll have a lovely time with our addons in BfA. I can't wait to see the "Which player did/didn't loot the boss addon?" to combat people trying to keep their personal loot without scrutiny.

[Deleted]

For me the most disappointing thing will be seeing 30gold on the boss afther hours of group effort.

Removing ML kinda diminishes the social aspect of raiding, in a similar way that the removing of player-specific legendary questlines after Cataclysm did.
While it may be you that gets X loot or Y legandary item; it is only through group effort and for the greater good of the said group that you did. Personal loot just doesn't bring the same feeling at all. At least this has been my experience with ML over the years. ( I personnaly can't remember when loot was even issue in my raids)

Afther reading about what the experience of the majority of the community with ML is, I can however clearly see why Blizzard would remove it.
As usual good guilds and good players will adapt while others won't, to me it is that simple

[SirCowdog]

I suppose it depends on the person.

It's easy to say "Oh sure, take my loot, I just want to be here" thinking you won't get a drop anyways, but what happens when it does? What if you think you're not going to get to stay, and that's a damn find Titanforged piece of loot? Given that you have the option of pretending nothing dropped, it would be pretty compelling.

You're right. Some people are honest and stand by their word when given. Some people are a-holes only out for themselves.

Where would you rather that person wind up? In the role of the Master Looter, with temptation on ALL the loot every time? Or just 1 out of 10-20 people where the damage would be drastically reduced?

In fact, this literally gives trials a way to cheat raids as well, something they'd likely get spotted for later, too.

It's just not a good system, in my opinion, because trading personal loot is going to make people tempted to do things that are going to hurt the raid or make people feel bad. Master loot is better than that, and I say this strongly disliking the system.

Again, where would you rather have the potential for abuse?

It's not simply a matter of saying "PL risks tempting people". You have to also take into account the relative good that would come out each system. Personally I like to believe that the risk of a trial "stealing" loot is far offset and outweighed by the good being created by the community of raiders banding together for a common goal greater than themselves. Something which will be notably absent in PL-Only.

Can you seriously say that if you were a trial in a raid, that you worked your hardest, brought everything you needed, performed competitively, gave up an amazing upgrade for the good of the raid and still got benched/kicked because they found someone better, that it wouldn't make you feel far shittier giving up that gear than the master loot simply delegating drops to other players?

Yes, I can say that I would be ok with that. Do you know why? Because I responsibly accepted the possibility when I signed up and agreed to be a trial. I looked what I was getting myself into full in the face and decided to take my shot anyway.

Would I preferred to have gotten loot because I was good enough? Sure! Who doesn't like victory more than failure? But I'll take my lumps, get better, and try again.

Won't make them feel any less bad when they gave up an amazing piece of loot that they rightfully earned and still got benched. It doesn't mean that it's 'unfair' of the raid, being 'fair' it won't make the situation any less shitty for them.

Ooof.... So basically what you're describing is getting rewarded even though you failed. That player didn't "rightfully earn" anything. As above, they should have recognized in advance what they were signing up for. They agreed to be a trial knowing full well that failure was a possibility. Assuming or expecting that you deserve loot regardless of the outcome, even after agreeing to forgo it, is being selfish, and dishonest with yourself and the raid you're trialing for.

THIS right here? What you just described? That's the entire nature of the disconnect going on in this discussion.

if they are going to set up a system that will force players to trade personal loot upgrades off, they might as well just keep master loot and do the same thing better.

PL with trading is objectively better. It has all the benefits of ML with drastically reduced risk. Even if half the people in the raid abuse it and run off with their personal loot instead of giving it to who they agreed to, it's still better than a ML taking ALL the loot.

I just don't follow your logic at all. It doesn't make sense.

I can see it now, "Give me your loot or we'll kick you", even in difficulties as garbage as LFR (and I've seen this kind of shit actually happen, right in front of me, back during Dragon Soul in Cataclysm).

Then join better groups! Form your own groups! Take responsibility for your choices instead of being so afraid of the consequences(good or bad) that you want to remove EVERYONE'S ability to choose.

Because even if someone tells you "Give me your loot or we'll kick you" you still got the loot DESPITE their attempts to abuse you! And then you're free to find another, more fair group without suffering any harm. How is this bad?

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Guess we'll have a lovely time with our addons in BfA. I can't wait to see the "Which player did/didn't loot the boss addon?" to combat people trying to keep their personal loot without scrutiny.

The funny thing is that there's no way a member of even a halfway serious raid group is going to get away with that. Other members of the raid, the officers, or the raid leader will be checking people's gear to make sure it's optimized. If you show up with magically higher iLVL and can't explain where you got it, what's the first explanation that's going to come to mind?

Anyone who tries to work the system like that in a regular raiding group is going to be caught and kicked. And in PUGs, who cares if you got loot or not?

[Toybox]

COLOR="#417394"]The funny thing is that there's no way a member of even a halfway serious raid group is going to get away with that. Other members of the raid, the officers, or the raid leader will be checking people's gear to make sure it's optimized. If you show up with magically higher iLVL and can't explain where you got it, what's the first explanation that's going to come to mind?

Anyone who tries to work the system like that in a regular raiding group is going to be caught and kicked. And in PUGs, who cares if you got loot or not?

Of course. I was throwing hypothetical situations at my GM because the whole PL change is a bit of a meme in our guild. "What if you can get a mainspec upgrade from a boss but lower the chances by swapping to an off-spec which has a trinket/weapon drop?" was my favourite.

[SirCowdog]

Of course. I was throwing hypothetical situations at my GM because the whole PL change is a bit of a meme in our guild. "What if you can get a mainspec upgrade from a boss but lower the chances by swapping to an off-spec which has a trinket/weapon drop?" was my favourite.

I mean...I guess it's possible that you could try to work the system by setting your loot to a different spec or something. But then you'd be getting drops optimized for that spec instead of your main. I doubt that will work.