Nobody expects the Draeneic Inquisition!! (Mag'har scenario spoilers)

[Magnagarde]

This is like the writing of a brooding, edgy teenager thinking he's deep and unique for saying that there are no heroes or villains. There is no right or wrong. Well that may be true, but when you go too far down that road, it becomes fucking boring.

I can imagine the thoughts that crossed their minds: "Damn, this sounds extremely cool and profoundly thought out."

They should give us the Scourge perspective and we should consider the Argent Crusade evil(ie "the evil paladin killed my undead friend Willy as he was attempting to round up that family and slaughter them!"). Make a book about how Ragnaros talks about the evil Cenarion Circle which is rehabilitating nature on land he scorched.

[dd614]

Blizzard has a habit of turning good, refreshing, new characters into Hitler for no reason whatsoever. Garrosh goes from honorable warchief who is willing to kill his own men for acting dishonorable to KILL ALL NON-ORCS MOUNTAIN OF SKULLS RIVER OF BLOOD guy. Yrel goes from honorable Draenei slave/exarch who fights alongside Durotan against the Iron Horde/Legion to Draenei Hitler.

I dunno, it just seems like some bad writing. But I guess Yrel isn't human and only human heroes can lead the Alliance these days, right?

[Magnagarde]

Its just terrible writing I got banned in the official forums for pointing this out btw. Apparently saying the writing is terrible and blizz needs to do something about it is harassment of the writing team.

Their lore department is harassing itself with drugs of a wide variety.

[Maxilian]

I actually like it a lot, mostly because i like the idea of both timelines having "constants" (Like Draenor getting consumed, and eventually, destroyed by a zealot group that use certain type of magic) while still having many variables

[Kaprin]

So what's the light even about anymore at this point? Was it all just a big scheme to control everyone? I thought it was about being selfless, compassionate, and charitable. Aside from the Scarlet Crusade, who twisted the light to suit their agenda, the light itself always seemed welcoming and mostly peaceful. The Draenei spent 200 years tolerating the orc's religion. Why change now?

Since when does the void "stand for freedom"? Have we just forgotten the black empire? The way the void tries to mindslave everything? I'm so tired of this watering down of the world. It's like everything that used to be "good or bad" is now totally neutral, and everything that used to be morally gray has had its edge taken away (blood elves, arcane magic, etc).

I love moral relativism, but there are ways to introduce this to WoW without making everything equally shitty in their own special ways.

Here's a few examples of (imo) better ways to add some gray area to the world of warcraft:

-If the Alliance had a bit of an edge to it. Turn the night elves back into the savage amazonian badasses of WCIII. Give us an other Garithos.

-If The Blood Elves never stopped dabbling in fel. If they continued down their dark path without going full cartoonish evil or being "redeemed". Purifying the sunwell and making the blood knights goody two shoes was an awful decision in my opinion.

-If arcane magic went back to being a chaotic force from the nether instead of a manifestation of "order". If necromancy was a school of arcane again, and if fel went back to being arcane in its pure, unrestricted form.

-Garrosh never should've gone full evil in MoP. The Horde was getting a bit dark and fascist, and this could've been cool if they balanced it better. We should've gotten Stonetalon Garrosh. Not "kill my own soldiers" Sylvanas.

-If they really pushed the idea of arcane / fel magic addiction again. Dalaran's reckless use of magic got so bad that demons were pouring in from the holes in reality they created. Instead of toning it down, they decided to create the Guardians to clean up their messes for them. The arcane is like a drug for intellectuals. Explore this!

-Go back to the 4 laws of arcane magic. It's powerful, addictive, corrupting, and attracts demons.

There are so many ways to bring moral relativism back to WoW without pushing this "Both sides bro!" mentality.

This summed up my feelings on WoW's story better than I could have. If I could make Blizz writers read this, I would. It feels like many things in the WoW universe have lost their identity over the years.

[kraid]

Garrosh Lightscreen

I fucking died at my job, you ass.

[Psychotrip]

This summed up my feelings on WoW's story better than I could have. If I could make Blizz writers read this, I would. It feels like many things in the WoW universe have lost their identity over the years.

Exactly. It's like everything that used to be morally gray is not "redeemed" and everything that used to be black and white has been watered down made to be "neutral".

There are so many things that used to be gray that Blizzard has just abandoned or made "good". Now they decide to take the Light and put it on the same moral plane as the void? Or at least make it "morally gray"? Ugh.

[Omedon]

You know, perhaps the thing we're doing most wrong here is equating the naaru and the light. The light is a force, but the naaru clearly possess consciousness... and in that, there is room for "evil light."

Now, of course that line of thought leads to "point me to a non-evil Void being."

Well, your characters in WoW can be Void Elves. They are heroic. I found Reshad and Percy and friends quite charming in WoD, but thinking bigger, there might have been some serious "controlling the narrative" going on for us to have the impressions we have of the light...

And, I mean... we still don't know what Elune is... but we know now that her aesthetic isn't geometric: She has displayed tendrils.

[Caerule]

This is what happens when we confuse moral relativism with moral nihilism. In the former, good and evil are hard to define, leading to all sorts of interesting conflicts and debates. In the latter, right and wrong don't exist and everything is equally shitty. There's no point standing for anything because everything is corrupt. The best choice is to sit on the fence and never take a side.

Now, I actually 100% agree with what you said here:



The issue is that the Light was never portrayed this way before. People manipulated the light in this way, like the crusade, but the light itself was like WoW's final bastion of purity and the closest thing we had to a net "good". I keep bringing up MU Shattath and the Sha'tar, but they're the best example of what the light was always about.

Their openness and tolerance could be their weakness. They don't need to be corrupt to be balanced. I've said it a million times: I love moral relativism. But it becomes less engaging for me when absolutely everything is morally gray.

- - - Updated - - -



Dude Algalon is one of the best examples of moral relativism (how drunk are you now?) in the history of WoW. I absolutely loved that, and I wish they went further with this idea of the titans being "lawful neutral" and "big picture" kind of people who see us all as ants in the grand scheme of things. That shit is badass.

The light on the other hand doesn't need to be corrupt or even "neutral". It's okay for there to be one thing in the world of warcraft that's a net good.

The Light does seem to be taking over the position Algalon represented, now that the Titans were basically bought back to being a force of not-super-competent benevolence, rather than cold calculating judges.

But Psychotrip, I do feel like your main concern is that these new revelations change all we have seen about the Light so far. I do not think that is true. I don't think this retcons the good the Crusaders have done, or most of the Naaru like A'dal's group. I don't think showing the dangers of extremism destroys everything good about all related to it. Like, the Muslims of ISIS want to cut off our heads. But there are a billion Muslims that do not.

By that I mean, just because we are now seeing more extremist factions, it doesn't mean all of the Light has now been retconned to be that way. It is very likely that the majority of the Light is just as benevolent as we've always assumed. The two concepts can exist side by side. And the discussion of extremism is pretty on topic for the times, really.

[McCulloch]

If the AU draenei went all in on the light, I'm hoping the AU orcs went all in on the Iron Horde technology.

[KrakHed]

So what's the light even about anymore at this point? Was it all just a big scheme to control everyone? I thought it was about being selfless, compassionate, and charitable. Aside from the Scarlet Crusade, who twisted the light to suit their agenda, the light itself always seemed welcoming and mostly peaceful. The Draenei spent 200 years tolerating the orc's religion. Why change now?

Since when does the void "stand for freedom"? Have we just forgotten the black empire? The way the void tries to mindslave everything? I'm so tired of this watering down of the world. It's like everything that used to be "good or bad" is now totally neutral, and everything that used to be morally gray has had its edge taken away (blood elves, arcane magic, etc).

Just the Scarlet Crusade? What about the Arakkoa? Odyn? Xe'ra? We've seen the Light fracture civilizations as it descended into extremism, which is unfortunately a likely side-effect of the Light being strongest in absence of doubt. When I read how Turalyon finally unlocked his full Light powers, back in the second war, it was fucking creepy. He decided that Orcs had no souls, and that's what gave him faith. Something blatantly wrong, but which he could quiet his doubts with.

People claiming that the Light is Order and the Void is Chaos are wrong. The Light is about morality, believing in what's right even if you're wrong about what that is. Because the belief you're right is more important than being right. It's about the greater good and higher purpose, even if you're delusional. It's why Xe'ra thinks Illidan did nothing wrong, because it all served the greater good and higher purpose in her mind.

The Void is the opposite. It doesn't give a shit about your freedom, because it doesn't care about you. Greater good? Higher purpose? These are lies you tell yourself to sleep better at night. The only real thing is power. The weak will be crushed by the strong, the foolish outwitted by the clever.

The Light teaches that all are one in the Light, the Void perceives that "one" to be a screaming cacophony of conflicting voices each pulling in a different direction. One could drown in it if they aren't willing to swim, and who cares if you've got to step on a few heads to keep your own above water?

[Arrashi]

Exactly. It's like everything that used to be morally gray is not "redeemed" and everything that used to be black and white has been watered down made to be "neutral".

There are so many things that used to be gray that Blizzard has just abandoned or made "good". Now they decide to take the Light and put it on the same moral plane as the void? Or at least make it "morally gray"? Ugh.

Im not sure what exactly are you complaining about. You seem to be angry by both idea of things being bipolar and at the same time hate idea of ambiguity.

[Omedon]

Just the Scarlet Crusade? What about the Arakkoa? Odyn? Xe'ra? We've seen the Light fracture civilizations as it descended into extremism, which is unfortunately a likely side-effect of the Light being strongest in absence of doubt. When I read how Turalyon finally unlocked his full Light powers, back in the second war, it was fucking creepy. He decided that Orcs had no souls, and that's what gave him faith. Something blatantly wrong, but which he could quiet his doubts with.

People claiming that the Light is Order and the Void is Chaos are wrong. The Light is about morality, believing in what's right even if you're wrong about what that is. Because the belief you're right is more important than being right. It's about the greater good and higher purpose, even if you're delusional. It's why Xe'ra thinks Illidan did nothing wrong, because it all served the greater good and higher purpose in her mind.

The Void is the opposite. It doesn't give a shit about your freedom, because it doesn't care about you. Greater good? Higher purpose? These are lies you tell yourself to sleep better at night. The only real thing is power. The weak will be crushed by the strong, the foolish outwitted by the clever.

The Light teaches that all are one in the Light, the Void perceives that "one" to be a screaming cacophony of conflicting voices each pulling in a different direction. One could drown in it if they aren't willing to swim, and who cares if you've got to step on a few heads to keep your own above water?

I like your summary of the light and the Void, and I'll admit I was being lazy by shortcutting to "order and chaos." It's much more than that.

[adamzz]

Garrosh Hellscream, Lightbound Paladin, General of the Alliance army.

That would be hysterical.

Yea, except the Lightbound aren't part of the Alliance.

[KrakHed]

Now, of course that line of thought leads to "point me to a non-evil Void being."

Arakkoa received instruction from the shadows, and had that one greeting.

The shadows smile upon you, commander.

And honestly, doesn't Locus-Walker strike you as a bit off for an Ethereal? Are we even sure that's what he is? What he really is, I mean. Because Nyarlathotep is a thing anyone who's perused Lovecraft would know about, and that's the character he's reminded me from the beginning. He doesn't act like other Void Ethereals. He acts, quite frankly, somewhat like Xal'atath.

And you may notice, he gives off a generally amoral vibe, but without being a dick about it.

[Fritters154]

Yea, except the Lightbound aren't part of the Alliance.

If they join anything, it would be the Alliance. Yrel was a close ally to the Alliance throughout WoD and currently leads the Lightbound. Granted, it would create far too much animosity within the Alliance for both Void Elves and the fanatical Lightbound to be allies.

With the setup Blizz did in Legion for Naaru and other pure light entities to be opposed to free will, I imagine the Lightbound will be opposed to both Alliance and Horde.

[Psychotrip]

You know, perhaps the thing we're doing most wrong here is equating the naaru and the light. The light is a force, but the naaru clearly possess consciousness... and in that, there is room for "evil light."

Now, of course that line of thought leads to "point me to a non-evil Void being."

Well, your characters in WoW can be Void Elves. They are heroic. I found Reshad and Percy and friends quite charming in WoD, but thinking bigger, there might have been some serious "controlling the narrative" going on for us to have the impressions we have of the light...

And, I mean... we still don't know what Elune is... but we know now that her aesthetic isn't geometric: She has displayed tendrils.

The Light does seem to be taking over the position Algalon represented, now that the Titans were basically bought back to being a force of not-super-competent benevolence, rather than cold calculating judges.

But Psychotrip, I do feel like your main concern is that these new revelations change all we have seen about the Light so far. I do not think that is true. I don't think this retcons the good the Crusaders have done, or most of the Naaru like A'dal's group. I don't think showing the dangers of extremism destroys everything good about all related to it. Like, the Muslims of ISIS want to cut off our heads. But there are a billion Muslims that do not.

By that I mean, just because we are now seeing more extremist factions, it doesn't mean all of the Light has now been retconned to be that way. It is very likely that the majority of the Light is just as benevolent as we've always assumed. The two concepts can exist side by side. And the discussion of extremism is pretty on topic for the times, really.

See, under any other cirumstances I'd agree with both of these points. Maybe it's just the Naaru that weren't as perfect as we though, and not the light iself. Or maybe this a lesson in how good teachings can be corrupted and twisted, just like the Scarlet Crusade did.

But this isn't some group of misguided humans twisting the light toward their ends. These are the only representatives of the light we've ever seen in WoW. The closest thing we have to what the light "actually" wants.

Also, this is Blizzard we're talking about. I don't have much faith in their sense of subtlety or nuance lately. It really feels like they're setting up a "both sides are morally equal" situation here.

Really, this all goes back to the issues I have with Chronicles and the way it changed some fundamental aspects of Warcraft cosmology. I loved the "old" lore. I loved the idea of light and shadow being spiritual energies driven by belief and emotion. The light is the collective spirit of love, compassion, tolerance, and charity in the universe. The shadow is our collective doubts, our hatred, our hopelessness, and our cynicism. When someone uses the light for "evil" like the Crusade, it's because they're insane enough to think that their actions are still in line with their beliefs. In reality, they're slowly making the light grow weaker.

In general, the Light is "good" and the shadow is "bad", but that doesn't mean either side is without its perks and drawbacks. Those who follow the light may not have the will to "get things done" or "get their hands dirty" or do what it takes to fight evil. Those who follow the void may try their best to warp it toward the greater good, but at great risk to their sanity.

These ideas have intrigued me since I was a little kid reading the wikis and brushing up on WoW's lore. I loved the idea that the light can be used for "evil", and the shadow can be used for the greater "good". But portraying the light on the whole (or at least its most stalwart representatives) as morally gray and totalitarian just goes too far to me.

When you take these ideas and "re-imagine" them, some of the magic gets lost in my opinion. Now, the light and void are equal and opposite forces, and apparently that means they have to morally equal as well. Sure we always knew the two forces had a connection, and that one couldn't exist without the other, but I never took it so...literally. Again, it's the difference between moral relativism and moral nihilism.

As for the titans becoming benevolent and the light becoming more gray, this is exactly the opposite of what should've happened. The titans being goody two-shoes is so cringe-worthy. It was so cool to imagine the "gods" of warcraft being so "big picture" that we're nothing but ants to them, that our creators care nothing for us as individuals. It's that sort of edge that I feel is missing from a lot of the new lore. The Light, on the other hand, was always a much more passive, possibly weaker force, but an actual, earnest beacon of hope and love in an otherwise morally gray, uncaring world. I hate this "switcheroo" we're doing.

[KrakHed]

I hate this "switcheroo" we're doing.

There's no inherent switch. The Light isn't God. It's the Light and Void together that create reality, meaning that the Void is just as much God as the Light is.

And then we see it, don't we? The Light had always just been the Light, the Void has always just been the Void. The two are missing something fundamental without one another. Some Naaru accept this and others hate it. And that's all. It's not that the Light is just as bad. The Light is just the Light and that's all it is. The Void is just the Void, nothing more.

And so both are broken and flawed because they're operating with half a brain. Unchecked Id running rampant, with unchecked Superego pulling its own bullshit on the other side. Yet ideally, these two forces should be working together and compromising to become a fully functional whole.

This isn't God vs. Satan. This is God having a schizophrenic fit.

[Caerule]

I guess we'll just have to disagree about that one, @Psychotrip.

The way you felt about the Light is how I always felt about the Titans. A protective and nourishing force that, while certainly flawed, are at least a force that cares. The Titans that sacrificed some of their own essence to empower the Aspects. For whom Dwarves, even while under the Curse of Flesh, were still an acceptable creature. The Titans that stood against corruption, destruction, evil and death, and thus felt compelled to intervene, on worlds like Draenor. That noble nature is exactly what made the Fallen Titan's path so dark and impactful.

I think the Light, as a source of potential blind pursuit of purity that also shapes the fate of worlds, does hold the potential to have moral nuance. Though I agree with you that this shouldn't apply to the Light overall. The Naaru meddle in the fate of worlds, races and civilizations as well. They are clearly a force that operates on levels beyond the scope of mortals. I think this offers much more space for individual differences among the Naaru, to give rise to the "Flawed God" or "Cold God" perspective. I think a few assholes on the side considered good isn't a bad idea at all. As long as we do indeed get confirmed that it is an extremist group, and not representative of all of the Naaru.

[Psychotrip]

There's no inherent switch. The Light isn't God. It's the Light and Void together that create reality, meaning that the Void is just as much God as the Light is.

And then we see it, don't we? The Light had always just been the Light, the Void has always just been the Void. The two are missing something fundamental without one another. Some Naaru accept this and others hate it. And that's all. It's not that the Light is just as bad. The Light is just the Light and that's all it is. The Void is just the Void, nothing more.

And so both are broken and flawed because they're operating with half a brain. Unchecked Id running rampant, with unchecked Superego pulling its own bullshit on the other side. Yet ideally, these two forces should be working together and compromising to become a fully functional whole.

This isn't God vs. Satan. This is God having a schizophrenic fit.

Yeah I'm not saying the light is God. Not sure how you got there. The switcheroo I'm talking about is how the titans were originally portrayed as unimaginably powerful but a little too "big picture" to be considered "good" from a human perspective. We're all ants to them. Their concerns are "the greater good" to the extreme. They also want everything to be their way and follow their sense of order. Algalon was one of the coolest examples of this in my opinion. He thinks he's doing us a favor by destroying us all and "re-originating" the planet.

On the other hand, the light was possibly seen as a bit weaker, or at least less direct and more passive, but it was still the closest thing WoW had to a net "good". It was a form of magic that was driven by positive emotion. I always liked that idea, and while I can see mere mortals confusing and exploiting this force, I don't like the idea of the force itself (or its most prominent representatives) being on an equal moral plane as the void.

The "light and shadow" trope is just the easiest, most tired form of moral relativism in fantasy, and it always takes things way too far in my opinion. Like I listed numerous times in previous posts (and I'm sure you don't want me to repeat it again here), WoW was already full of moral relativism before it was all retconned or the factions in question were "redeemed".

We don't need to pull the "both sides are equal" card with the light and the shadow when we have so many other shades of gray that Blizzard has just abandoned.

I guess we'll just have to disagree about that one, @Psychotrip.

The way you felt about the Light is how I always felt about the Titans. A protective and nourishing force that, while certainly flawed, are at least a force that cares. The Titans that sacrificed some of their own essence to empower the Aspects. For whom Dwarves, even while under the Curse of Flesh, were still an acceptable creature. The Titans that stood against corruption, destruction, evil and death, and thus felt compelled to intervene, on worlds like Draenor. That noble nature is exactly what made the Fallen Titan's path so dark and impactful.

I think the Light, as a source of potential blind pursuit of purity that also shapes the fate of worlds, does hold the potential to have moral nuance. Though I agree with you that this shouldn't apply to the Light overall. The Naaru meddle in the fate of worlds, races and civilizations as well. They are clearly a force that operates on levels beyond the scope of mortals. I think this offers much more space for individual differences among the Naaru, to give rise to the "Flawed God" or "Cold God" perspective. I think a few assholes on the side considered good isn't a bad idea at all. As long as we do indeed get confirmed that it is an extremist group, and not representative of all of the Naaru.

I guess the difference is that the Titans were never actually portrayed this way. I mean, back when the RPG was canon they were explicitly called "lawful neutral". Algalon is another early-ish example. I mean, the sheer fact that every titanic creation in uldaman kills you on sight was another hint that the titans may not have been so pure.

But according to Chronicle they can't even "conceive of the notion of evil". Bleh.

So yeah, I always saw the Light as the "actual, genuine" source of "good" within Azeroth, while the titans were the gray area. I guess I also like more "active", "worldly" forces to be more flawed, while the purely "good and evil" stuff is a bit further in the background, or abstract forces for the characters to wield. But that's just me.

I guess I just liked there being one thing in Azeroth that was driven solely by our positive emotions and good intentions.