Battle for Azeroth Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Lyvefire]

I mean all you are suggesting is that instead of gaining the various abilites and passives we get at a specific order, we get to choose at which order we get them (not much since a talent tree still has tiers). I don't think that changes much.

Not really. For one we'd get the passives/traits the old talent trees came with. I exclusively played druid back then so I can't comment on other classes but heart of the wild and leader of the pack were definitely not trivial.

I mean are you seriously prepared to say we're losing nothing with them removing artifact traits in BFA? Because its exactly the same system but with arguably more depth based on how many existed.

A talent tree with no real choices is pointless system. Artifact traits aren't a talent tree, it was just an alternative levelling system for max level characters. And this late into the expansion it isn't even that anymore since you open everythign the moment you hit 110.

Same question to you: Do you think artifact traits are/were always pointless? If so we have nothing to discuss. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

EDIT: Deicide below gets it across well.

[DeicideUH]

A talent tree with no real choices is pointless system. Artifact traits aren't a talent tree, it was just an alternative levelling system for max level characters. And this late into the expansion it isn't even that anymore since you open everythign the moment you hit 110.

It's something to allow you the illusion of choice while upping a new alt, but that would make no effect at max level (by then you'd have all skills). It would reward you often (instead of having several levels without any power gain) and give you choice of how to evolve your character (instead of learning skills in fixed levels).

You could, for instance, activate your Mastery earlier than level 78. Or choose the AoE skill to learn first rather than some utility. Or start with a weak skill and slowly increase its damage as you level up. Think of it as a system focused only on making leveling an alt more dynamic.

[Steampunkette]

I mean I don't know, I read zombie, I expect someone to shoot it, not let it parade in the village square. For all I know it can scream and kill all the villagers or it can explode in poisonous fumes. It's a zombie. It cannot be seen as non-threatening. I don't care if you dress it in pink ruffles and have it sing "tiptoe in the tulips" as it is approaching (well that would be much scarier I guess). Most of humanity was just eaten.

But again, you're reading Zombie. Not Forsaken. Not undead. Zombie.



Zombies are distinct from Forsaken. And even distinct from the term that we were culturally raised on (The Romero Zombie, for the most part, with the infectious bite)

It's not a Zombie, it's a Forsaken approaching. It's a person who can speak, eloquently, and looks dead. Not a mindless shambling corpse but an active being which communicates intentions.

[thilicen]

but sylvanas is evil, brah.

so we must talk about her.

Well at least the bro-nerds are done with fat shaming virtual characters for now so that's something.

[Kereberus]

Gimme that huge build tonight

[Blayze]

You people still arguing about this? Simple fact is raising the undead damns them; it's an evil act, and the Forsaken throw around this damnation like candy.

[Steampunkette]

Why is that? I mean they just broke the Lich King's mental control. The necromancy that animates them did not suddenly alter.
The Forsaken are zombies that make an effort to look less disgusting. Thus they stitch back broken flesh, they replace broken jaws or cover missing eyes with leather, they use preservatives to reduce the rate of decay. They are still zombies. They walk in a stooped posture. Some cannot even speak Common anymore .
They are also inherently magical beings animated by malign magic that was known to take many forms. The Scourge was NOT just zombies after all, there were other forms of undead among them and each of them was far more dangerous than the shambling hordes. A creature that looks like a zombie but acts with intelligence would be a greater threat.

You say the just look dead. But that cannot be right. They are not intact walking corpses after all, not pale humans that smell a bit funky. Most of them are missing the flesh from their joints, missing eyes, jaws. It's not like they are freshly animated; they were running around as packs of shambling zombies for a couple of years before they started breaking the Lich King's control and that understandably caused a lot of wear and tear.

This is the one thing I would most like to know. In general Blizzard has not really told us WHAT happens when people die in WoW. If the act of necromancy forever stains the soul and damns it, that is truly maddening. This reminds me of Crusader Bridenbrad. The best the Naaru could offer him was to save his soul. Which suggest that his soul WAS damned.

A zombie that talks and thinks might be more dangerous. But it might be less dangerous. An unthinking zombie JUST attacks you. One that has speech can be reasoned with. And if they come bearing missives of peace, talking about wanting to join the Alliance. About seeking allies to fight the Scourge that are still in the Plaguelands...

I'm not saying it was unreasonable for them to attack and kill what appeared to be a zombie. Or that they're likely to listen to the zombie. Only that, from an externalist viewpoint: They made the wrong choice. Had they accepted the Forsaken, shit would've gone down VERY differently. And Sylvanas probably would've worked with the RAS to make a plague specifically for Scourge, rather than one to defend herself against humans AND scourge (since in Vanilla she wanted little more than to kill Arthas)

As to Bridenbrad: That makes some hefty assumptions about the Afterlife. What we've -seen- so far indicates that everyone goes to the Shadowlands unless there's some specific power saving them from that fate. It's why Odyn built the Halls of Valor to keep his vrykul from going beyond the veil of death. And it's where Uuna was when she wandered lost and along and encountered soul-shredding monsters that Sylvanas ran afoul of when she killed herself at Icecrown...

It's probably not "You're damned for being undead" as some people purport, but "Everyone's fucked when they die, unless the Naaru, Titans, or Bwon'Samdi intervene"

[huth]

Except we have an example of a Forsaken asking to be released from their vow to leave and having that leave granted on the one hand, and on the other a forsaken leaving without asking to be released from their vow and being killed for it.

Had they asked, we've seen she's willing to give permission to leave. They didn't. It's not the "Best Option" it's just the option they chose. The best option, since someone has asked and been would be to ask first, and then leave in secrecy if you get refused.

The damage is, definitely, done.

You have one example of somebody asking and being allowed to leave. One.

If they thought they had a realistic chance to be granted leave when they ask, do you think they wouldn't have tried? They were aware they were risking death, or they wouldn't have tried to leave in secret. This implies that there is a reason for them to know this. Which further implies that this is far from the first time Sylvanas has acted this way.



Disrespecting a flag of truce being perfidy is a result of international treaties not existent in Azeroth.

[Deleted]

Steampukette hardon for Sylvanas is getting a bit tedious at this point.

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A zombie that talks and thinks might be more dangerous. But it might be less dangerous. An unthinking zombie JUST attacks you. One that has speech can be reasoned with.

Ye thats is true a "can be reasoned with" just like Putress at Wrathgate, ah-a that was WAY LESS dangerous than a random mindless zombie attacking you.


yep

[Friendlyimmolation]

You have one example of somebody asking and being allowed to leave. One.

If they thought they had a realistic chance to be granted leave when they ask, do you think they wouldn't have tried? They were aware they were risking death, or they wouldn't have tried to leave in secret. This implies that there is a reason for them to know this. Which further implies that this is far from the first time Sylvanas has acted this way.



Disrespecting a flag of truce being perfidy is a result of international treaties not existent in Azeroth.

canon disagrees with you here. Blizzard made it clear multiple times on forsaken being allowed to leave if they ask.

I have no idea why people continuously attempt to argue against canon as if it will change if they wish it hard enough.

[gcsmith]

A zombie that talks and thinks might be more dangerous. But it might be less dangerous. An unthinking zombie JUST attacks you. One that has speech can be reasoned with. And if they come bearing missives of peace, talking about wanting to join the Alliance. About seeking allies to fight the Scourge that are still in the Plaguelands...

I'm not saying it was unreasonable for them to attack and kill what appeared to be a zombie. Or that they're likely to listen to the zombie. Only that, from an externalist viewpoint: They made the wrong choice. Had they accepted the Forsaken, shit would've gone down VERY differently. And Sylvanas probably would've worked with the RAS to make a plague specifically for Scourge, rather than one to defend herself against humans AND scourge (since in Vanilla she wanted little more than to kill Arthas)

As to Bridenbrad: That makes some hefty assumptions about the Afterlife. What we've -seen- so far indicates that everyone goes to the Shadowlands unless there's some specific power saving them from that fate. It's why Odyn built the Halls of Valor to keep his vrykul from going beyond the veil of death. And it's where Uuna was when she wandered lost and along and encountered soul-shredding monsters that Sylvanas ran afoul of when she killed herself at Icecrown...

It's probably not "You're damned for being undead" as some people purport, but "Everyone's fucked when they die, unless the Naaru, Titans, or Bwon'Samdi intervene"

I see a zombie walking into town, and I think scourge agent. Seriously, the northern kingdoms fell due to the Scourge infiltrating the land with plagued grain... You think they wouldn't pretend to be 'free and innocent' to start slaughtering the southern kingdoms?

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canon disagrees with you here. Blizzard made it clear multiple times on forsaken being allowed to leave if they ask.

I have no idea why people continuously attempt to argue against canon as if it will change if they wish it hard enough.

Really? So all those people Sylvannas killed for wanting to leave the forsaken in the upcoming book isn't canon? What about the fact she killed those who weren't leaving?

[Maljinwo]

Can we move the whole Windrunner madness to a proper thread and continue talking about BfA?

Like... I dunno...
Fuck I really want playable Zandalari

[Izalla]

I am inordinately excited about this btw: http://www.wowhead.com/news=284533/o...le-for-azeroth

Oh cool! I've been hoarding tiger leather and some of the other mats since Wrath because they got removed and I didn't want to throw them out when they were no longer obtainable. I assume they will make them obtainable again or why have the recipes in the first place, so that kinda ruins my "these don't exist anymore" reason for hoarding.

[Deleted]

Everything will change, when zombies start to sparkle, and smell flowers instead of rot. Believe me. I know people.

[Steampunkette]

You have one example of somebody asking and being allowed to leave. One.

If they thought they had a realistic chance to be granted leave when they ask, do you think they wouldn't have tried? They were aware they were risking death, or they wouldn't have tried to leave in secret. This implies that there is a reason for them to know this. Which further implies that this is far from the first time Sylvanas has acted this way.



Disrespecting a flag of truce being perfidy is a result of international treaties not existent in Azeroth.

One example of someone who swore fealty to Sylvanas and then asked to leave being granted that leave, yes.

Show me a single counter example of some one sworn to Sylvanas asking to leave and being denied.

Until then, there's only evidence for it. And in that evidence is the thought that she wouldn't hold people in her thrall. Whether they thought they had a realistic chance or not is irrelevant. They were bound by an oath and rather than ask to be released from it, they sought to break it. That part is on the ones who planned to defect. (Which is, like, 2 families or something?)

And hey, maybe I'm wrong? Maybe in the chapters we haven't seen, yet, they -do- ask to leave and are refused. That'd blow the whole "I don't hold people in my thrall" thing out of the water and secure Sylvanas as completely schizophrenic about every goddamned thing...

For the record I dislike how Golden is handling her. She flip-flops between thoughts. "I didn't want this and I didn't work for this, it was thrust upon me!" "I'm so proud to be the first female warchief!" Bwuh? "I thought he was a fool who would never pull such an ingenious maneuver to stage a coup!" "He isn't stupid enough to have tried this coup attempt!" Bwuh?

As to disrespecting a flag of truce: Meh, I say. There's no laws in Azeroth that we know of that make it illegal to test poisons and chemicals on prisoners, but it makes the Forsaken evil that they do it, hiding behind 'they don't have that as a law!' doesn't negate it being an evil action.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Really? So all those people Sylvanas killed for wanting to leave the forsaken in the upcoming book isn't canon? What about the fact she killed those who weren't leaving?

Last response I'll add in here since it's already been explained a dozen times over in other threads. She killed them for perceived desertion and treason, and assumed those coming back to her were out of fear of being caught, not real loyalty. Triggered by the reveal of Calia.

The Forsaken starting zones, Ask CDEV and the Traveler book all reinforce that Forsaken can ask to leave and Sylvanas will grant it. That doesn't mean they can desert and it will go unpunished, because they aren't the same thing.

TLDR, it's already been explained, and it's canon.

[Deleted]

Really? So all those people Sylvannas killed for wanting to leave the forsaken in the upcoming book isn't canon? What about the fact she killed those who weren't leaving?

"B-b-b-b-because she is morally grey and kwaii!!" -randon sylvanas fan with hardon so big that is blocking his/her own view.

[Friendlyimmolation]

"B-b-b-b-because she is morally grey and kwaii!!" -randon sylvanas fan with hardon so big that is blocking his/her own view.

Ironic that the only flailing done is always this response when people get called out for trying to shoehorn their opinion in a s equal to canon lore.

[Drekmar]

Some of ya'll here are the equivalent of the brexit gammons.

[OpieOP]

I have no idea why people continuously attempt to argue against canon as if it will change if they wish it hard enough.

Well, to be fair, it already changed once. See Garrosh's transformation through Cataclysm, he wasn't intially set up as the power hungry maniac he had become.