Blizzard spending their time on...

[Kaver]

I was thinking that Blizzard should maybe stop spending time on new systems like Artifact/Azeroth power, Netherlight Crucible etc. and instead use their time to optimize the current class talents. Right now most specs have cookie cutter builds and I think that if Blizzard started spending more time on the talents instead of on new systems, they could make it more possible to really have more talent options. Some talents will of course always be better than other but if the power gap between them could be reduced it would make the 2nd and 3rd best talents in a row more likely to be used.


This is not intended to be an "I told you so" post.

I just wanted to put focus on: "creating new systems vs. optimizing existing systems" for the future expansions.

[sylenna]

first: your opinion that their ideas don't work out.

second: the next minute you cry because there would be 324 playstyles to balance and some of them would be better than others. AND BLIZZARD CANNOT BALANCE HURR DURR.

third: you don't know their teams.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I think its really easy to realize this once you are nearing at the finish line and looking back at the race. Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest.

It is pretty obvious they know they made a mistake and they are trying to fix it. Which makes the whole calling out of it kind of silly. Unless they are handing out money for "I told you so" posts.. if so.. and just in case.. Blizz.. I told you so!

[baskev]

I was thinking that Blizzard should maybe stop spending time on new systems like Artifact/Azeroth power, Netherlight Crucible etc. and instead use their time to optimize the current class talents. Right now most spec has a cookie cutter build and I think that if Blizzard started spending more time on the talents instead of on new systems, they could make it more possible to really have more talent options. Some talents will of course always be better than other but if the power gap between them could be reduced it would make the 2nd and 3rd best talents in a row more likely to be used.

For me it would be cool and give a lot of variance if they per spec could create 3 different playstyles based on the 3 T100 talents. When I say different playstyles you should of course take it with a pinch of salt. I know the "playstyles" per spec would still be based on the same core abilities.

This way a Rogue for example, would have 9 different playstyle based on the 9 different T100 talents. I think this would be a much better use of Blizzard's time instead of investing it in new systems that never really work out as intended.

Yes and no. I think they need to plan out these systems better. Instead of giving us a different form off garrisons each expansion. Or a new type of legendary. Make systems they could add to. This cost less time to reinvent the wheel. And gives you more time to put some effort in other stuff. Like story, or not giving the alliance more horse mounts 42+ ingame. of witch atleast half are pretty much no effort to get for the alliance is enough. But nope 3 new ones are still needed.

[Kaver]

first: your opinion that their ideas don't work out.

second: the next minute you cry because there would be 324 playstyles to balance and some of them would be better than others. AND BLIZZARD CANNOT BALANCE HURR DURR.

third: you don't know their teams.

This is not a critic of Blizzard. I was just bouncing of ideas. Like "Do we really need all these new systems?".

I think they could do a more complete balancing job if they relocated their use of time. From my knowledge, they spent used a lot of time on the Azeroth Power system in Bfa. Not long again they completely changed it and it is now looking to be a pretty arbitrary system. I think they sometimes overcomplicate their ideas instead of just working with what they already have and keep it simple.

So far, some of their newer systems has not done what they told us they would do. Mainly in relation to more choices of customizing our characters.

[Tradu]

I think its really easy to realize this once you are nearing at the finish line and looking back at the race. Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest.

It is pretty obvious they know they made a mistake and they are trying to fix it. Which makes the whole calling out of it kind of silly. Unless they are handing out money for "I told you so" posts.. if so.. and just in case.. Blizz.. I told you so!

The problem is that this isn't the first time. They keep getting overwhelming feedback telling them something, then instead of acting on it they assure us it's all fine, and then months later they realize that the feedback had a point.

[Kaver]

I think its really easy to realize this once you are nearing at the finish line and looking back at the race. Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest.

It is pretty obvious they know they made a mistake and they are trying to fix it. Which makes the whole calling out of it kind of silly. Unless they are handing out money for "I told you so" posts.. if so.. and just in case.. Blizz.. I told you so!

It is not intended to be an "I told you so" post.

I just wanted to put focus on: "creating new systems vs. optimizing existing systems" for the future expansions.

Maybe they could change their mindset about this. Of course a new game needs some new content, but I also think they could come a long way with just continue working on existing content/systems.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

The problem is that this isn't the first time. They keep getting overwhelming feedback telling them something, then instead of acting on it they assure us it's all fine, and then months later they realize that the feedback had a point.

Won't happen. Some kids will never learn this because they wanted to play allied races so bad a little while back but they made most of there money off BFA already. ALREADY. A whole community baited. Hook, line, and sinker.

[Deleted]

I was thinking that Blizzard should maybe stop spending time on new systems like Artifact/Azeroth power, Netherlight Crucible etc. and instead use their time to optimize the current class talents.

I'm pretty sure it's different teams that manage these systems.

There may be a production manager that oversees how the whole system works, but I don't think one team is responsible for both class design and itemisation. In fact, I'm certain that isn't the case.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly think there's room for discussion about the difference between polishing and producing, but I really don't think it's a situation where designers are robbing Peter to pay Paul. I just think that, perhaps, there's a bit of a problem with establishing the 'why' of design intent.

For what it's worth, I think this is a problem across the game. It's starting to creak a little under the weight of a decade's worth of systems, and things like the item squash are just one example.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

It is not intended to be an "I told you so" post.

I just wanted to put focus on: "creating new systems vs. optimizing existing systems" for the future expansions.

Maybe they could change their mindset about this. Of course a new game needs some new content, but I also think they could come a long way with just continue working on existing content/systems.

Everyone has known this for years. Blizzard constantly is trying to change things that do not need to be changed. For some reason they feel expansions are just as much about changing core features/systems to the game as they are about just launching new content/design. No kidding. But they won't learn that by people buying the product before they can even take a look at it.

THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD. They do not listen to words they watch profit lines. Sadly they learned though pre-orders and stashing features in there that make them non-refundable after use that they will get most the money they need for an expansion. Then added enough things into the game like coins, mounts, race change, realm xfer, and mounts/pets (not to mention people that just sub) that numbers matter less than whales that float the game.

[Kaver]

Everyone has known this for years. Blizzard constantly is trying to change things that do not need to be changed. For some reason they feel expansions are just as much about changing core features/systems to the game as they are about just launching new content/design. No kidding. But they won't learn that by people buying the product before they can even take a look at it.

THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD. They do not listen to words they watch profit lines. Sadly they learned though pre-orders and stashing features in there that make them non-refundable after use that they will get most the money they need for an expansion. Then added enough things into the game like coins, mounts, race change, realm xfer, and mounts/pets (not to mention people that just sub) that numbers matter less than whales that float the game.

But I guess we can't really do anything else than keep telling them... the other option is probably giving up and play something else. And right now I don't have any good alternatives for a MMO other than WoW.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm pretty sure it's different teams that manage these systems.

There may be a production manager that oversees how the whole system works, but I don't think one team is responsible for both class design and itemisation. In fact, I'm certain that isn't the case.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly think there's room for discussion about the difference between polishing and producing, but I really don't think it's a situation where designers are robbing Peter to pay Paul. I just think that, perhaps, there's a bit of a problem with establishing the 'why' of design intent.

For what it's worth, I think this is a problem across the game. It's starting to creak a little under the weight of a decade's worth of systems, and things like the item squash are just one example.

I agree.

It just seems like they recently have focused a lot on trying to make more choices to customize our characters and I think they just need to focus on one simple system...

If they per spec can make 3 different T100 talents that all works pretty well, I'm more than happy. I don't need Legendaries, Artifact weapons etc. Just give us something simple that works.

[Deleted]

If they per spec can make 3 different T100 talents that all works pretty well, I'm more than happy. I don't need Legendaries, Artifact weapons etc. Just give us something simple that works.

The reality is that we're living in a business world that understands how subscriptions work.

The evidence suggests that players come back for new content, consume it, and then unsubscribe again. The spikes around expansions are a key part of the business model nowadays, and Ion Hazzikostas has already gone on record to describe the cyclical nature of subscriptions in today's player base. The players that stick around and maintain a subscription are less of a target nowadays, and that's the group that might want the type of focus you're talking about.

I should add:

I haven't the data to back this assertion up, it's just a feeling. The facts might contradict me, but the circumstantial evidence seems to fit.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

They have quite clearly focused on making the base of the game more stable so they can add things like heart of azeroth and azerite gear, then take them away at the end to be replaced by something else. This is probably why we have seen the least class changes from expansion to the next in this cycle. I know it's not a popular opinion but i like it, you can't just keep adding permanent stuff like new skills every expansion without taking stuff away endlessly.

I also think this was the perfect time to do it. The end of burning legion did mark an end of an era and this is as close as we'll probably get to wow 2.0. There surely will be big changes somewhere down the line but my guess would be that these changing systems are going to be the meat of new expansions for a while and the base classes are going to be sanded into even more to be somewhat boring but to a state that accommodates any new kind of systems they are making.

[Rogalicus]

They have quite clearly focused on making the base of the game more stable so they can add things like heart of azeroth and azerite gear, then take them away at the end to be replaced by something else. This is probably why we have seen the least class changes from expansion to the next in this cycle. I know it's not a popular opinion but i like it, you can't just keep adding permanent stuff like new skills every expansion without taking stuff away endlessly.

Which permanent skills they've added in WoD, Legion and BfA that justify deleting two thirds of the spellbook?

[Understarmor]

first: your opinion that their ideas don't work out.

second: the next minute you cry because there would be 324 playstyles to balance and some of them would be better than others. AND BLIZZARD CANNOT BALANCE HURR DURR.

third: you don't know their teams.

fourth: what the fuck does your post even mean? You make ZERO sense....

[Deleted]

Classes should work perfectly WITHOUT talents full stop. Talents should be perks that you add on to enhance your class not make it function properly, no matter what you do there will always be a cookie cutter build that is the most optimal.

Even if you broke talents down to something basic like doing a grand total of 10 damage.
1. Does 1 dmg every 1 second for 10 seconds
2. Does 4 damage 2.5 second cd
3. Does 5 damage instantly and 5 damage after 10 seconds, 10 second cd

Option 1 is a fire and forget dot
Option 2 does less damage because it requires more gcds that could be spent on something else
Option 3 is a fire and forget dot but is better than option 1 because it does upfront damage meaning on average it will do more in cases where mobs die before the 10 seconds

You could probably make up completely different arguments on why option 1 is best or option 2 is best (perhaps it actually gets taken off gcd and can be macroed) or option 3 is the best, the point is you will never have true balance with talents. That is why classes should work completely 100% without talents, they should be perks added on that enhance your gameplay or give quality of life improvements, not the only way for a class to do X or Y, Most talents couldn't be more boring if they tried anyway.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

Which permanent skills they've added in WoD, Legion and BfA that justify deleting two thirds of the spellbook?

I am saying they removed a lot (not 2/3) to have room to make per expansion temporary systems instead of adding skills. My guess was that they pruned for WoD to make room for skills then changed their philosophy when they saw it wasn't working.

For legion they made the bases for classes to accommodate changing systems. This is why we see so few changes going into bfa, they are actually happy with what they are doing and that's a pretty good thing in my opinion. I understand people not liking it, but i like if it leads to changing the world, gear and encounters more than my character. Changing from legendaries and artifact weapons into azerite gear + heart of azeroth is a big change in itself. Not liking that change is fine but i don't understand the complaints about lack of class changes.

[Rogalicus]

I am saying they removed a lot (not 2/3) to have room to make per expansion temporary systems instead of adding skills. My guess was that they pruned for WoD to make room for skills then changed their philosophy when they saw it wasn't working.

For legion they made the bases for classes to accommodate changing systems. This is why we see so few changes going into bfa, they are actually happy with what they are doing and that's a pretty good thing in my opinion. I understand people not liking it, but i like if it leads to changing the world, gear and encounters more than my character. Changing from legendaries and artifact weapons into azerite gear + heart of azeroth is a big change in itself. Not liking that change is fine but i don't understand the complaints about lack of class changes.

People are not happy because most considered Legion's design the lowest point in game's history. It's no wonder that statements like 'Hey, now that we've hit rock bottom, I guess we'll stop sweeping changes and focus on iterating' aren't met with joy.

[Nnyco]

talents are already pretty close but people will call em superior when they do like 10-15k more dps on sim

[In Ogres We Trust]

Honestly, he has a point. Instead of optimizing their current content and features, Blizzard seems to spend a strange amount of time on new systems, e.g. the interface for the AH is still atrocious, yet we're getting Island Adventures, Campaigns, etc.