Blizzard should unlock allied races for everyone with the 8.0 patch / bfa launch?

[mickybrighteyes]

actualy quests ARE restricted by your progression in a story. how do i know? becasue on one of the alts, i never bothered advancing her class hall, since she leveled up via invasions, but i still did missions for artifact power item on her only 2 followers. it took a while but I got them all the way to blue AND gave them upgraded armor from broken isles... and guess what? until I progressed her actual class hall? she still only had 1 artifact power and follower xp mission. and nothing else. xp missions do not show up until you progress your story further. reputation reward missions at lower follower ARMOR level don't reward as many rep tokens. there are days when I don't see rep missions at all, let alone correct ones. and yes, they do expire in a little over 24 hours and you get new set of missions. they don't just sit there waiting for you, they reset. daily. at least.

well of course your class hall story is required for unlocking class hall activities... I was referring to how you don't need to do, say, Broken Shore loremaster cause you ONLY need to have a level above 98/101/103 for the various quests to open up for your class hall. Your class hall quests probably staying under 7~ quests or at least staying under 10 different locations (cause you'd have 2-3 quests being worked simultaneously at each location unless you're on a druid cause then you have 15+ dungeon runs cause fuck them).

so yeah you have to complete the class hall storyline to at least unlocking your helm to have the basic missions available... I wasn't talking abuot THAT though.


edit:

and if legion is the most annoying... wow, you must have missed out on some horrible rep grinds. here we have dungeons, questlines, multiple sources for rep tokens, and repeatable quests all giving rep options.

[schwarzkopf]

They already are unlocked ... not sure what the issue is ?

Everyone who played Legion has them.

[Whitedragon]

With the 8.0 patch on the way i feel like it would be the perfect moment to unlock the 4 allied races for everyone.

The people who wanted early acces already got them and now its time for everyone to enjoy these races. We payed enough for this expansion to have them included. Blizzard can't actually think that everyone who's coming back for bfa wants to spend their time grinding boring legion content right?

What are your toughts on this?

The only thing I would agree to is maybe increasing the rate at which we earn rep from legion, and maybe ungating the Night fallen quest chain. Past that like everything available from old content, it will always be their for toughs who want it, and the memory of not having it right away will fade once something else is announced to take the spotlight away from that small chunk of the game.

[Yizu]

With the 8.0 patch on the way i feel like it would be the perfect moment to unlock the 4 allied races for everyone.

The people who wanted early acces already got them and now its time for everyone to enjoy these races. We payed enough for this expansion to have them included. Blizzard can't actually think that everyone who's coming back for bfa wants to spend their time grinding boring legion content right?

What are your toughts on this?

What makes BfA grinding more fun for a new player coming in the game? Isnt it more of the same thing? If you are bored of the game its probably not for you anymore.

[Hitei]

First off... new players gaining access to a thing that you had WAY before they did doesn't retroactively invalidate the fact that you had access to that content WAY before they did. Your "hard work" was rewarded with super early access to races that everyone else would eventually get later, when the content becomes irrelevant.

I can't believe the number of people who manage to completely miss the irony of screaming about how entitled newer players are, while also screaming about "NO ONLY I CAN HAVE THE THING I DON'T WANT NEW PEOPLE TO GET IT WITHOUT SUFFERING THE SAME TEDIUM I WENT THROUGH."

The thing is... it's being made to do Legion content in order to gain access to BFA content. I don't actually mind the concept of having to grind up a rep to unlock an Allied race, that's fine... IF the rep is in the same expansion that the Allied race is tied to.

And don't give me any of that "OH BUT LIGHTFORGED AND HIGHMOUNTAIN ARE LEGION CONTENT" guff. If I need to buy BFA to access them, they're BFA content.

It has nothing to do with invalidation and everything to do with there being zero reason to promote whiny instant gratification. If you want completely optional rewards, you do the things that reward them. There is zero reason to change it. Just like there's zero reason to give every Netherwing Drakes and BC Talbuks. Because they are optional rewards, and if you want them, you can play the game and unlock them.

I couldn't be assed to do Kurenai rep or Netherwing during BC, so when I decided I wanted those mounts, I went back and did the bead farming and dailies. Oh no! Such suffering! Such inhumane torture! What do you mean I have to fly over to a zone and do some stuff for a little bit? If New players can't be assed to play the MMORPG and do MMORPG things like easily and steadily earn reputation with a faction, they can stay in Fortnite dabbing. Reward do not need to be handed out to appeal to people who don't want to play the game.

1. You have to buy BFA to unlock the Allied races. Therefore, the Allied races are BFA content. Tying them to a Legion rep grind doesn't somehow magically make them Legion content, it just locks them behind Legion content.
Unless you can find me even a single example of a mount or transmog that is unlocked exclusively through old content, but requires you to buy the latest expansion to access. (Hint: you can't)

2. Optional rewards that are being used to sell BFA should be relevant to BFA content.

Death Knights are a paid feature of Wrath, yet you needed a level 55 (read: you had to quest from 1-55) in Vanilla content to play one. And do you know what people who started in Wrath and wanted to play a DK did? They quested to 55 and then made one! Shocking I know, playing the game instead of wanting it to give you things so you don't have to.

I think they should make them available after you finish each of the Allied Race questlines (Argus, Highmountain, Suramar). Exalted reputation is completely unnecessary.

It only makes sense in the case that Allied Races would be truly allied with you at Exalted.

So literally all of them? Because why do you expect a race to permanently join your faction and die for you just because you're friendly?

[Mixxy]

They already are unlocked ... not sure what the issue is ?

Everyone who played Legion has them.

The issue is that there are people who didn't play Legion. People who buy BFA, and then get told they can't have all the BFA content, because they didn't play Legion.

And yes. The Allied races are BFA content. If you need to buy BFA to get them, they're BFA content.

[Phlegethon]

With the 8.0 patch on the way i feel like it would be the perfect moment to unlock the 4 allied races for everyone.

The people who wanted early acces already got them and now its time for everyone to enjoy these races. We payed enough for this expansion to have them included. Blizzard can't actually think that everyone who's coming back for bfa wants to spend their time grinding boring legion content right?

What are your toughts on this?

No.
And ofcourse they can.

[Mixxy]

It has nothing to do with invalidation and everything to do with there being zero reason to promote whiny instant gratification. If you want completely optional rewards, you do the things that reward them. There is zero reason to change it. Just like there's zero reason to give every Netherwing Drakes and BC Talbuks. Because they are optional rewards, and if you want them, you can play the game and unlock them.

Just repeating the word "optional" over and over doesn't make your argument any better. It's a video game, everything is optional. New races are optional, new classes are optional, new raids are optional. You could just make a Human Warrior and spend your entire life killing bores in Elwynn Forest, happy in your stance that any other content is "optional".

Netherwing Drakes don't require you to buy Wrath to access. Neither did the Talbuks. Pretend for a second that when Cataclysm opened up class options, we were told that you could only access them by earning every single Wrath of the Lich King achievement. If you think that would've been fine, then you're a lost cause.

I couldn't be assed to do Kurenai rep or Netherwing during BC, so when I decided I wanted those mounts, I went back and did the bead farming and dailies. Oh no! Such suffering! Such inhumane torture! What do you mean I have to fly over to a zone and do some stuff for a little bit? If New players can't be assed to play the MMORPG and do MMORPG things like easily and steadily earn reputation with a faction, they can stay in Fortnite dabbing. Reward do not need to be handed out to appeal to people who don't want to play the game.

Again, you're overlooking the problem. The Kurenai rep was introduced in BC, and was a part of BC content. Having to do BC content to unlock BC rewards is fine. It's good. That's good.

The problem is that the Allied races aren't Legion content. If you need to buy BFA to get them, they're BFA content. If the Allied races didn't require a BFA purchase, we wouldn't have a problem. If they required BFA reps (like the Allied races coming in the future), we wouldn't have a problem. But neither of those things are the case. So, we have a problem.

It's not a good precedent for Blizzard's design going forward. Do you really want them adding less and less new content to future expansions, because they can just put the new rewards behind old content? That's not sustainable. It doesn't work for anyone, except the people who'd happily keep paying a subscription fee even if Blizzard stopped releasing new content entirely.
And if you're one of those people... good for you, I guess.

Death Knights are a paid feature of Wrath, yet you needed a level 55 (read: you had to quest from 1-55) in Vanilla content to play one. And do you know what people who started in Wrath and wanted to play a DK did? They quested to 55 and then made one! Shocking I know, playing the game instead of wanting it to give you things so you don't have to.

Oh, you almost made an actual point there. But no.
Questing from 1-55 is getting through the content, progressing past it. Each level feeds into the next in a single line from start to finish. No grinding, no time-gating, no sitting around waiting for new dailies to pop up... no stopping.

Needing to be level 55 to access Death Knights is just needing to be UP TO WRATH in order to play the Wrath content.

What's more, the Death Knight offers a completely unique playstyle and game experience to people who decide to make one, AND it continues where their last character left off.
Allied races offer nothing different, nothing special... and they start out 90 goddamn levels lower than the character you used to unlock them. The character a new player presumably just finished doing all of the levelling with. And now they get to... yay, do it all again. Probably in the same class, because they presumably just did 110 levels of quests, and a few weeks worth of World Quest grinding, on the class they want to play.

And that's the thing. While they sit around waiting for most of a month for more World Quests to pop up, they're actively not playing in BFA content. They're stuck in Legion, doing a rep grind.

The Legion rep requirements on Allied races is literally forcing our hypothetical new player to miss out on BFA content one way or the other. Either they do the Legion rep grinds and are kept away from BFA's new zones and levels... OR they go into the new BFA quests, and have to miss out on working on unlocking the new race.


And lastly...

Shocking I know, playing the game instead of wanting it to give you things so you don't have to.

You know what else would be "playing the game" to get access to the content? Tying it to BFA reps, or making it require you be up to BFA to gain access to. That's playing the game.

[Hitei]

Oh, you almost made an actual point there. But no.
Questing from 1-55 is getting through the content, progressing past it. Each level feeds into the next in a single line from start to finish. No grinding, no time-gating, no sitting around waiting for new dailies to pop up... no stopping.

Needing to be level 55 to access Death Knights is just needing to be UP TO WRATH in order to play the Wrath content.

What the fuck are you even talking about? Do you think each level of rep doesn't feed directly into the next? It's an extremely simple straight line from start to finish, and I will go ahead and point out, FAR, FAR quicker than 1-55 in Wrath was.

Needing to be level 55 to access Death Knights is needing to do old content to access a feature in Wrath.
Needing to be exalted to access an Allied Race is needing to do old content to access an old reward in a new system.

The Death Knight is more out of place in both effort required and the level of its out of place nature, because Death Knights are actually a primary feature of Wrath, and also a major part of the story--as opposed to the allied race system being a feature, and the Legion allied races being entirely fucking tied to Legion.

What's more, the Death Knight offers a completely unique playstyle and game experience to people who decide to make one, AND it continues where their last character left off.
Allied races offer nothing different, nothing special... and they start out 90 goddamn levels lower than the character you used to unlock them.

Wow, it's almost like the are essentially minor cosmetic rewards that are highly optional and don't offer additional content or quests beyond their brief intro. But I'm sure you had a point somewhere in here, where you blantantly pointed out exactly why they don't fucking need to be made easier to do, when Death Knights were significantly more of Wrath's content (read: 1 of 1 class with entire questing zone, three specs, tier armor, class hub), and still locked behind a similar system.

The character a new player presumably just finished doing all of the levelling with. And now they get to... yay, do it all again. Probably in the same class, because they presumably just did 110 levels of quests, and a few weeks worth of World Quest grinding, on the class they want to play.

And that's the thing. While they sit around waiting for most of a month for more World Quests to pop up, they're actively not playing in BFA content. They're stuck in Legion, doing a rep grind.

The Legion rep requirements on Allied races is literally forcing our hypothetical new player to miss out on BFA content one way or the other. Either they do the Legion rep grinds and are kept away from BFA's new zones and levels... OR they go into the new BFA quests, and have to miss out on working on unlocking the new race.


And lastly...

You know what else would be "playing the game" to get access to the content? Tying it to BFA reps, or making it require you be up to BFA to gain access to. That's playing the game.

No, they sure as shit didn't just finish doing all of the leveling, because, wow, would you look at that, you get a free level 110 for buying BFA and can immediately jump into allied race unlocking.

Let me go ahead and break that down for you:

In BfA you unlock the allied race and level ONE character, and now have TWO characters ready to enter BfA content ("b-but it's wasted! The new player will clearly use the same class twice because they are mentally disabled!")

In Wrath you unlock the DK, and then level the DK to 70 (OH NO, MORE FORCED OLD CONTENT), AND have to level the original alt to 70 to have two characters for Wrath.

I love how, in your world, people have to just not do BfA content at all, and can only wait around for World Quests. It's not like, you know, they have a 110, right there that they can go do BfA stuff on, and level, and quest, and do dungeons, and gear up, and then take a few minutes to do world quests on the side--oh, no, our hypothetical new player is an idiot incapable of understanding you can do things, and so obsessed with playing a minor alteration of an existing race that they will stand around Argus waiting for quests to pop up instead of playing the game.

You know what else would be "playing the game" to get access to the content? Tying it to BFA reps, or making it require you be up to BFA to gain access to. That's playing the game.

You mean like all the BfA allied races (you know, the ones actually relevant to BfA that have to do with BfA storylines) are?

Keep your instant gratification shit where it belongs, not in an MMO.

[WowIsDead64]

Grinding reps to unlock something - is new trend. You know, some people still grind Tanaan at 110 just to unlock flying there. Do you think Blizzard would kill cash cow, rep grind is?

[Mixxy]

What the fuck are you even talking about? Do you think each level of rep doesn't feed directly into the next?

I guess I should clarify: I meant that reps don't feed into anything else. They're all in their own little isolated bubble of content. They don't feed into each other, they don't connect into past or future content. Levelling through Burning Crusade leads directly into levelling in Wrath. Hitting Exalted with the Argent Crusade doesn't somehow connect to questlines in the Twilight Highlands, or faction grinds in Hyjal.


Not gonna bother addressing anything else you've said because you're just repeating yourself and dismissing anything I say with "OH BUT IT'S STILL PLAYING THE GAME THOUGH" while completely and utterly missing the actual point. You've clearly already made up your mind and a discussion just isn't gonna go anywhere.

[Alvito]

If they are going to remove something it should be the need to have a 110 character on each faction to get them all. The rep required can be satisfied by any toon on either faction to needing a 110 to do a few silly quests is absurd.

[Mixxy]

If they are going to remove something it should be the need to have a 110 character on each faction to get them all. The rep required can be satisfied by any toon on either faction to needing a 110 to do a few silly quests is absurd.

You could handwave that away by pointing out the free 110 boost that comes with BFA, but that really only works if new players are made aware that they'll need a 110 on each side to have access to every race.
Which they aren't.

[Cosmic Janitor]

If they are going to remove something it should be the need to have a 110 character on each faction to get them all. The rep required can be satisfied by any toon on either faction to needing a 110 to do a few silly quests is absurd.

Don't you get the ingenious gameplay they've designed here? You get a boost, to boost a character, to do a quest and a few weeks of rep grind, only to need another boost or at least a race change to get to play the actual character you wanted. They could teach those saints that sell poor old people some thermo blankets a lession in kindness and benevolence.

[Hitei]

I guess I should clarify: I meant that reps don't feed into anything else. They're all in their own little isolated bubble of content. They don't feed into each other, they don't connect into past or future content. Levelling through Burning Crusade leads directly into levelling in Wrath. Hitting Exalted with the Argent Crusade doesn't somehow connect to questlines in the Twilight Highlands, or faction grinds in Hyjal.

They feed directly into the allied race choosing to join you, because you've done so much for them rather than helping them out for an hour and them deciding to permanently join and die for your faction. You know, the entire point of the system?

Not gonna bother addressing anything else you've said because you're just repeating yourself and dismissing anything I say with "OH BUT IT'S STILL PLAYING THE GAME THOUGH" while completely and utterly missing the actual point. You've clearly already made up your mind and a discussion just isn't gonna go anywhere

Because it is playing the game, pretty obviously. I'm sorry that you just recently started playing the game and think questing is the only part of the playing the game, but 14 years of reputations existing should tell you otherwise, and reputation with reputation rewards existing in every single one of the SEVEN expansions, should tell you that they are part of playing the game.

Maybe you should try playing something else? It doesn't sound like you want to play an MMORPG (In case you've never heard of the term, it refers to a game genre, which is heavily built around slow and steady progression based on grinding).

[Mixxy]

They feed directly into the allied race choosing to join you, because you've done so much for them rather than helping them out for an hour and them deciding to permanently join and die for your faction. You know, the entire point of the system?



Because it is playing the game, pretty obviously. I'm sorry that you just recently started playing the game and think questing is the only part of the playing the game, but 14 years of reputations existing should tell you otherwise, and reputation with reputation rewards existing in every single one of the SEVEN expansions, should tell you that they are part of playing the game.

Maybe you should try playing something else? It doesn't sound like you want to play an MMORPG (In case you've never heard of the term, it refers to a game genre, which is heavily built around slow and steady progression based on grinding).

Petty insults now. Nice.

The point is that despite the "14 years of reputations existing"... NEW content has never, ever been locked behind OLD reputations. But, I'm sure a seasoned veteran like you would surely know that right?

[Micronetic]

No thanks. I believe people should actually earn them. They aren't that tough.

We can discuss this better at 9.0, then I might've said yes.

^ This!

/thread

[Alvito]

You could handwave that away by pointing out the free 110 boost that comes with BFA, but that really only works if new players are made aware that they'll need a 110 on each side to have access to every race.
Which they aren't.

The 8 new races are a clear and shameless money grab. Most have extremely weak plot lines most filled with more holes than story. They should have been barber shop options. Since WoW can't get away with DLC content on top of subscriptions they went this route. As far as the free boost goes, it isn't much of a feature if you end up needing it to do the new stuff they added. Blizzard has pushed it as their solution to this issue a few times which seems so empty when they say it.

[Hitei]

Petty insults now. Nice.

The point is that despite the "14 years of reputations existing"... NEW content has never, ever been locked behind OLD reputations. But, I'm sure a seasoned veteran like you would surely know that right?

No, as we've already discussed previously, NEW content was locked behind OLD leveling content. But I'm sure someone who's more suited to playing that new mobile command and conquer game than an MMO probably didn't know that, so don't sweat it.

[Deleted]

The point is that despite the "14 years of reputations existing"... NEW content has never, ever been locked behind OLD reputations. But, I'm sure a seasoned veteran like you would surely know that right?

I'm pretty sure that there was some titles that required you to have old reps at exalted. The Argent Champion for example.