Misinformation about DX12 not supporting true fullscreen?

[Nevcairiel]

But although i accept some input lag through vsync, it doesn't mean i want more input lag because of that stupid WDM.

DWM (Desktop Window Manager) already eliminates tearing on its own, you don't need to enable VSYNC in-game. That way you only get one added input lag, and not twice from DWM+VSYNC - this should then keep your input lag somewhat constant from Fullscreen+VSYNC.

[caervek]

So....

The complaint is that Fullscreen now uses the Borderless Window Fullscreen mode (AKA good fullscreen) instead of ye olde 1990's Fullscreen?

Meh, didn't know anyone still used the old one anyway lol.

[WowIsDead64]

First of all I want to say, that new DXGI versions don't deprecate older ones - they just add new functionality, but core features stay the same. I.e. yeah, there is IDXGIOutput6 interface, i.e. DXGI 1.6 version, but if you will go down through all IDXGIOutput interfaces - core features are almost never overridden. And interface, that interests us the most - IDXGISwapChain - has never changed.

Biggest things, that encourage me to use true fullscreen, are:
1) Basically you can't change display mode in windowed fullscreen mode. ResizeTarget method only changes window size in windowed fullscreen mode, but not display mode itself. What you can actually change in windowed mode - is back buffer size only. So, if you want to play in different video mode - you wouldn't be able to.
2) DWM isn't unloaded in windowed mode. And this mean lesser amount of resources for your game. Basically, if you have other programs using VRAM - they'll take this VRAM from your game, causing lags, when swapping it.
3) GPU constantly works at high temperature, even when I Alt-Tab to browser to read something or watch YouTube, that I do very often due to whole WQ nature - they consume more time on flying from point A to point B, than actually playing the game.

[Vynx]

Alt tabbing with full windowed is a pain as it is.

Not if you have Win 10.
Regarding fullscreen and windowed fullscreen, during summer I prefer to play with fullscreen, since I alt-tab a lot and during that time the GPU cools off. Less noise, less heat, less power consumption.

[draynay]

So....

The complaint is that Fullscreen now uses the Borderless Window Fullscreen mode (AKA good fullscreen) instead of ye olde 1990's Fullscreen?

Meh, didn't know anyone still used the old one anyway lol.

I have to use it because theres a super fun bug with one gsync monitor and one non-gsync where if you try to run windowed fullscreen it randomly drops the refresh rate from 144hz to 24hz which is just hilarious every time it happens. If the way things work with BFA has me running windowed fullscreen without that bug then I'll be happy, and I haven't noticed the horrible frame drop during beta so far.

[WowIsDead64]

P.S. If it's Microsoft's initiative, then we should blame MS. I don't use Win10 due to exactly this reason - their "improvements" cause more problems, than benefits. That's why I can't personally check, if true fullscreen has been removed from DGXI itself, i.e. full screen mode behaves just like fullscreen window now and DXGI fullscreen state is no longer functional. Exclusive fullscreen has always been about having full control over your computer - if I wanted to switch my monitor to certain mode for gaming, I could surely do it. Now all options are just "fake", like in OpenGL, cuz monitor actually always works in desktop mode, all ingame options affect back buffer only and software/hardware conversion is used to "emulate" real hardware-accelerated video mode. I.e. removal of exclusive fullscreen - is just another reason to delay migration to Win10 on as long time, as possible.

[TOM_RUS]

3) GPU constantly works at high temperature, even when I Alt-Tab to browser to read something or watch YouTube, that I do very often due to whole WQ nature - they consume more time on flying from point A to point B, than actually playing the game.

How about adjusting your background FPS so it doesn't?

[DJ117]

Oh fuck I hope not. My acer predator xb271hu gets downscaled from 165hz to 60hz in windowed mode.

[Mafic]

It is a big, big mistake for a subscription based MMORPG like WoW not to have true full screen mode for BFA. Blame Microsoft if you want but Blizz is the one forcing this through when they have many years before they had to make the decision.

[Cracked]

P.S. If it's Microsoft's initiative, then we should blame MS. I don't use Win10 due to exactly this reason - their "improvements" cause more problems, than benefits. That's why I can't personally check, if true fullscreen has been removed from DGXI itself, i.e. full screen mode behaves just like fullscreen window now and DXGI fullscreen state is no longer functional. Exclusive fullscreen has always been about having full control over your computer - if I wanted to switch my monitor to certain mode for gaming, I could surely do it. Now all options are just "fake", like in OpenGL, cuz monitor actually always works in desktop mode, all ingame options affect back buffer only and software/hardware conversion is used to "emulate" real hardware-accelerated video mode. I.e. removal of exclusive fullscreen - is just another reason to delay migration to Win10 on as long time, as possible.

Windows 10 completely redid how "Borderless windows" work and there should no longer be any performance penalty (coming from windows itself, YMMV if your GPU drivers aren't cooperating nicely). For that reason, all calls to windows kernel to create Fullscreen windows will instead be treated as if you asked for Borderless (aka Fullscreen Windowed).

I don't know when exactly this will become "enforced" by the core, but that is the plan, and it's been the plan for quite a few years now (I can't find the article now, I think it was on the old MSDN before all the changes). If you get any FPS drops, you shouldn't be so quick to blame the game or MS, my suspicion is that most of the fault lies with GPU vendors currently.

[schwarzkopf]

2) Second thing - fullscreen mode isn't provided by DX12 itself.

TLDR - DX12 doesn't support full screen mode.

So Blizzard were correct in their statement, thanks for the info.
Never been able to use full screen anyway as it screws up with multi-monitor.

[Velerios]

So....

The complaint is that Fullscreen now uses the Borderless Window Fullscreen mode (AKA good fullscreen) instead of ye olde 1990's Fullscreen?

Meh, didn't know anyone still used the old one anyway lol.

Sorry, but it's not "good fullscreen" if the PC still renders the desktop and other windows needlessly. Not sure if they actually managed to negate the performance in dx12 completely with windowed fullscreen, but right now i don't run any games that works only in windowed fullscreen (even dx12 games)

So right now i pretty much doubt that blizzard really managed to do it right.

In the end for people who only runs 1 screen, windowed fullscreen does not provide any benefits to total fullscreen, even if you use a browser.

- - - Updated - - -

TLDR - DX12 doesn't support full screen mode.

So Blizzard were correct in their statement, thanks for the info.
Never been able to use full screen anyway as it screws up with multi-monitor.

*facepalm* Sometimes it's better to READ the next sentence too. The library is provided with windows, but it's not developed by dx12. Does not change that it's still supported even for dx12. Just that the DX-library itself does not provide it, rather it's windows.

[schwarzkopf]

*facepalm* Sometimes it's better to READ the next sentence too.

I read the entire thing, twice over. The point is that as Blizzard said the DX12 API doesn't support full screen, and they are correct.

Sure a different API does ... but that requires more development time to implement, probably a lot more.

[caervek]

In the end for people who only runs 1 screen, windowed fullscreen does not provide any benefits to total fullscreen, even if you use a browser.

It does, even if you only have one screen the old 90's style has a significant delay if you alt tab between programs (I.E WoW, Discord, Chrome, Twitch, etc). The modern borderless version just works instantly, this can be quite critical.

[cparle87]

What I see in all such threads on official forums - is that all this facts are being simply ignored, i.e. it's standard "Blizzard are always right" pink-glasses-fanboy argument.

Darnit man. I was so close to admitting that you actually made a good post, and you had to ruin it with your usual "Blizz is ignoring the negative facts" bile that you always spew. Ah well. Maybe next time. Hope springs eternal.

[WowIsDead64]

I read the entire thing, twice over. The point is that as Blizzard said the DX12 API doesn't support full screen, and they are correct.

Sure a different API does ... but that requires more development time to implement, probably a lot more.

Read it for the 3rd time. Since D3D10 all video mode handling code is implemented in separate library - DXGI, as DXGI is shared between several other libraries, such as video rendering libraries. I.e. D3D itself is for rendering only and DXGI is for all video mode things. Both D3D11 and D3D12 use exactly the same DXGI devices, cuz DXGI is tied to OS version - not to D3D version. But of course, as any other interfaces, it should be backward compatible, i.e. new DXGI interfaces should be inherited from old ones - not to be completely new ones. So, you just can't say "D3D12 doesn't support fullscreen video mode" - it's just plain misinformation. D3D12 has just nothing to do with video mode. As fullscreen state is set via DXGI and D3D11 uses exactly the same DXGI devices, as D3D12 - then if D3D11 supports fullscreen mode, then D3D12 should support it too. Another thing - if Microsoft have disabled fullscreen video mode in DXGI itself or even at kernel level. But it isn't the same, as "D3D12 doesn't support fullscreen video mode". It's "Microsoft disabled fullscreen video mode, cuz they still do everything to discourage migrating to Win10".

Why am I against this change? Just because I still don't use Win10 (exactly due to forced chances like this) and not going to till moment, when it will be absolutely necessary (may be ReactOS will be good enough at this point to switch to it). And in my OS true fullscreen mode is still functional and I want to continue using it.

[Gaidax]

In Legion beta there also was not fullscreen mode either. I guess it's some sort of beta thing.

[grexly75]

In Legion beta there also was not fullscreen mode either. I guess it's some sort of beta thing.

Interesting never knew that, so will be very interesting indeed to see what happens when the prepatch drops and then when BfA goes live..

[Pannekaker]

In Legion beta there also was not fullscreen mode either. I guess it's some sort of beta thing.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...age=9#post-161

[Axaion]

First of all I want to say, that new DXGI versions don't deprecate older ones - they just add new functionality, but core features stay the same. I.e. yeah, there is IDXGIOutput6 interface, i.e. DXGI 1.6 version, but if you will go down through all IDXGIOutput interfaces - core features are almost never overridden. And interface, that interests us the most - IDXGISwapChain - has never changed.

Biggest things, that encourage me to use true fullscreen, are:
1) Basically you can't change display mode in windowed fullscreen mode. ResizeTarget method only changes window size in windowed fullscreen mode, but not display mode itself. What you can actually change in windowed mode - is back buffer size only. So, if you want to play in different video mode - you wouldn't be able to.
2) DWM isn't unloaded in windowed mode. And this mean lesser amount of resources for your game. Basically, if you have other programs using VRAM - they'll take this VRAM from your game, causing lags, when swapping it.
3) GPU constantly works at high temperature, even when I Alt-Tab to browser to read something or watch YouTube, that I do very often due to whole WQ nature - they consume more time on flying from point A to point B, than actually playing the game.

on 3, have you considered, or tried using the ingame frame limiter when the window is not the active window?, ive seen a lot of people use 144fps max when the window is active, and ..also 144fps limit when its not, which is just useless